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Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
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ColumbusCard Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football
12-12-2019 06:11 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 06:11 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football

None of the schools other than TCU made any kind of sense. UConn, Cincy, WVU, and Louisville all have nothing in common with the Big 12.

But the Big 12 was desperate and WVU was a flagship with the best football at the time, so they were the best choice.

Still doesn't make any sense for them to be in the Big 12, but that's life.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2019 06:21 PM by quo vadis.)
12-12-2019 06:20 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 06:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-12-2019 06:11 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football

None of the schools other than TCU made any kind of sense. UConn, Cincy, WVU, and Louisville all have nothing in common with the Big 12.

But the Big 12 was desperate and WVU was a flagship with the best football at the time, so they were the best choice.

Still doesn't make any sense for them to be in the Big 12, but that's life.

I was referring to the ACC backfill
12-12-2019 06:42 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 11:44 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  
(12-12-2019 09:21 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(12-12-2019 02:05 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  I’ll always wonder why the b12 went with (MWC) TCU and (BE) West Virginia only.
It should of been WV and Big East rival Louisville.
Not another Texas school.
But if they were so hung hung on TCU...add them WV, Louisville & Cincinnati
for a true 12, Big 12.

Big 12 North
Cincinnati
WV
Louisville
Iowa St
KU
KSU

Big 12 South
OSU
OU
TCU
Baylor
Texas Tech
Texas
Damn fine hoops and more markets

TCU was a home run add. Could've won a national championship in 2010, could've again in 2014. DFW market, SWC history.

XII should've add TCU/WVU/UC/UL. UH for backup if one leaves.

I always thought this was the right move.

I don't know about a home run, but they were easily the best program at the time.
They are one of 14 schools that have finished in the top 3 more than once since the start of the BCS era (and one of only 21 to do it at all). There were top 10 in winning % from 2000-2009. Despite being in the MWC, they were still top 20 in AP poll points in that decade.
12-12-2019 10:48 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 05:40 PM)RUScarlets Wrote:  After Big 12 GoR, ESPN asks ACC to take a WVU and maybe a UC. Lock down ACC/ESPN for a longer TV deal for slightly more money adjusted for inflation.

Then the Big 12 can add UCF/USF/Memphis to finish off the AAC, who would take the top 6 from conference USA/Sunbelt (and there would be enough FCS and Indy schools to back fill the latter conferences at this point).

Every conference has 12-16 schools with two divisions. Then maybe it would be time to expand the CFP to 8, but I still don't see the set up, especially when G5 would be further diluted should expansion occur in some manner I described.


Had ESPiN did that, I'm sure the ACC would have taken WVU, over everyone's objections. Why?? $$$'s.
12-13-2019 12:53 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 06:11 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football

Because of academics.

The only reason Louisville got invited is because the conference wanted to keep Clemson and Florida State happy and not to give the Big XII a serious look.
12-13-2019 01:23 AM
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Post: #27
Question RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
West Virginia at the time also had a larger FB stadium and was still thought as a bigger program.
12-13-2019 08:12 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 06:42 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  
(12-12-2019 06:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-12-2019 06:11 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football

None of the schools other than TCU made any kind of sense. UConn, Cincy, WVU, and Louisville all have nothing in common with the Big 12.

But the Big 12 was desperate and WVU was a flagship with the best football at the time, so they were the best choice.

Still doesn't make any sense for them to be in the Big 12, but that's life.

I was referring to the ACC backfill

UConn did make more sense than Louisville, in a grand scheme. State flagship, better university, actually on the Atlantic Coast.

But, two things killed UConn with the ACC - animosity over the 2003 era lawsuit, and lousy football at a time when the football powers were worried and disgruntled.
12-13-2019 08:30 AM
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RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-12-2019 06:11 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  Im still wondering why many people thought that Uconn over Louisville made sense. Their basketball prowess is essentially equal and Louisville had wayyy better football

State flagship and near NY for an academically-inclined, atlantic seaboard conference.
12-13-2019 09:25 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
this has been discussed a number of times

1. as was already pointed out the Big 12 only lost 2 teams in 2010 and was not looking to add anyone immediately

