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Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
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brovol Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
All I know is that I have been having a lot less sex now than twenty years ago, and I'm for sure not going to have ANY more kids EVER! So maybe these articles are right.
12-31-2019 01:59 PM
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BrewtownBronco Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(12-28-2019 08:15 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  It really pisses me off how the conventional wisdom seems to be that college in Michigan should only be for people smart enough and wealthy enough to get into either UM or MSU. And if you can't get into either school, you are banished to community colleges if and until when you get accepted to either of our fine elitist institutions or you attend bland commuter colleges dominated by the big two universities.

Having more than a handful of four-year degree universities in Michigan is a big strongpoint and a big benefit to raising your kids in the state. Getting a four year degree matters, despite all the naysayers that rip the quality of our education. WMU develops bright, hardworking and ambitious students regardless of if they got rejected from MSU or UM or any other school.

And having schools like the MAC schools around allows students to meet friends from all over the state (and sometimes the country) and get a broader exposure to the world and people and potential careers than what they get at their local CC or commuter college.

The REAL perpetrators in all of this is our spineless politicians who have sold voters a fairy tale for 50 years of how they shouldn't have to pay taxes for anything. College in Michigan is overly expensive now because pols and voters don't want to pay for them. Screw them.

Amen brother (or sista)
01-03-2020 03:07 PM
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DrDavis Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Why would anyone ever want to leave Michigan?

The weather is fantastic (in July and August), taxes are super low (except for that 4.25% state income tax and the 2.4% Detroit income tax), The days are sunny the majority of the time (51% which ranks near the bottom for states).

The cost of in state tuition in Michigan is the 6th highest with an average cost at $12,930 per year. https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loa...llege#nogo
01-06-2020 10:25 AM
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DrDavis Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Quote:Posted by Charm City Bronco - 12-28-2019 07:15 PM

The REAL perpetrators in all of this is our spineless politicians who have sold voters a fairy tale for 50 years of how they shouldn't have to pay taxes for anything. College in Michigan is overly expensive now because pols and voters don't want to pay for them. Screw them.

That's it Charm - tax people more. That ought to want them to stay a Michigan resident. It is working out very well for the state of New York. Just ask them...but you are going to have to travel to Florida where a good number of them have moved to escape the extremely high tax rate in NY.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/4305...pire-state[/quote]
01-06-2020 10:31 AM
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r7carlsn24 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Unless forced to, I can't see a scenario where CMU, WMU, GVSU, Oakland or EMU, merge with anyone. I could see Ferris and SVSU joining up, maybe pulling in LSSU as well. Tech and Northern could be an option, but that seems unlikely as well.

As for CMU, I think our enrollment problem is because of a couple of issues. I think the main issue has been poor leadership over the last decade and the belief that students from the Metro Detroit area would continue to come regardless of how much recruitment we did. With the growth of GVSU and OU, there is simply more options for our largest recruitment area and we didn't give it enough focus. I've been impressed with President Davies, but things will not correct themselves quickly and I don't anticipate we'll ever get back to where we were 10ish years ago.

The other issue I think is the location, Mt. Pleasant isn't for everyone. I absolutely loved it, but can understand why people may not. I was accepted to WMU, planned to attend, took a visit and knew afterwards that it wouldn't be a good fit for me. You have to go to a place that makes you comfortable and location plays a role into that. WMU is in an urban area. GVSU, not far from Grand Rapids and the lake. Oakland in an Urban area, etc. CMU is a college town, but outside of Mt. Pleasant there's not much around. That's not going to change so it's up to the leadership to determine how to overcome that issue.
01-06-2020 11:07 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 11:50 PM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-06-2020 11:40 PM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-06-2020 11:07 AM)r7carlsn24 Wrote:  I was accepted to WMU, planned to attend, took a visit and knew afterwards that it wouldn't be a good fit for me. ..... WMU is in an urban area.

Huh, I wonder why that was
01-07-2020 08:27 AM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

That's right. We should smash all round college students into the square hole because if you aren't an electric engineering major you are worthless. All college education should be nothing but aimed toward serving corporate masters.

