(12-09-2019 05:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 02:10 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 12:18 PM)TTT Wrote:  I'm confused..."conference on the other side"? Can you re-phrase your question? Are you asking what if a 6-6 team beats a 10-2 team in a conference championship game? Sorry, not following your question.

Ok. What if Virginia, for example, is 6-6 and plays 12-0 Clemson in the ACCCG and Clemson ends up taking a dump (like UGA did against SC this year)?

With your scenario, you would put in 7-6 Virginia and leave out a team like Florida who is in the top 10 and has a top 11 win and whose only 2 losses were to #1 and #5.

If Florida wins its conference, it doesn't have that issue. Decide it on the field.

With conference champ autobids, you're not deciding it on the field because the OOC game are ignored. That makes zero sense at all to me.

OOC absolutely has value in a 5-1-2:

Strength of schedule is going to be meaningful in determining both seeding among the autobid recipients. OOC scheduling is also going to be key in deciding who earns the at large bids.

(12-09-2019 05:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 02:10 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 12:18 PM)TTT Wrote:  I'm confused..."conference on the other side"? Can you re-phrase your question? Are you asking what if a 6-6 team beats a 10-2 team in a conference championship game? Sorry, not following your question.

Ok. What if Virginia, for example, is 6-6 and plays 12-0 Clemson in the ACCCG and Clemson ends up taking a dump (like UGA did against SC this year)?

With your scenario, you would put in 7-6 Virginia and leave out a team like Florida who is in the top 10 and has a top 11 win and whose only 2 losses were to #1 and #5.

If Florida wins its conference, it doesn't have that issue. Decide it on the field.

With conference champ autobids, you're not deciding it on the field because the OOC game are ignored. That makes zero sense at all to me.

OOC games aren't ignored. Florida State does ignore Florida, Iowa State doesnt overlook Iowa.

Alabama scheduling random FCS school to avoid an upset is a yawn fest

(12-09-2019 08:33 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 08:09 PM)esayem Wrote:  If a team loses a CCG, then they should be disqualified. In the P5, they’re already playing a neutral site game with implications. This would set-up the P5 CCG’s as a de facto first round.

I don’t think there’s any reason why Georgia, Wisconsin, Baylor, etc. deserve a second chance at playing a team they just lost to at a neutral site.

Would you also disqualify a team that didn't even REACH the CCG?

No. If a team’s only loss was against a very powerful team on the road and that caused them not to win their division, why would you?

The point of a CCG, is it’s at a NEUTRAL site. That’s your chance to prove it on the field.

This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

I don't care about the Cinderella's. I care about the Sleeping Beauties who don't even get a chance to play. With two, the CFP has proven that the best team often gets left out. With four, there's still a good chance the best team gets left out. With 8, it doesn't happen. Except for maybe 1977 and 2008 I can't think of any years where you would have a #9 team even be a consideration. 1977 had unbeaten Texas and a bunch of 1 loss teams. 2008 had a bunch of 1 loss teams and several G schools unbeaten.

(12-09-2019 08:09 PM)esayem Wrote:  If a team loses a CCG, then they should be disqualified. In the P5, they’re already playing a neutral site game with implications. This would set-up the P5 CCG’s as a de facto first round.

I don’t think there’s any reason why Georgia, Wisconsin, Baylor, etc. deserve a second chance at playing a team they just lost to at a neutral site.

So had undefeated LSU/OSU lose by 1 point in their conference CG...you would bump them from the CFP??

(12-09-2019 08:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 05:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 02:10 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 12:18 PM)TTT Wrote:  I'm confused..."conference on the other side"? Can you re-phrase your question? Are you asking what if a 6-6 team beats a 10-2 team in a conference championship game? Sorry, not following your question.

Ok. What if Virginia, for example, is 6-6 and plays 12-0 Clemson in the ACCCG and Clemson ends up taking a dump (like UGA did against SC this year)?

With your scenario, you would put in 7-6 Virginia and leave out a team like Florida who is in the top 10 and has a top 11 win and whose only 2 losses were to #1 and #5.

If Florida wins its conference, it doesn't have that issue. Decide it on the field.

With conference champ autobids, you're not deciding it on the field because the OOC game are ignored. That makes zero sense at all to me.