2. the factor that people refuse to understand or believe and that has been backed up by a link from a Louisville fan in another thread discussing this on the forum is that Louisville was not looking to leave the Big East when the Big 12 needed to immediately add two schools

Louisville was looking to stay in the Big East for the full time period required in the contract and that did not work for the Big 12 that needed two teams immediately

in that link posted on this site the Louisville AD admits they were caught off guard when the Big East started to fully crumble around them and that they did not expect that at all and that changed things for them very quickly

3. at the time the Big 12 had a brand new tier 2 contract with Fox that only paid for and also REQUIRED 10 teams so the Big 12 needed two teams immediately.....it is well known and well documented that Louisville was intent to give the Big East the full multi-year notice and that did not work for the Big 12

The Big 12 also had the ESPN tier 1 contract that was still in place for 5 years and that paid a lot less than their new tier 2 contract with Fox even though AT THAT TIME the Big 12 tier 1 contract with ESPN still paid for 12 teams and a CCG

so the Big 12 would have been taking a financial hit on BOTH contracts that at the time only paid a total of $150 million per year ($15 million a year for each team in a 10 team conference)

so there was not a financial incentive for the Big 12 to expand beyond 10 since the brand new tier 2 contract only paid foe (and required) 10 teams and the tier 1 contact was going to stay in place for another 5 years even though it had been for 12 teams and with a CCG

4. it was not until 6 months after TCU and WVU were added that the Big 12 renegotiated the tier 1 contract with ESPN and the money was significantly raised

that was in Sept of 2012 and then in Nov of 2012 it was announced that Louisville was going to the ACC so it is pretty clear that there was not a chance for the Big 12 to reach out to Louisville and offer them a place because Louisville was already working with the ACC

but again it was made clear in the articles posted on this forum that Louisville was intent on staying in the Big East for the full exit period and that in another article posted that Louisville was not looking to jump from the Big East

I don't think this is the article (posted in another thread also started by you)

http://louisvilleky.com/why-louisville-a...he-big-12/

https://csnbbs.com/thread-805705-page-4.html

but the above article makes clear that powerful people at Louisville were not looking to the Big 12 as their last and only hope nor were they looking at the Big East as a place they had to immediately leave especially in 2010

perhaps the Louisville fan will again post that other article (that I believe was an interview with the AD) that makes it clear that Louisville was caught flat footed by the total collapse of the Big East and that they were not begging to get into the Big 12 and they only started to seriously talk with the Big 12 once it was clear the Big East was collapsing and by then it was pretty much too late to get Louisville AND another team into the Big 12 and that WVU was pretty much going to be the 10th

and then between the time that happened and people thought more might happen with the Big 12 the Big 10 pulled Maryland from the ACC and things changed for Louisville to have choices
12-13-2019 01:22 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
You are the first one other than a Louisville fan who believes that nonsense.

Louisville was begging for a bid to the Big 12. Unfortunately for them at the time, they were #2 behind WVU. A year later, they edged out UConn and UConn was #2.
12-13-2019 01:40 PM
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RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-13-2019 01:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  You are the first one other than a Louisville fan who believes that nonsense.

Louisville was begging for a bid to the Big 12. Unfortunately for them at the time, they were #2 behind WVU. A year later, they edged out UConn and UConn was #2.

the article I posted makes it clear Louisville was not begging to get into the Big 12 at least in Sept of 2011 in fact their powerful BB coach was saying they should not go there

that was only 6 months or so before WVU and TCU joined the Big 12

Louisville made it abundantly clear they were wanting to stay in the Big East for the full exit period.....anyone at all that remotely paid attention at that times knows that Louisville said time and again they were looking to stay for the full mandated exit period

I understand that at the last minute when it became clear to Louisville (catching them totally off guard as their AD admitted in an interview) that Louisville suddenly tried to pull out all the stops to get a place in the Big 12 potentially, but at that time the decision had been made

and the decision to add two teams AT THAT TIME was the only decision the Big 12 was prepared to make because of the finances

people pretend that the Big 12 had a real choice to add 4 teams AT ONE TIME or to try and add 3 teams and force the hand of a 4th team ALL AT THE SAME TIME, but AT THAT TIME the finances did not allow the Big 12 to make any choice other than add two teams and then reevaluate the decision from there