Only five possible degrees for career development---nothing else. Heaven forbid you have career aspirations to do anything else than five degree fields...you should have been smart enough and wealthy enough to go to MSU or UM!

Enjoy community college!
01-07-2020 08:31 AM
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r7carlsn24 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-07-2020 08:27 AM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:07 AM)r7carlsn24 Wrote:  I was accepted to WMU, planned to attend, took a visit and knew afterwards that it wouldn't be a good fit for me. ..... WMU is in an urban area.

Huh, I wonder why that was

Well, I grew up in Metro Detroit and currently live in Metro Detroit, so your assumption of not liking a school due to the fact it's in an urban setting is incorrect. It was strictly the size of the campus along with the fact that I hadn't quite decided what I wanted to study. Did a year at a CC while figuring all of that stuff out.
01-07-2020 09:37 AM
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

You raise some good points. While I do not agree 100 percent (the World needs more than engineers, sorry) we do need to focus on marketable degree granting programs.

We also need to reduce the cost of higher education by eliminating excessive administrative, non-classroom, expenses. Yes, that could include athletics (does Michigan r-e-a-l-l-y need 5 D-I football programs?). However, I would start by eliminating any campus position, or program, with the words "Diversity," "Sustainability," and/or "Inclusion" in the title. Put that $ into academics, research, and scholarships.
01-08-2020 09:24 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-07-2020 08:31 AM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

That's right. We should smash all round college students into the square hole because if you aren't an electric engineering major you are worthless. All college education should be nothing but aimed toward serving corporate masters.

Only five possible degrees for career development---nothing else. Heaven forbid you have career aspirations to do anything else than five degree fields...you should have been smart enough and wealthy enough to go to MSU or UM!

Enjoy community college!

When did I say only 5 careers? I mentioned 5 and added 'something tangible'. If you can't wrap your brain around that statement without dropping your womb you're none too crisp.

I suggested universities stop trying to compete with colleges for 'traditional curriculum', ie Liberal Arts major. Do you have a problem with that, or do you just have your teat in a wringer because I stepped on Humanities at Western?

This is why anything that smacks of actually thinking in this forum is a waste of time, it confuses and frightens some folks and they react with butt-hurt and panic.

[Image: good-goo-let-the-butthurt-flow-through-y...471836.png]
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2020 11:38 PM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-11-2020 11:31 PM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-08-2020 09:24 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

You raise some good points. While I do not agree 100 percent (the World needs more than engineers, sorry) we do need to focus on marketable degree granting programs.

We also need to reduce the cost of higher education by eliminating excessive administrative, non-classroom, expenses. Yes, that could include athletics (does Michigan r-e-a-l-l-y need 5 D-I football programs?). However, I would start by eliminating any campus position, or program, with the words "Diversity," "Sustainability," and/or "Inclusion" in the title. Put that $ into academics, research, and scholarships.


Charm City's denseness must be contagious. When did I suggest that 'the world needs only engineers'? I listed 6 curriculum as an example of the type of focused education that Western should offer-engineering, medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching, SOMETHING TANGIBLE.

I suggest that humanities and Liberal Arts type traditional education be left to Colleges and not state universities. That's my feelings and I'm confident they're widely shared in the general public, who want a better ROI for their education Dollar in the state of Michigan.

Capiche??
01-11-2020 11:47 PM
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-11-2020 11:47 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 09:24 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

You raise some good points. While I do not agree 100 percent (the World needs more than engineers, sorry) we do need to focus on marketable degree granting programs.

We also need to reduce the cost of higher education by eliminating excessive administrative, non-classroom, expenses. Yes, that could include athletics (does Michigan r-e-a-l-l-y need 5 D-I football programs?). However, I would start by eliminating any campus position, or program, with the words "Diversity," "Sustainability," and/or "Inclusion" in the title. Put that $ into academics, research, and scholarships.


