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I had some communications recently with a member of the coaching staff and was told that they had come to some of the same conclusions as I expressed in our conversation. I mentioned some of the things I have mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago (i.e. lack of outside shooting, poor post offense, and thoughts that more active pressure with at least 10 players involved such as full court, 3/4 court, and half court trapping could help get some steals leading to easier offensive opportunities). I don't know when or how much of it we will see, but I was told that they are looking at some tweaks in order to potentially get more open court opportunities offensively. I took that to mean they would be doing some pressing - certainly more than normal in order to hopefully achieve that goal. They may have just been telling me what I hoped to hear in responding to my comments, so we will see what actually happens between now and the first couple of conference games. It is hard for any coach to change from what they like to do, especially if they have been doing the same thing as long as coach Jones has, so I remain skeptical (but hopeful).

Don’t hold your breath.

(12-12-2019 03:10 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  I had some communications recently with a member of the coaching staff and was told that they had come to some of the same conclusions as I expressed in our conversation. I mentioned some of the things I have mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago (i.e. lack of outside shooting, poor post offense, and thoughts that more active pressure with at least 10 players involved such as full court, 3/4 court, and half court trapping could help get some steals leading to easier offensive opportunities). I don't know when or how much of it we will see, but I was told that they are looking at some tweaks in order to potentially get more open court opportunities offensively. I took that to mean they would be doing some pressing - certainly more than normal in order to hopefully achieve that goal. They may have just been telling me what I hoped to hear in responding to my comments, so we will see what actually happens between now and the first couple of conference games. It is hard for any coach to change from what they like to do, especially if they have been doing the same thing as long as coach Jones has, so I remain skeptical (but hopeful).

Jones has hinted at this in the past two post game comments. I am not sure if you heard his post game after the VCU game but he mentioned this week would be the first chance for the Monarchs to work on some changes. He didn’t say what but he said something to the effect that you can’t just tell the players you want to change their style without practicing it and the past few weeks there has been no time for that. This week they have had time to practice so if there are some changes to be made I expect to see them this week.

My take on this is that coaches often think what we consider to be small changes are significant changes. We already have seen significantly more pressing than JJ has done in the past. I would not expect to see major changes. Coaches are usually pretty stuck in their system and small tweaks feel like monumental shifts to them.

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(12-12-2019 09:32 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  My take on this is that coaches often think what we consider to be small changes are significant changes. We already have seen significantly more pressing than JJ has done in the past. I would not expect to see major changes. Coaches are usually pretty stuck in their system and small tweaks feel like monumental shifts to them.

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I agree with all of your comments. I would add though that Jeff has had the team pressing more - at the end of games mainly - because the team has trailed by substantial margins more this season than they typically have. If not for that then we likely would have seen the same amount of full court press as in years past (which effectively is none at all).

(12-12-2019 09:13 PM)JJMonarch Wrote:  

(12-12-2019 03:10 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  I had some communications recently with a member of the coaching staff and was told that they had come to some of the same conclusions as I expressed in our conversation. I mentioned some of the things I have mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago (i.e. lack of outside shooting, poor post offense, and thoughts that more active pressure with at least 10 players involved such as full court, 3/4 court, and half court trapping could help get some steals leading to easier offensive opportunities). I don't know when or how much of it we will see, but I was told that they are looking at some tweaks in order to potentially get more open court opportunities offensively. I took that to mean they would be doing some pressing - certainly more than normal in order to hopefully achieve that goal. They may have just been telling me what I hoped to hear in responding to my comments, so we will see what actually happens between now and the first couple of conference games. It is hard for any coach to change from what they like to do, especially if they have been doing the same thing as long as coach Jones has, so I remain skeptical (but hopeful).

Jones has hinted at this in the past two post game comments. I am not sure if you heard his post game after the VCU game but he mentioned this week would be the first chance for the Monarchs to work on some changes. He didn’t say what but he said something to the effect that you can’t just tell the players you want to change their style without practicing it and the past few weeks there has been no time for that. This week they have had time to practice so if there are some changes to be made I expect to see them this week.

Yes, I have heard both times that he has mentioned those things, with the first being while he was still in the islands after one of the losses there. I believe that I mentioned as much about that on a former posting a while back.

It was ironic that Jeff first stated the possibility of mixing in a bit more full or 3/4 court press in a post game comment during the tournament in the islands. I had discussed that I felt he needed to do just that with my wife after the end of a game one or two games earlier because the team was not shooting well from outside and was getting next to nothing down in the post. After the 3rd loss there I made the post shown in the link below. I believe that is also the game that Jeff first made a small reference about it as well.

Jeff is reluctant to go all in with something akin to the VCU pressure all the time style, and for several reasons. One is that it isn't the style he is accustomed to coaching, so I presume there is some level of discomfort in using it as a primary defense, or even as an equal defense. Another is that he has already invested dozens of practice hours with the team coaching up the dogged half court man-to-man defense that is in his coaching DNA. He is concerned about that time being all in vain if he parks that horse and hops aboard a different one in mid stream even if some of the defensive techniques are transferable to the other style. He is however concerned about the (thus far) glaring weaknesses that we can all see the team experiencing offensively so much of it will be determined by whether or not he feels the team will snap out of it via more coaching and additional experience/growth by the players over the next several games leading into conference play. I feel like if it doesn't turn around soon then he would be more likely to delve deeper into trying something significantly different like a back court press for more than just 3-5 minutes a game, and he may have already decided to regardless.