OOC absolutely has value in a 5-1-2:

Strength of schedule is going to be meaningful in determining both seeding among the autobid recipients. OOC scheduling is also going to be key in deciding who earns the at large bids.

Yes, some value, but greatly reduced value compared to say straight 8. In 5-1-2, a team could go 8-4 and make the playoffs. Could never happen in straight 8.

(12-10-2019 08:49 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

I don't care about the Cinderella's. I care about the Sleeping Beauties who don't even get a chance to play. With two, the CFP has proven that the best team often gets left out. With four, there's still a good chance the best team gets left out.

There is? Like when?

(12-10-2019 08:49 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

I don't care about the Cinderella's. I care about the Sleeping Beauties who don't even get a chance to play. With two, the CFP has proven that the best team often gets left out. With four, there's still a good chance the best team gets left out. With 8, it doesn't happen. Except for maybe 1977 and 2008 I can't think of any years where you would have a #9 team even be a consideration. 1977 had unbeaten Texas and a bunch of 1 loss teams. 2008 had a bunch of 1 loss teams and several G schools unbeaten.

I don't feel "the best" team has been left out thus far. But yes, it could happen in the future if, say, winners of all five P5 leagues are undefeated and of relatively equal strength.

That is one reason, among many, I would like to see an eight-team playoff.

(12-09-2019 07:24 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 05:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 02:10 PM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 12:18 PM)TTT Wrote:  I'm confused..."conference on the other side"? Can you re-phrase your question? Are you asking what if a 6-6 team beats a 10-2 team in a conference championship game? Sorry, not following your question.

Ok. What if Virginia, for example, is 6-6 and plays 12-0 Clemson in the ACCCG and Clemson ends up taking a dump (like UGA did against SC this year)?

With your scenario, you would put in 7-6 Virginia and leave out a team like Florida who is in the top 10 and has a top 11 win and whose only 2 losses were to #1 and #5.

If Florida wins its conference, it doesn't have that issue. Decide it on the field.

With conference champ autobids, you're not deciding it on the field because the OOC game are ignored. That makes zero sense at all to me.

They’re not ignored. There are still 2 or 3 at-large spots in an 8-team playoff where it’s going to matter greatly. If anything, it will encourage better non-conference scheduling (just like in basketball) because if you don’t win your conference, the non-conference schedule gets scrutinized more heavily.

To me, the problems with 5-1-2 compared to straight 8 are several:

1) Conference champs are a local achievement not national. Winning the Big 12 doesn't mean you proved anything versus a PAC team, so should not give you an auto-entry over them, and vice-versa.

2) Conference champ determinations are often not very valid. E.g., right now, we're hearing about how conferences can manipulate their divisional or round-robin formats to better benefit TV, not determine a true champ. All conferences want CCGs even though a CCG isn't the most valid way to pick a champ - full RR is. Even if they are done the most valid way - full RR with no CCG - teams only play each other once, so HFA is never balanced out. In all other sports, seasons are structured such that everyone plays everyone home and away, CF can't do that.

3) 5-1-2 is IMO subject to legal challenge, because at least as it is discussed here, with the G5 team picked by a committee, it formally treats the G5 differently from the P5. At the least, the G5 champ should be chosen by preliminary playoffs among the G5 conference winners, so that everyone has a "path to the playoffs" on the field. But nobody advocates that.

4) True, OOC games aren't totally ignored, but compared to S8 they are clearly devalued. If you are a Big 12 team, you can go 0-4 OOC, but end up 9-4 after winning all your Big 12 games, and make the playoffs over much better teams from other conferences. Bottom line is, the 2 proposed "at large" bids are so few in number that nobody will plan for them, they will plan for winning their conference, and the OOC games will be treated as exhibitions, whether you are Texas playing FIU or Texas playing Georgia.

With Straight 8, you can never get an 8-4 team in, the teams that are in are likely to be a better lot of teams. More worthy, IMO.

No scenario that guarantees a spot is acceptable. This is not the NCAA tournament where there is plenty of room for everyone. The football tournament must be represented by THE best 4/8/12/16 teams.

Memphis making it this year would be a sham in an 8 team format... they do not deserve a spot this year, but any guarantee deal in an 8 team field would likely include them.


I have no skin in the game - I root for THE worst team in FBS college football. When it comes to this playoff - I want to see the best teams play for the title regardless of how many make up the field - I want the best 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 teams trying to win it - PERIOD.