Charm City's denseness must be contagious. When did I suggest that 'the world needs only engineers'? I listed 6 curriculum as an example of the type of focused education that Western should offer-engineering, medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching, SOMETHING TANGIBLE.

I suggest that humanities and Liberal Arts type traditional education be left to Colleges and not state universities. That's my feelings and I'm confident they're widely shared in the general public, who want a better ROI for their education Dollar in the state of Michigan.

Capiche??

Fair enough. But take the time to actually read the 2nd paragraph of my post.
01-12-2020 07:38 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-12-2020 07:38 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-11-2020 11:47 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  
(01-08-2020 09:24 AM)GullLake Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:40 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  The days of the state universities replacing traditional colleges and being everything to everybody are over with. State universities need to get entirely out of the 'classical education' field and be what they really are-trade schools for career seekers.

That means they should only offer majors in fields that translate into getting an occupation-Engineering, Medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching-something tangible that promises a good paying job to offset the cost of higher education. In other words, to justify the cost of 4 years learning your trade.

Non-core electives should be done away with. You go to university to learn a trade, not to get exposure to humanities or whatever. That's up to you on your own, if you have the interest or desire.

I have 3 degrees in Electrical Engineering and have been gainfully employed for 44 years-since I left WMU in 1976. Never been laid off and picked up two more degrees in my spare time. I have NO PROBLEM admitting I learned a trade at Western. Sure, I used a slide rule and calculator instead of a welding probe or plumbing tools, but it's still a trade.

I have an interest in classical education and i thought once I retire to take classes in those topics-History, Philosophy, writing, etc.. All those classical college oriented fields that I missed focusing on a technical field. But I have NO REGRETS learning my trade at Western-and that is what state universities should focus on going forward. Students don't go to WMU or CMU to 'float' or party anymore because it's simply too costly. They focus on learning a career.

And leave the classical education for traditional colleges, like Albion, Calvin, Hope and Hillsdale. There will still be folks who seek a traditional Liberal Arts education-maybe they come from affluent families, or their family owns a business so they are assured employment when they finish school, or whatever. There will always be enough folks to fill those slots, but it'll probably remain a small segment of higher education just as it was a small segment of folks who went to college before the big state universities were founded.

You raise some good points. While I do not agree 100 percent (the World needs more than engineers, sorry) we do need to focus on marketable degree granting programs.

We also need to reduce the cost of higher education by eliminating excessive administrative, non-classroom, expenses. Yes, that could include athletics (does Michigan r-e-a-l-l-y need 5 D-I football programs?). However, I would start by eliminating any campus position, or program, with the words "Diversity," "Sustainability," and/or "Inclusion" in the title. Put that $ into academics, research, and scholarships.


Charm City's denseness must be contagious. When did I suggest that 'the world needs only engineers'? I listed 6 curriculum as an example of the type of focused education that Western should offer-engineering, medicine, Law, Accounting, Business, Teaching, SOMETHING TANGIBLE.

I suggest that humanities and Liberal Arts type traditional education be left to Colleges and not state universities. That's my feelings and I'm confident they're widely shared in the general public, who want a better ROI for their education Dollar in the state of Michigan.

Capiche??

Fair enough. But take the time to actually read the 2nd paragraph of my post.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph in large part.

We're attempting to come up with a strategy that will save the university/college system in Michigan. Doing nothing assures the closure of one or more state universities and probably some of the colleges as well. WMU in particular can no longer be everything for everybody and the taxpayers of Michigan will assure that stops, one way or another.
01-12-2020 08:55 AM
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Charm City Bronco Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Quote:By
Susan Svrluga
Jan. 14, 2020 at 12:01 a.m. EST

When Erika Hagberg started college at Washington and Lee University, she thought she might want to be a doctor but quickly discarded that idea. She took journalism classes, business classes, music theory, history, calculus, economics, art history. “I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do with my life,” she said.

Twenty-some years later, now director of global sales for Google, Hagberg credits her wide-ranging liberal arts education with preparing her for a demanding business career.