Louisville and the Big 12 is similar to the Big 12 BYU......BYU thought they had room to make demands, drag their feet, hold out for what they wanted and that the Big 12 would sit around and work with that and evaluate that and take all that into consideration.....and the Big 12 did for about 5 minutes before they said NEXT and moved on from BYU and that was that end of story for BYU there was no going back to them until AFTER the Big 12 had added the TWO teams they NEEDED to add

Louisville was not as arrogant as BYU was it was simply that Louisville made it clear they were intent on staying to stay in the BE until the end of the required exit fee......Louisville made it clear they were not desperate to leave the BE

and at the time the Big 12 NEEDED to add TWO teams......the finances were dictating TWO teams

the Big 12 did not have a ton of time to sit around and negotiate with teams about playing on Sunday, staying in their current conference for another year or two or anything else......the Big 12 NEEDED teams that were ready to be members #9 and #10

once #9 and #10 were added that was all the Big 12 NEEDED and from there the Big 12 also NEEDED to work out the MONEY if they were going to add any additional teams.....and in the time period that the Big 12 worked out the MONEY to potentially add two or more teams something else opened up for Louisville

again there was no chance for the Big 12 to add 4 teams at one time because of the MONEY....it simply made no sense and at the time the Big 12 NEEDED two teams Louisville and BYU and others thought they had a chance to drag their feet and take their time and let the Big 12 know they were thinking about things and the Big 12 was not looking to work with that

and the article posted in another thread made it clear that the Louisville administration thought they had a lot more time to talk with the Big 12 because they felt the BE was not totally falling apart around them and the BE falling apart completely caught them off guard
12-13-2019 02:02 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
12-13-2019 03:12 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-13-2019 03:12 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  If Louisville wasn’t begging the Big XII then why Mitch McConnell got involved when it was clear West Virginia was going to be invited?

https://www.politico.com/news/stories/02...Page2.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/sport...ginia.html

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/art...29362.html

https://www.foxsports.com/collegefootbal...lle-102811

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2ch..._blog.html

by the time that happened it was too late

the article that was previously posted on this thread made it clear that Louisville was in no hurry to leave the Big East and by the time they realized they NEEDED to leave they were in a position where they would have been screwed if the Big 10 had not opened a spot for them in the ACC

the Louisville administration pretty much admits that in the article and their AD was not known for easily admitting mistakes (and he was a pretty damn good AD for them up to and until all the cheating ect was exposed)

people are simply going to ignore that Louisville wanted to give the 27 months notice

here is an article from Nov of 2013 (TCU and WVU joined the Big 12 in early 2012)

https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...g-east-acc

most people will focus in the part that says Louisville INTENDED to join the Big 12, but the article makes clear that Louisville had no invitation to ANY conference in October of 2011 when they gave notice to the Big East they were leaving

the articles you post are from that same time period of October 2011

but what people want to ignore is what the article I just linked clearly says....that Louisville was giving 27 months notice to save $4 million dollars

I am not claiming that $4 million dollars would be some huge financial burden to Louisville because it would not.....but again it shows a CLEAR intent by Louisville to give the FULL 27 months notice to the Big East before leaving

it was WELL DOCUMENTED and reported on time and again that Louisville intended to give the Big East the full 27 months notice

and it is 100% clear that the Big 12 needed two teams BEFORE that 27 months notice would be up

as the article states the Big East was willing to put up with about anything from Louisville to get them to stay including accepting an "informal" notice of leaving the conference so that the news would not leak out

but more importantly people still want to pretend that the Big 12 had the realistic opportunity to go ahead and invite Louisville (and some 4th school) immediately at the same time as they added the two schools that they HAD to add to not be in violation of their new tier 2 contract with Fox that REQUIRED 10 teams

but again that was not the case

here lets look at it from a different perspective

it is WELL documented that the Big 12 had a brand new tier 2 contract with Fox that paid $90 million per team or $9 million per team per year on average

it is well documented that the Big 12 also had an older tier 1 contract with ESPN that had been signed with 12 teams and a CCG and that still had several years left on it in 2011 and it paid $60 million per year on average or $6 million per year per team

