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How do we fix the division?
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #41
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 09:46 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Vote out every incumbent for starters.
Term limits for seconds.

Eliminate all corporate contributions and politicians on both sides would represent their constituents again. Why? Because that is who would be paying them.

There is a corporate leadership foundation that meets annually. They love the gridlock because it means business as usual for them. But, they also love the gridlock and bickering because it makes a corporate solution to government look more palatable. The more frustrated the electorate the more open they will be to solutions outside of what appears to be a broken system. Too bad that those folks won't realize that the bickering and partisanship is being driven by the corporations paying the campaign funds of the candidates on both sides of the aisle and bidding them to bicker.

There is no form of totalitarianism more abhorrent than that of a corporate top down world where the common person is seen as a renewable labor source and there is no right of redress of grievances and no appeal. You can at least kill a bad dictator. But with a corporate autonomy bad people remain faceless and merciless in their dictates.

Get rid of corporate contributions and consensus becomes the means again by which we resolve our differences and compromise in practice yields a much truer freedom and much more tolerance as all are involved in determining what is best for the whole.

If anyone wants to do a careful study of the locus of most of our national and worldly ills you will find the excesses and biases of our largest corporations behind most of them. But that's what happens when 2% of the people own 95% of the wealth and want to hide behind labels while depriving the majority and aggrandizing themselves.

But as long as the ever less educated masses are taught that the middle class is responsible for the oppression of the poor this crap will continue in spades. The middle class has no power or desire to oppress anyone. They are merely trying to keep from becoming poor. And the poor won't find the resources they need for a better life within the control of the middle class. Instead they should look to the corporate elites who feign to love them, start tax deductible charitable foundations which never seem to trickle down to the poor, and then question why they are being sold those personas as saviors when in reality their corporations are responsible for their oppression and not the middle class.

Ponder of all of that and then perhaps you will begin to see the solutions. As long as you focus on Democrats and Republicans you'll never see the truth, just the perversion of a system which is supposed to represent the people, and you won't understand that those who want you to see them favorably are really the masterminds of all of the confusion.

Major corporations hate all nation state government because what is good for a country, or good for its citizens, is not always good for the profitability and interests of the corporation. They hate treaties and tariffs, and national defense directives. They hate religious division because it is bad for the bottom line so they are against all religions. They hate moral divisions because it is bad for profits, so they are intentionally amoral. They claim to champion minorities but in reality they are only leveraging them against majorities they see as an impediment. Should they ever win everyone will be treated equally, equally miserable that is. So the faces of some of our largest and wealthiest corporate conglomerates and who pose as humanitarians, are actually nothing more than the same old evil in disguise. Minimize their participation in government and you have a better world.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 02:36 PM by JRsec.)
12-19-2019 02:28 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #42
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 02:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Eliminate all corporate contributions and politicians on both sides would represent their constituents again.


I think that runs the risk of taking it from a system of semi-transparent paying directly to politicians into an underground of NCAA style bag men who funnel money on the down low in just as big of volume as before.
12-19-2019 02:35 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #43
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 02:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Eliminate all corporate contributions and politicians on both sides would represent their constituents again.


I think that runs the risk of taking it from a system of semi-transparent paying directly to politicians into an underground of NCAA style bag men who funnel money on the down low in just as big of volume as before.

Not when the persons being paid by the people make and enforce the laws. At least then if the corporate bagmen show up they are punishable by law rather than covered by the law they buy. One way you have a chance to limit some of their damage and hold them accountable. The other way have no chance at all.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 02:39 PM by JRsec.)
12-19-2019 02:38 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #44
RE: How do we fix the division?
I think I fundamentally view it as a bottom up problem. We have a government that reflects that typical stupidity and arrogance of the American voter when it comes to governance. Most HOAs in this country are dysfunctional. If we can't run a damn subdivision well what makes you think we're going to vote in quality candidates elsewhere? Even well informed voters by and large can't tell you who their city or county council members are. The average American can't tell you who the speaker and minority leader are let alone the whips. Most people don't have the time or the energy or the fortitude or a combination of the former to actually become well informed on the various political ideologies. Let alone our country's own political history, how our locality works, geopolitics, how our locality fits in the region, how our region fits into our national whole, how our nation fits into whole of North America, how North America fits into the world. There's not enough hours in the day. I think we've gotten away with a lot because we have the best chunk of real estate on the planet and we had the best founding documents of any country and we've had some cultural bolsters to the underpinnings of those documents like the love of guns and boisterous defense of free speech (until recently). MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN VOTE!