A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million. The results, searchable and sortable by institution, were released Tuesday.

It might seem counterintuitive — especially to parents cringing at tuition bills and poetry seminars. But Hagberg said she quickly learned that in the small classes at Washington and Lee, she had to have done the work, be ready to answer tough questions, appreciate multiple perspectives and be able to explain her ideas effectively.

After graduating in 1997, Hagberg took what she thought was a placeholder job — working at AOL — and soon had the drinking-from-a-fire-hose feeling of learning everything possible in a fast-changing environment. Liberal arts helped teach her to be nimble, and to speak up. “The pace of digital disruption is just incredible,” she said. “You have to be comfortable with that chaos.”

There has been a lot of skepticism about the value of a liberal arts education, a feeling that tends to spike during economic downturns, prompting many students and parents to seek training for a specific career. Some small liberal arts colleges have closed, or considered closing, in recent years.

The Georgetown study finds that the return on a liberal arts education is not typically immediate — at 10 years, the median return is $62,000 — but over the decades of a career, it is solid. Only doctoral universities with the two highest levels of research activity, well-known institutions such as Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fared better in the school’s estimated return on investment. The median 40-year return of $918,000 at liberal arts colleges is more than 25 percent higher than the median for all colleges, researchers found.

Over a long period, the ideal preparation includes education in a field linked to a career, such as engineering, with the addition of general education that allows a person to be flexible and draw on a wealth of knowledge, according to Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the education and workforce center at Georgetown.

“That’s why over a 30-to-40-year period, a liberal arts education does well,” he said.

In Europe, higher education tends to be more directed toward specific careers, he said, while in the United States it’s more typical to have a major and a variety of other classes. “It turns out in an economy where there are a lot of changes . . . that combination makes you more flexible,” he said, “and gives you more opportunity in the long run.”

For some professors, the idea of return on investment from college is antithetical. They would argue that higher education is designed “to make you a better thinker,” Carnevale said, “to pursue knowledge for its own sake, not to get a job or some other extrinsic value.” But most members of the public think of college as a means to employment, he said.

“I have this conversation day in and day out,” said Michelle Chamberlain, associate vice president of advancement and dean of student opportunities at Claremont McKenna College. “When I talk to prospective families, not only do I get the question about, ‘Is this liberal arts education going to pay off?’ — with ‘liberal arts’ in air quotes — but also, ‘I don’t want my son or daughter to be a philosophy major.’ ”

She explains that critical thinking, writing skills, the ability to think across disciplines, the technical classwork, the internship experiences of students — all provide good preparation for the workforce and are things employers are seeking.

The Georgetown study follows a more sweeping analysis by the center using federal data to calculate net present value to estimate return on investment at more than 4,500 colleges and universities across the country. The study takes into account factors including costs, financial aid and future earnings.

In this case, they examined institutions listed by the Carnegie Classification system as Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus — what most people think of as liberal arts colleges, schools primarily offering bachelor’s degrees, and not large research universities.

The researchers found considerable variability within the group of liberal arts schools, with the most selective schools producing significantly higher returns than the median. Schools with high graduation rates tended to have better results. Schools with a high proportion of students studying business, engineering, science, technology and mathematics typically had higher returns on investment, probably because those majors often lead to careers with higher earning potential.

Location seems to be a factor as well, with earnings higher in some parts of the country. So is family income: At Talladega College, where 93 percent of students receive Pell grants, the long-term return on investment was estimated at $432,000

Harvey Mudd College, with its emphasis on science, engineering and math, had the highest ranking among the 200-plus liberal arts colleges for net present value at 40 years: $1.85 million. Washington and Lee was second, with a 40-year return calculated at $1.58 million. Claremont McKenna also ranked among the top 50 of all colleges for its 40-year returns.

At Washington and Lee, there are three accredited programs that most liberal arts colleges don’t have, said John A. Jensen III, dean of career and professional development — its law school, and undergraduate journalism and business programs.