To make a significant change in philosophy now has its risk in that it would have to be tried for several games to really determine if it was going to work or not. If it didn't work out for any reason then it could be considered time lost by not further coaching the team to better utilize what you wanted to do anyway (i.e. half court man-to-man, build that wall). On the other hand it could work out well and give the team a lot more easy scoring opportunities and build their confidence along with securing a higher win percentage. What they have been doing so far this season hasn't been very successful and has not shown any significant improvement from game to game during the current 6 game losing streak. That begs the question of how long does he continue to do the same things while hoping for different results, even if he makes a starting lineup change or two in the meantime?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-888840-post-16...id16495255

I’m not a huge analytics guy or anything but I do understand possessions per game and points per possession. It’s obvious this team needs more possessions. More open court layups would be nice. Out of 353 D1 teams we’ve been in the 310s and 320s the last 3 or 4 years in possessions per game. I know that this year we are around 240 something. That’s not a real huge jump but we are definitely trying to force more tempo.
I also understand that to really put on the full court pressure u need to score the ball.

Some really good programs are historically at the bottom in possessions. Virginia is 353 by a ton. St Mary’s, Wisconsin, Purdue. Always in the bottom 10 or so in possessions per game. I’d like to see us more in the middle. But there is still going to be plenty of half court basketball. No matter what tempo we are at we gotta hit more shots. We gotta get more open shots first then we gotta make more shots. hahaha
That’s what I would say as a coach.... “guys u gotta get open more and then you gotta shoot better”

All of us would like more opem layups. Its not as easy as “hey, lets run more.” You start running more, and a couple of factors play in 1) You cant crash the defensive boards as hard and all of a sudden you give up more offensive rebounds. 2) Your defense takes a hit bc its more of an up tempo game and players are leaking out in transition and crashing the glass offensively.

Im not saying its not worth a try but every thing in basketball is intertwined. You really have to commit to whatever style you want to play. That doesnt mean you cant push the pace at certain points, which I hope they do.

But vs a superior team like Illinois, you may want to limit possessions as opposed to increasing them. We have a better chance tp compete for 60 possessions than we do for 75.

All good points above. I am not a fan of all court pressure like a VCU. It opens up gaping holes against teams with a good PG and wings that can slash to the basket. I would like to see that pressure applied more often like 3 to 4 times a game in spurts possibly when a key player is on the bench for the opposing team. It seemed to me a team like Loyola could have been worn down with more full court pressure applied but that’s in the rear view mirror. So many college games come down to the last 4 minutes and right now we are not handling that stretch very well. All the reasons have been spelled out above but as coach Jones said, “we need better guard play”.

(12-13-2019 07:30 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  All of us would like more opem layups. Its not as easy as “hey, lets run more.” You start running more, and a couple of factors play in 1) You cant crash the defensive boards as hard and all of a sudden you give up more offensive rebounds. 2) Your defense takes a hit bc its more of an up tempo game and players are leaking out in transition and crashing the glass offensively.

Im not saying its not worth a try but every thing in basketball is intertwined. You really have to commit to whatever style you want to play. That doesnt mean you cant push the pace at certain points, which I hope they do.

But vs a superior team like Illinois, you may want to limit possessions as opposed to increasing them. We have a better chance tp compete for 60 possessions than we do for 75.

You are missing the boat here Giles. I wasn't talking about "increasing the pace offensively". No one is talking about leaking out players when the shot goes up to get a head start down the court to have numbers. That is a description of what your remarks represent. There is a big difference between that and pressure defense that creates more turnovers which in turn creates more opportunities to have numbers in the open court for easier scoring opportunities. If you wanted to discuss a downside of this it would be that if a team broke down the press then they would likely have opportunities to have some 2 against 1's in the front court. In the half court they could still either play defensive schemes like they have done, or they could extend it out more and/or trap more. It has nothing to do with leaving the defensive rebounds for the other team to get because you approached that any differently than before.

Of course ODU can continue to play at a slow pace and of course everyone already knows that by doing so there will be less possessions and the scores will be less and the games will likely be closer. Everyone has also witnessed a team mired in a 6 game losing streak while doing exactly that. I don't coach the team, you don't coach the team. All I am saying is that it may be time to try something else with this team that has a hard time hitting 3 point shots thus far and has yet to show a respectable post presence. Where does that leave them? By the way, I spoke out 6 months ago about my concerns of their post players this season. A third of the way through the season bears out what I was concerned about back then.

Maybe next year they will have guys that can shoot better, post players that can shoot 50+% in the post and be a legitimate scoring option there, and the coach will have a better offense because of those things. Based upon what we have seen thus far it is hard for anyone to be optimistic about any of those things happening this season. Not saying it is impossible, just that it is hard to see it happening.