A better solution is to just keep government out of as much as possible and make the barrier to entry for new governance so high that takes millenia to chip away at and corrupt and bloat the government. The trouble is the situations in world history where one is able to make such drastic changes typically follow lots of dead bodies and statistically more often end up getting worse than better. And I think it was also a real mistake to have direct election in the US Senate. Keeping the Senate members beholden to their states was a real check on federal government and the electoral whims of a poorly informed public.
12-19-2019 02:50 PM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #45
RE: How do we fix the division?
I agree with a lot of the suggestions. But I don't see how they ever get implemented, b/c the swamp creatures are the only ones with votes.

IMO, if we continue with this ridiculous scorched earth attitude (weaponizing the executive branch to use on political enemies, anything goes in oppo research, vilifying the opposition with lies, disinformation, etc.), the inevitable conclusion is a split country. Into two or more pieces.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 02:56 PM by TripleA.)
12-19-2019 02:54 PM
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Post: #46
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 02:50 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I think I fundamentally view it as a bottom up problem. We have a government that reflects that typical stupidity and arrogance of the American voter when it comes to governance. Most HOAs in this country are dysfunctional. If we can't run a damn subdivision well what makes you think we're going to vote in quality candidates elsewhere? Even well informed voters by and large can't tell you who their city or county council members are. The average American can't tell you who the speaker and minority leader are let alone the whips. Most people don't have the time or the energy or the fortitude or a combination of the former to actually become well informed on the various political ideologies. Let alone our country's own political history, how our locality works, geopolitics, how our locality fits in the region, how our region fits into our national whole, how our nation fits into whole of North America, how North America fits into the world. There's not enough hours in the day. I think we've gotten away with a lot because we have the best chunk of real estate on the planet and we had the best founding documents of any country and we've had some cultural bolsters to the underpinnings of those documents like the love of guns and boisterous defense of free speech (until recently). MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN VOTE!

A better solution is to just keep government out of as much as possible and make the barrier to entry for new governance so high that takes millenia to chip away at and corrupt and bloat the government. The trouble is the situations in world history where one is able to make such drastic changes typically follow lots of dead bodies and statistically more often end up getting worse than better. And I think it was also a real mistake to have direct election in the US Senate. Keeping the Senate members beholden to their states was a real check on federal government and the electoral whims of a poorly informed public.

Most HOAs work very well. However there are occassionally jackasses who want to ignore the rules. And there are occassionally petty tyrant politicians (typically Democrats or suburban housewives with nothing better to do) who try to tell everyone what to do.

But those are the exception.
12-19-2019 03:10 PM
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Post: #47
RE: How do we fix the division?
As a branch of my corporate practice I spent 5 years representing HOA nonprofit corporations in all sorts of sh!t storms

Good Lord, the amount that are a hot mess is incredibly high. People are broken.

Bad enough I know I’ll never live in one. Lol.
12-19-2019 03:31 PM
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Post: #48
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 09:59 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I would also make it truly public service.

Lessen the pay, but provide housing and travel stipends as well as health care, etc. And then take away the many ways of virtually anonymous fundraising that currently happens by moving to a government funded model.

My thought on this was a scale... as in any candidate who meets certain requirements gets a fixed amount of funding. Not one dollar more. Your first job is to win an election on a budget... which sends one message... as opposed to the first message to try and raise more money(taxes) and win mostly because you spent more, which is part of why we are where we are. It's part of why we have Trump.

Maybe like $0.50 per constituent for a small office up to $2 per constituent for President. Hadn't given the details much thought... but it makes sense to me in concept.
12-19-2019 03:56 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #49
RE: How do we fix the division?
Haven’t read the whole thread, but to the headline-question: divisions don’t get “fixed”, IMHO. They endure until one side reaches a point that continuing the fight (however literal or figurative you want that to be) just isn’t worth it and decide to move on.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 04:09 PM by Native Georgian.)
12-19-2019 04:08 PM
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Post: #50
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 03:31 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  As a branch of my corporate practice I spent 5 years representing HOA nonprofit corporations in all sorts of sh!t storms

Good Lord, the amount that are a hot mess is incredibly high. People are broken.

Bad enough I know I’ll never live in one. Lol.

You see only the problems.
12-19-2019 04:22 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #51
RE: How do we fix the division?
Three words.

"We The People" ~ Gouverneur Morris
12-19-2019 04:24 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #52
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 10:02 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:56 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:49 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:46 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Vote out every incumbent for starters.
Term limits for seconds.