Julianna Keeling was focused on return on investment when she was applying to colleges, she said. Coming from a Richmond high school emphasizing math and science, a liberal arts school wasn’t the obvious choice, especially for someone interested in medicine and in developing plant-based polymers. A full scholarship offer drew her to Washington and Lee, where she took a variety of classes before graduating last year.

“Being forced to take history [and] literature really helped me to open up my mind to other types of ideas, to better find my passion,” Keeling said. For one class, she traveled to South Dakota to learn about Lakota philosophy and culture, ideas about ecology that influence her today.

She launched a company, Terravive, selling consumer products that people can easily compost at home. Did she miss the access to all the labs and resources of a large research university?

“Yes, of course,” Keeling said, “it would be great to have that. But I’m really happy with the education I got. It gave me the confidence to start Terravive . . . and the leadership skills to build this company.”

Hagberg said her professors expected her to be actively involved in class, and that has helped her during her career: When she knows she has the right answer at Google, she speaks up.

“We debate a lot, we challenge each other a lot in this industry,” listening to diverse perspectives and interrogating issues, Hagberg said. “I’m not afraid to have a voice.”
01-14-2020 07:33 PM
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DtownBronco Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-14-2020 07:33 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Quote:By
Susan Svrluga
Jan. 14, 2020 at 12:01 a.m. EST

When Erika Hagberg started college at Washington and Lee University, she thought she might want to be a doctor but quickly discarded that idea. She took journalism classes, business classes, music theory, history, calculus, economics, art history. “I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do with my life,” she said.

Twenty-some years later, now director of global sales for Google, Hagberg credits her wide-ranging liberal arts education with preparing her for a demanding business career.

A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million. The results, searchable and sortable by institution, were released Tuesday.

It might seem counterintuitive — especially to parents cringing at tuition bills and poetry seminars. But Hagberg said she quickly learned that in the small classes at Washington and Lee, she had to have done the work, be ready to answer tough questions, appreciate multiple perspectives and be able to explain her ideas effectively.

After graduating in 1997, Hagberg took what she thought was a placeholder job — working at AOL — and soon had the drinking-from-a-fire-hose feeling of learning everything possible in a fast-changing environment. Liberal arts helped teach her to be nimble, and to speak up. “The pace of digital disruption is just incredible,” she said. “You have to be comfortable with that chaos.”

There has been a lot of skepticism about the value of a liberal arts education, a feeling that tends to spike during economic downturns, prompting many students and parents to seek training for a specific career. Some small liberal arts colleges have closed, or considered closing, in recent years.

The Georgetown study finds that the return on a liberal arts education is not typically immediate — at 10 years, the median return is $62,000 — but over the decades of a career, it is solid. Only doctoral universities with the two highest levels of research activity, well-known institutions such as Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fared better in the school’s estimated return on investment. The median 40-year return of $918,000 at liberal arts colleges is more than 25 percent higher than the median for all colleges, researchers found.

Over a long period, the ideal preparation includes education in a field linked to a career, such as engineering, with the addition of general education that allows a person to be flexible and draw on a wealth of knowledge, according to Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the education and workforce center at Georgetown.

“That’s why over a 30-to-40-year period, a liberal arts education does well,” he said.

In Europe, higher education tends to be more directed toward specific careers, he said, while in the United States it’s more typical to have a major and a variety of other classes. “It turns out in an economy where there are a lot of changes . . . that combination makes you more flexible,” he said, “and gives you more opportunity in the long run.”

For some professors, the idea of return on investment from college is antithetical. They would argue that higher education is designed “to make you a better thinker,” Carnevale said, “to pursue knowledge for its own sake, not to get a job or some other extrinsic value.” But most members of the public think of college as a means to employment, he said.

“I have this conversation day in and day out,” said Michelle Chamberlain, associate vice president of advancement and dean of student opportunities at Claremont McKenna College. “When I talk to prospective families, not only do I get the question about, ‘Is this liberal arts education going to pay off?’ — with ‘liberal arts’ in air quotes — but also, ‘I don’t want my son or daughter to be a philosophy major.’ ”

She explains that critical thinking, writing skills, the ability to think across disciplines, the technical classwork, the internship experiences of students — all provide good preparation for the workforce and are things employers are seeking.