CUSA appears to be a fairly weak league this season so they may start getting wins once they start playing those teams while playing similarly to how they have been recently.

(12-13-2019 09:09 AM)JJMonarch Wrote:  All good points above. I am not a fan of all court pressure like a VCU. It opens up gaping holes against teams with a good PG and wings that can slash to the basket. I would like to see that pressure applied more often like 3 to 4 times a game in spurts possibly when a key player is on the bench for the opposing team. It seemed to me a team like Loyola could have been worn down with more full court pressure applied but that’s in the rear view mirror. So many college games come down to the last 4 minutes and right now we are not handling that stretch very well. All the reasons have been spelled out above but as coach Jones said, “we need better guard play”.

I'm not sure that Jeff wants to do it either JJMonarch. I'm sure that he is reluctant to do it in high volume since it isn't his thing so to speak. I also know that he is trying to come up with ways to get more open court opportunities for easier scoring opportunities with this offensively challenged team. Time will tell what he decides to do differently to get there - if anything at all.

Well, that's a lot of words here and I sure didnt read them all. But, what they have been doing sure wasn't working. Time to try and mix in something else.

Guess the Clemson guy gets to play tonight? Isn't there a game tonight?

The biggest change coming is the PG with Curry is not working. Look for Green and Wade to play more at the top while giving Hunter time to get ready. He’s our future PG. Change will see Oliver and Godwin together on the wings with Green at the top. Curry could be more effective rotating on the wing. The talent is there for a championship but the offense is not connected yet.

This doesn't make any sense. Curry has been one of our better players. Green is a poor PG. Hunter is not ready to take over that responsibility. Wade isn't a PG

(12-13-2019 11:22 AM)north beach monarch Wrote:  The biggest change coming is the PG with Curry is not working. Look for Green and Wade to play more at the top while giving Hunter time to get ready. He’s our future PG. Change will see Oliver and Godwin together on the wings with Green at the top. Curry could be more effective rotating on the wing. The talent is there for a championship but the offense is not connected yet.

ODU dribbles way too much in their HC sets. Curry, Wade and Green are all guilty. Even when they do pass the ball, our bigs have been ineffective in finishing for points and Godwin struggles to gain separation for his shots. Result is lots of hesitation and forced shots but little continuity or confidence.

The funny (or frustrating) thing is that if the perimeter game improves, there will be open lanes for the dribble-drives or if the post players start producing, the snipers will get more time and better looks for 3.

Using small tweaks such as mixing in a little zone or springing a half-court trap is often simply to switch the players focus away from their struggles on offense...the occasional easy baskets are more of a bonus.

(12-13-2019 10:56 AM)mac Wrote:  Well, that's a lot of words here and I sure didnt read them all. But, what they have been doing sure wasn't working. Time to try and mix in something else.

Guess the Clemson guy gets to play tonight? Isn't there a game tonight?

Tomorrow. Saturday.

(12-13-2019 11:53 AM)bigblue78 Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 11:22 AM)north beach monarch Wrote:  The biggest change coming is the PG with Curry is not working. Look for Green and Wade to play more at the top while giving Hunter time to get ready. He’s our future PG. Change will see Oliver and Godwin together on the wings with Green at the top. Curry could be more effective rotating on the wing. The talent is there for a championship but the offense is not connected yet.

ODU dribbles way too much in their HC sets. Curry, Wade and Green are all guilty. Even when they do pass the ball, our bigs have been ineffective in finishing for points and Godwin struggles to gain separation for his shots. Result is lots of hesitation and forced shots but little continuity or confidence.

I agree 100% with this. Something that I would add is that in my opinion ODU has guys catching the ball in the half court offense too often in positions where they are not an offensive threat to score. An example of this is Carver and Wade stationed and receiving passes in the half court sets outside the 3 point line. It is just wasted time off the shot clock that frequently leads to a last second heave to beat the clock by someone else.

(12-13-2019 11:46 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  This doesn't make any sense. Curry has been one of our better players. Green is a poor PG. Hunter is not ready to take over that responsibility. Wade isn't a PG

North Beach is close to the team, so if he says it I would think it's because he heard it first hand.

So, guess we shall see starting tomorrow.

Curry was fairly good offensively earlier but not sure how good an actual point guard he is. Would need to see how many assists versus how many shots he has been taking. Wasn't he 0-11 recently?

(12-13-2019 03:12 PM)mac Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 11:46 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  This doesn't make any sense. Curry has been one of our better players. Green is a poor PG. Hunter is not ready to take over that responsibility. Wade isn't a PG

North Beach is close to the team, so if he says it I would think it's because he heard it first hand.

So, guess we shall see starting tomorrow.

Curry was fairly good offensively earlier but not sure how good an actual point guard he is. Would need to see how many assists versus how many shots he has been taking. Wasn't he 0-11 recently?

Oh, I was just providing my opinion. It is hard for a point guard to get assists if no one can make a shot.

Taking out one of the 2-3 guys that can actually get buckets is probably a bad idea.