I agree. It won’t ever happen though because the people voting on term limits are the people’s terms who will be limited. One can dream though.

Exactly, and the corruption out of both parties is off the charts......their main business is fleecing the American public........almost all are bought and paid for.

as much as I love the genius of the founders, they intentionally wiffle-balled that one....

w/o term limits across the board, it was inevitable that muh gubbermints would grow in numbers and power....

"public servants"???....shite, that's as plausible if I walk out the door to take a piss and it rains benjamins in a 20 sq. mile radius....

The Founding Fathers had too much faith in the voters controlling their Congressmen at the ballot

A system without term limits encourages seniority as the most senior members bring home the bacon
12-19-2019 04:55 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #53
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 04:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Three words.

"We The People" ~ Gouverneur Morris

"we the people" - the intentional oxymoron of oxymorons - stinkfist
12-19-2019 05:16 PM
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SoMs Eagle Offline
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Post: #54
RE: How do we fix the division?
A good start would be learning how to lose.
12-19-2019 06:00 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #55
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 06:00 PM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  A good start would be learning how to lose.

one first has to understand the fundamentals behind 'humility and respect'....

their faux version has been exposed by the magnificent orange basterd....

they deserve every single bit of poundcake tossed back in the feces...

AIN' THAT A SHAME

they wanted to play.....they woke the wrong mothertruckers....
12-19-2019 06:09 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #56
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 06:00 PM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  A good start would be learning how to lose.

The left never loses well. But the bigger point is this. We are in a life and death struggle for our way of life. I really don't give a damn whether they like losing or not. We need to destroy them because that is exactly their plan for us. It has been the left's solution for all social problems in every atrocity committed in every totalitarian regime in the history of humanity.

It's time the right took a no quarter stance. We need to retake the schools, retake the universities, retake the media, and teach our way of life, which includes patriotism, morality, and standing up for one another, and teach it unabashedly. Because if we don't we won't be around much longer!
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 06:15 PM by JRsec.)
12-19-2019 06:13 PM
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Post: #57
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 04:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 10:02 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:56 AM)Crebman Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:49 AM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 09:46 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Vote out every incumbent for starters.
Term limits for seconds.

I agree. It won’t ever happen though because the people voting on term limits are the people’s terms who will be limited. One can dream though.

Exactly, and the corruption out of both parties is off the charts......their main business is fleecing the American public........almost all are bought and paid for.

as much as I love the genius of the founders, they intentionally wiffle-balled that one....

w/o term limits across the board, it was inevitable that muh gubbermints would grow in numbers and power....

"public servants"???....shite, that's as plausible if I walk out the door to take a piss and it rains benjamins in a 20 sq. mile radius....

The Founding Fathers had too much faith in the voters controlling their Congressmen at the ballot

A system without term limits encourages seniority as the most senior members bring home the bacon

They didn't know that people could make it a full time job.
12-19-2019 07:49 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #58
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 09:46 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Vote out every incumbent for starters.
Term limits for seconds.

There are some genuinely rational and moderate people on both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately they get silenced and have to toe the gang line. I think term limits would take care of lots of the problems alone. Tom Coburn championed this his entire career and I think he was correct. The embedded career politicians are the biggest issue. The longer they stay the more power they obtain and wield.
12-19-2019 08:01 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #59
RE: How do we fix the division?
Division does not need to be fixed. The idea is frightening. Think of all the wonderful places with no division.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 08:13 PM by shere khan.)
12-19-2019 08:11 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #60
RE: How do we fix the division?
(12-19-2019 11:48 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  We use to let states have most of the leeway. California could go hand out needles and human feces bags if they wanted and Utah could go hand out magic mormon underwear if they wanted.

For the last 20 years there's been a steady shift from "let's do things how we want to here" to "let's do things our way everywhere and I don't care who doesn't like it."

Federalism allows variances in governance to better reflect differences in culture and society. We've been steadily dismantling federalism and pushing one size fits all federal level solutions for quite some time in bipartisan fashion. The Democrats passed national federal healthcare. The Republicans passed national federal ID. As long as everybody keeps pushing the chips all in at the federal level we'll either eliminate the relevance and function of state government or tear each other apart trying to force feed an entire continent one size fits all solutions.

This or a voluntary dissolution of the Union are the only answers that I see avoiding bloodshed. If you were stuck in a loveless marriage where each spouse had totally different values and hated one another, you'd get a divorce.
12-19-2019 08:51 PM
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