The Georgetown study follows a more sweeping analysis by the center using federal data to calculate net present value to estimate return on investment at more than 4,500 colleges and universities across the country. The study takes into account factors including costs, financial aid and future earnings.

In this case, they examined institutions listed by the Carnegie Classification system as Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus — what most people think of as liberal arts colleges, schools primarily offering bachelor’s degrees, and not large research universities.

The researchers found considerable variability within the group of liberal arts schools, with the most selective schools producing significantly higher returns than the median. Schools with high graduation rates tended to have better results. Schools with a high proportion of students studying business, engineering, science, technology and mathematics typically had higher returns on investment, probably because those majors often lead to careers with higher earning potential.

Location seems to be a factor as well, with earnings higher in some parts of the country. So is family income: At Talladega College, where 93 percent of students receive Pell grants, the long-term return on investment was estimated at $432,000

Harvey Mudd College, with its emphasis on science, engineering and math, had the highest ranking among the 200-plus liberal arts colleges for net present value at 40 years: $1.85 million. Washington and Lee was second, with a 40-year return calculated at $1.58 million. Claremont McKenna also ranked among the top 50 of all colleges for its 40-year returns.

At Washington and Lee, there are three accredited programs that most liberal arts colleges don’t have, said John A. Jensen III, dean of career and professional development — its law school, and undergraduate journalism and business programs.

Julianna Keeling was focused on return on investment when she was applying to colleges, she said. Coming from a Richmond high school emphasizing math and science, a liberal arts school wasn’t the obvious choice, especially for someone interested in medicine and in developing plant-based polymers. A full scholarship offer drew her to Washington and Lee, where she took a variety of classes before graduating last year.

“Being forced to take history [and] literature really helped me to open up my mind to other types of ideas, to better find my passion,” Keeling said. For one class, she traveled to South Dakota to learn about Lakota philosophy and culture, ideas about ecology that influence her today.

She launched a company, Terravive, selling consumer products that people can easily compost at home. Did she miss the access to all the labs and resources of a large research university?

“Yes, of course,” Keeling said, “it would be great to have that. But I’m really happy with the education I got. It gave me the confidence to start Terravive . . . and the leadership skills to build this company.”

Hagberg said her professors expected her to be actively involved in class, and that has helped her during her career: When she knows she has the right answer at Google, she speaks up.

“We debate a lot, we challenge each other a lot in this industry,” listening to diverse perspectives and interrogating issues, Hagberg said. “I’m not afraid to have a voice.”

Using ROI as a metric, I was able to eclipse $1M in career earnings in less than half the time noted in this article with my mechanical engineering degree from WMU's "Community College of Engineering" as it's been so eloquently put. With my program and gen ed requirements I was also able to minor in mathematics and philosophy, and believe me when I say that 4th differential equations is more art than science. Not to mention using my personal vehicle as a test mule for vehicle dynamics testing and chassis dynomometer runs getting some hands-on, wrench turning, knuckle busting real world knowledge while doing classroom work. No master's degree required. So I stand firmly with BroncoPhilly on this one.
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2020 08:33 AM by DtownBronco.)
01-15-2020 08:28 AM
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BroncoPhilly Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-15-2020 08:28 AM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(01-14-2020 07:33 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  Liberal arts---NOT the waste of moeny that BroncoPhiwwy wants everyone to believe they are.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...ts-wrapper

Quote:By
Susan Svrluga
Jan. 14, 2020 at 12:01 a.m. EST

When Erika Hagberg started college at Washington and Lee University, she thought she might want to be a doctor but quickly discarded that idea. She took journalism classes, business classes, music theory, history, calculus, economics, art history. “I had no idea what the hell I wanted to do with my life,” she said.

Twenty-some years later, now director of global sales for Google, Hagberg credits her wide-ranging liberal arts education with preparing her for a demanding business career.