that is a total of $15 million per year per team on average

if you take $15 million X 10 teams that is $150 million and if you split that by 12 teams that is now $12.5 million per team

plus you are looking at a 4 year BUY IN for ANY of the new 2 or 4 members of the Big 12

now we have the article below from mid 2011

https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...-East.aspx

this is an article that states what we all know that the Big East TURNED DOWN a contract from ESPN in May of 2011 that would have paid each team on average $11 million a year

so in May of 2011 with Louisville as one of the most influential members the Big East turned down a contract with ESPN that would have paid each member on average $11 million per year

as the article states the Big East "gambled" they would get more than $11 million per year

now lets go back to what we KNOW

we KNOW it would have cost Louisville $14 million to leave the Big East early.....we know it would have cost Louisville $11 million to leave the Big East after 27 months notice

we KNOW the Big 12 had a brand new tier 2 contract for $90 million per year on average for 10 teams

we KNOW they had a $60 million per year on average contract with ESPN that had several years on it and we KNOW that with 12 teams and BEFORE any buy in those contracts as they were would have paid $12.5 million per year

and we KNOW it was a 4 year buy in

so in May of 2011 Louisville is an influential and possibly the most powerful member of a conference that turned down a contract with ESPN for an average of $11 million per year

so we have Louisville and the Big East in May of 2011 thinking they are going to get AT LEAST $11 million per year and probably meaningful dollars more than that

We have Louisville looking at a $11 to $14 million buy out depending on when they leave the Big East

and we have the Big 12 with contracts that would pay $12.5 million for FULL MEMBERS if they had 12 teams in the conference and the Big 12 with a 4 year buy in

so when you do the math in May of 2011 we have Louisville as one of the most influential if not the most influential member of the Big East turning down a contract from ESPN for $11 million per year on average because they believed they could do better (some thought much better)

and we have Louisville at that time looking at $14 million to immediately leave the Big East and a Big 12 paying $12.5 million per year for FULL MEMBERS (if they added 4 teams) needing to IMMEDIATELY add two members to keep their brand new tier 2 contract with Fox and make $15 million per member on average of they only add two teams

so again when you look at the money, you look at the reports from that time and you look at the REALITY if the situation the Big 12 was only in a position to IMMEDIATELY add two teams

and from the stand point of Louisville they believed in May of 2011 that the Big East was going to do better than $11 million per year, they were not interested in paying $14 million to leave the big East immediately and they were probably not excited by a 4 year buy in for the Big 12.....especially when the "incentive" at that time was at best $1.5 million per year once they were a full member

what changed between May of 2011 and October of 2011.....well TCU decided to not come to the Big East, NBC/Comcrap and Fox took no interest in the Big East and ESPN decided they were pissed off that the Big East turned down their $11 million per year

and that is when Louisville realized that things were falling apart in the Big East and made a too late last minute push to get in the Big 12

but by then the Big 12 had made their decision in WVU, WVU had expressed interest in being a member from day one, it was pretty clear to WVU and everyone else that they were not a great candidate for the ACC and TCU and WVU were invited

and because of the fact that the Big 12 was not interested in taking on average $12.5 million per team instead of $15 million (full member shares) the Big 12 decided it was best to only add two teams instead of four and then they would talk with ESPN about the tier 1 contract

and between early 2012 when TCU and WVU joined the Big 12 and Sept 2012 when ESPN (and Fox) and the Big 12 negotiated/renegotiated their deals Louisville was offered a spot in the ACC that was announced as an offer in Nov of 2012 and they joined in Nov of 2013

so while everyone wants to concentrate on that last minute push by Louisville is is clear that just a few months back Louisville thought they would be as good or better off in the Big East with an $11+ million dollar payout per year per team on average, no buyout, no buy in, basketball and the top football member in a conference they would be one of if not the top dog in

and it should be clear to everyone why the Big 12 was not just looking to immediately add 4 members when they NEEDED to add two....all the more so when it is well known BYU was wanting concessions, UC was not nearly the candidate they look like now, and it should be pretty clear that Louisville was not just begging the Big 12 to get in until it was too late
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019 05:38 PM by TodgeRodge.)
12-13-2019 05:32 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
Todge is correct. In July of 2011, The Big 12 had quietly approached UofL about joining. Tom Jurich told them thanks but no thanks. This is from August 2011.