A study from Georgetown University’s Center on Education and the Workforce finds that over the course of a career, a liberal arts education is remarkably practical, providing a median return on investment 40 years after enrollment that approaches $1 million. The results, searchable and sortable by institution, were released Tuesday.

It might seem counterintuitive — especially to parents cringing at tuition bills and poetry seminars. But Hagberg said she quickly learned that in the small classes at Washington and Lee, she had to have done the work, be ready to answer tough questions, appreciate multiple perspectives and be able to explain her ideas effectively.

After graduating in 1997, Hagberg took what she thought was a placeholder job — working at AOL — and soon had the drinking-from-a-fire-hose feeling of learning everything possible in a fast-changing environment. Liberal arts helped teach her to be nimble, and to speak up. “The pace of digital disruption is just incredible,” she said. “You have to be comfortable with that chaos.”

There has been a lot of skepticism about the value of a liberal arts education, a feeling that tends to spike during economic downturns, prompting many students and parents to seek training for a specific career. Some small liberal arts colleges have closed, or considered closing, in recent years.

The Georgetown study finds that the return on a liberal arts education is not typically immediate — at 10 years, the median return is $62,000 — but over the decades of a career, it is solid. Only doctoral universities with the two highest levels of research activity, well-known institutions such as Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, fared better in the school’s estimated return on investment. The median 40-year return of $918,000 at liberal arts colleges is more than 25 percent higher than the median for all colleges, researchers found.

Over a long period, the ideal preparation includes education in a field linked to a career, such as engineering, with the addition of general education that allows a person to be flexible and draw on a wealth of knowledge, according to Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the education and workforce center at Georgetown.

“That’s why over a 30-to-40-year period, a liberal arts education does well,” he said.

In Europe, higher education tends to be more directed toward specific careers, he said, while in the United States it’s more typical to have a major and a variety of other classes. “It turns out in an economy where there are a lot of changes . . . that combination makes you more flexible,” he said, “and gives you more opportunity in the long run.”

For some professors, the idea of return on investment from college is antithetical. They would argue that higher education is designed “to make you a better thinker,” Carnevale said, “to pursue knowledge for its own sake, not to get a job or some other extrinsic value.” But most members of the public think of college as a means to employment, he said.

“I have this conversation day in and day out,” said Michelle Chamberlain, associate vice president of advancement and dean of student opportunities at Claremont McKenna College. “When I talk to prospective families, not only do I get the question about, ‘Is this liberal arts education going to pay off?’ — with ‘liberal arts’ in air quotes — but also, ‘I don’t want my son or daughter to be a philosophy major.’ ”

She explains that critical thinking, writing skills, the ability to think across disciplines, the technical classwork, the internship experiences of students — all provide good preparation for the workforce and are things employers are seeking.

The Georgetown study follows a more sweeping analysis by the center using federal data to calculate net present value to estimate return on investment at more than 4,500 colleges and universities across the country. The study takes into account factors including costs, financial aid and future earnings.

In this case, they examined institutions listed by the Carnegie Classification system as Baccalaureate Colleges: Arts & Sciences Focus — what most people think of as liberal arts colleges, schools primarily offering bachelor’s degrees, and not large research universities.

The researchers found considerable variability within the group of liberal arts schools, with the most selective schools producing significantly higher returns than the median. Schools with high graduation rates tended to have better results. Schools with a high proportion of students studying business, engineering, science, technology and mathematics typically had higher returns on investment, probably because those majors often lead to careers with higher earning potential.

Location seems to be a factor as well, with earnings higher in some parts of the country. So is family income: At Talladega College, where 93 percent of students receive Pell grants, the long-term return on investment was estimated at $432,000

Harvey Mudd College, with its emphasis on science, engineering and math, had the highest ranking among the 200-plus liberal arts colleges for net present value at 40 years: $1.85 million. Washington and Lee was second, with a 40-year return calculated at $1.58 million. Claremont McKenna also ranked among the top 50 of all colleges for its 40-year returns.