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.co...nt-page-1/

BTW I challenge anyone to find an article before September 2011 that mentions WVU. Matter of fact you’ll find Pitt mentioned before WVU. The first articles we saw here in Louisville were UofL and Pitt to The Big 12
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019 05:49 PM by CardinalJim.)
12-13-2019 05:46 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-13-2019 03:12 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  If Louisville wasn’t begging the Big XII then why Mitch McConnell got involved when it was clear West Virginia was going to be invited?

https://www.politico.com/news/stories/02...Page2.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/27/sport...ginia.html

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/art...29362.html

https://www.foxsports.com/collegefootbal...lle-102811

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2ch..._blog.html

All these happened months after The Big 12 initially approached Louisville. Nothing to see here.
12-13-2019 05:50 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-13-2019 05:46 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Todge is correct. In July of 2011, The Big 12 had quietly approached UofL about joining. Tom Jurich told them thanks but no thanks. This is from August 2011.

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.co...nt-page-1/

BTW I challenge anyone to find an article before September 2011 that mentions WVU. Matter of fact you’ll find Pitt mentioned before WVU. The first articles we saw here in Louisville were UofL and Pitt to The Big 12

thanks this is the article I was thinking of

I wish the other article linked in the article you posted still worked or was on the wayback machine

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/ulbeat/...ks-big-12/

the title of it makes things pretty clear

it is pretty clear that Louisville was slow rolling the Big 12 at best and the Big 12 was probably slow rolling them as well

it is pretty clear from the articles I posted that in mid 2011 Louisville (and many others) felt the money in the Big East would be as good or better than the Big 12 with no buy out and no buy in

also one should take notice in the articles that I posted that the exclusive negotiating window with the Big East and ESPN was in Sept of 2012.....and of course Sept of 2012 is when ESPN/FOX and the Big 12 negotiated/renegotiated their contracts to what the Big 12 has now

so more than likely ESPN was slow rolling the Big 12 as well and telling them to "find 2 teams" to make FOX happy and then slow down and see where things fall

people can say that things would have been better for the Big 12 with 2 additional teams especially if one was Louisville, but Louisville and their fans have made pretty clear they are very happy in the ACC

and while it is true the Big 12, FOX and ESPN had the expansion clause in their new contracts it is also clear that when it came time to have the Big 12 (loud mouth drool cup boren) look at adding additional teams FOX and ESPN made clear they had no interest in the Big 12 doing so and would frown on being forced to pay that money

that would again suggest to me that back in late 2011 ESPN was telling the Big 12 to concentrate on adding the NEEDED 2 teams and then see where things fell and what team (besides POSSIBLY Louisville being available) really made themselves stand out....and of course by Sept of 2012 Louisville was pretty much not available because they got the offical ACC invite less than a month later

and once Louisville was gone and ESPN blew off the Big East entirely in Sept of 2012 and told then "go to market" and then met the low offer that NBC/Comcrap offered and they pretty much decided they did not want to pay for anyone else in the Big 12 unless someone really made themselves stand out.....and a few years later when wallflower boren decided he needed attention ESPN and FOX made it clear no one stood out and probably was not going to any time soon

things were not nearly as clear, simple, open and shut the way people think they were that "the Big 12 should have grabbed 4 teams right then not just 2"
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019 06:10 PM by TodgeRodge.)
12-13-2019 06:04 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
There’s a 44 paragraph post on this page.

I’ve made 4400 posts and haven’t hit 44 paragraphs cumulatively.
12-13-2019 07:50 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
(12-13-2019 07:50 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  There’s a 44 paragraph post on this page.

I’ve made 4400 posts and haven’t hit 44 paragraphs cumulatively.

"Paragraph" is a generous term. Those breaks just represent when Todge has to breathe. 03-wink
12-13-2019 08:04 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Its fall of 2010 and B12 is losing 4 members. Why not add WV @ Louisville?
TCU (and WVU) were willing to join the B12 right away. Louisville wanted to honor its commitment to the BE and didn't want to leave on such short notice
question remains why the B12 didn't add Louisville & Cincy a year or 2 later
12-18-2019 07:41 PM
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