At Washington and Lee, there are three accredited programs that most liberal arts colleges don’t have, said John A. Jensen III, dean of career and professional development — its law school, and undergraduate journalism and business programs.

Julianna Keeling was focused on return on investment when she was applying to colleges, she said. Coming from a Richmond high school emphasizing math and science, a liberal arts school wasn’t the obvious choice, especially for someone interested in medicine and in developing plant-based polymers. A full scholarship offer drew her to Washington and Lee, where she took a variety of classes before graduating last year.

“Being forced to take history [and] literature really helped me to open up my mind to other types of ideas, to better find my passion,” Keeling said. For one class, she traveled to South Dakota to learn about Lakota philosophy and culture, ideas about ecology that influence her today.

She launched a company, Terravive, selling consumer products that people can easily compost at home. Did she miss the access to all the labs and resources of a large research university?

“Yes, of course,” Keeling said, “it would be great to have that. But I’m really happy with the education I got. It gave me the confidence to start Terravive . . . and the leadership skills to build this company.”

Hagberg said her professors expected her to be actively involved in class, and that has helped her during her career: When she knows she has the right answer at Google, she speaks up.

“We debate a lot, we challenge each other a lot in this industry,” listening to diverse perspectives and interrogating issues, Hagberg said. “I’m not afraid to have a voice.”

Using ROI as a metric, I was able to eclipse $1M in career earnings in less than half the time noted in this article with my mechanical engineering degree from WMU's "Community College of Engineering" as it's been so eloquently put. With my program and gen ed requirements I was also able to minor in mathematics and philosophy, and believe me when I say that 4th differential equations is more art than science. Not to mention using my personal vehicle as a test mule for vehicle dynamics testing and chassis dynomometer runs getting some hands-on, wrench turning, knuckle busting real world knowledge while doing classroom work. No master's degree required. So I stand firmly with BroncoPhilly on this one.


Thank you.

Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines.

A friend of mine got a Masters in Music at scUM and-after getting the boot in an overseas orchestra-now works as a clerk/substitute teacher/lawn mower on the Left Coast. Sadly, there is not a lot of demand for over-the-hill musicians who haven't established themselves by the time they're 45-50. He was plenty smart enough to be a good engineer/physician/accountant, but didn't have the guidance at home to instruct him to select his major with a little common sense along with his passion for the arts. Too bad, so sad.

As for me, I'm toying with the idea of retiring in a few years-after 44 years in the auto industry. Never been unemployed in that time, picked up my Masters and PhD in electrical engineering along the way. Work mainly on advanced propulsion vehicles these days. When I retire I'd like to take some classes in history and other things I have interests in, but didn't have the time to follow up on during my initial schooling and career. Learning never ends!
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2020 11:40 PM by BroncoPhilly.)
01-17-2020 11:33 PM
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arrows80 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
"Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines."

God, this board is money.
01-18-2020 08:31 AM
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GullLake Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-18-2020 08:31 AM)arrows80 Wrote:  "Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines."

God, this board is money.

Well, it is a step-up from when so many on the CMU board thought what Jerry Seymore and Jimmy King did to DeMarcus Graham was no big deal. That was cheap, crass, and disturbing.

Then there are your dirty Spartans and a fan base that has no trouble with Dantonio bringing a serial sexual assaulter onto campus against the advice of his own AD and assistant coach.

So, yes, a conversation about the virtues and vices of a traditional liberal arts edcuation is "money" by comparison.
01-18-2020 10:37 AM
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wmubroncopilot Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Enrollment declines - WMU dropping, CMU hemoraging
(01-18-2020 08:31 AM)arrows80 Wrote:  "Charm City is obviously a quiche eater who has his teats in a wringer because he majored in Fine Arts and ended up Managing a Cinabun, or something along those lines."

God, this board is money.

How many sexual assaults and coverups do you have to see at MSU before you stop being a fanboy? GFY.
01-18-2020 01:25 PM
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