(12-10-2019 09:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:49 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

I don't care about the Cinderella's. I care about the Sleeping Beauties who don't even get a chance to play. With two, the CFP has proven that the best team often gets left out. With four, there's still a good chance the best team gets left out.

There is? Like when?

2014 TCU to name one.

(12-10-2019 10:23 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  No scenario that guarantees a spot is acceptable. This is not the NCAA tournament where there is plenty of room for everyone. The football tournament must be represented by THE best 4/8/12/16 teams.

Memphis making it this year would be a sham in an 8 team format... they do not deserve a spot this year, but any guarantee deal in an 8 team field would likely include them.


I have no skin in the game - I root for THE worst team in FBS college football. When it comes to this playoff - I want to see the best teams play for the title regardless of how many make up the field - I want the best 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 teams trying to win it - PERIOD.

How do you know they are the best? The CFP #1 seed has not yet won. The CFP #4 has won 2 of 5. It is very obvious that pollsters don't know who is best. In 2014 I don't think anyone really thought Alabama and Oregon weren't the best two. Yet they both got whipped by Ohio St. And TCU and Baylor got left out. TCU destroyed Ole Miss in a bowl who beat #1 Alabama.

I want it decided on the field. Conference championships and AQs do that.

You can't even compare conferences because there are so few games between conferences. How do we know anybody in the Big 10 other than Ohio St. deserves even a top 20 ranking? How do we really know Baylor deserves a top 20 ranking? Or maybe Texas, Oklahoma St., Kansas St. and Iowa St. are really all top 20 teams but have a bunch of losses because they beat up on each other? After all, UGA, the #2 team in the SEC lost 37-10 to LSU. Texas, in a 4 way tie for 3rd in the Big 12 lost 45-38. There is simply not enough data for a bunch of people in a room to accurately evaluate teams. Any statistician will tell you 12 or 13 data points cannot be reliably used to make a projection.

(12-10-2019 10:23 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  No scenario that guarantees a spot is acceptable. This is not the NCAA tournament where there is plenty of room for everyone. The football tournament must be represented by THE best 4/8/12/16 teams.

That's very well said.

We often see people invoke comparisons to the NCAA hoops tournament or the baseball tournament, but as you say the critical difference is that all the good teams get in, champs or not. The only reason champs get auto-bids to those events is because the tournaments are large enough to accommodate basically anyone with a pulse of a chance to win.

If college hoops had an 8-team playoff, it wouldn't have auto-bids either. We basically got rid of that model 44 years ago.

(12-10-2019 10:30 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 09:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:49 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

I don't care about the Cinderella's. I care about the Sleeping Beauties who don't even get a chance to play. With two, the CFP has proven that the best team often gets left out. With four, there's still a good chance the best team gets left out.

There is? Like when?

2014 TCU to name one.

Oh please. The myth of 2014 TCU will never die. IIRC, their best win was over a 3-loss Ole Miss team that finished 3rd in the SEC West. I mean, come on.

(12-10-2019 10:39 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 10:23 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  No scenario that guarantees a spot is acceptable. This is not the NCAA tournament where there is plenty of room for everyone. The football tournament must be represented by THE best 4/8/12/16 teams.

Memphis making it this year would be a sham in an 8 team format... they do not deserve a spot this year, but any guarantee deal in an 8 team field would likely include them.


I have no skin in the game - I root for THE worst team in FBS college football. When it comes to this playoff - I want to see the best teams play for the title regardless of how many make up the field - I want the best 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 teams trying to win it - PERIOD.

How do you know they are the best? The CFP #1 seed has not yet won. The CFP #4 has won 2 of 5. It is very obvious that pollsters don't know who is best. In 2014 I don't think anyone really thought Alabama and Oregon weren't the best two. Yet they both got whipped by Ohio St. And TCU and Baylor got left out. TCU destroyed Ole Miss in a bowl who beat #1 Alabama.

I want it decided on the field. Conference championships and AQs do that.

You can't even compare conferences because there are so few games between conferences. How do we know anybody in the Big 10 other than Ohio St. deserves even a top 20 ranking? How do we really know Baylor deserves a top 20 ranking? Or maybe Texas, Oklahoma St., Kansas St. and Iowa St. are really all top 20 teams but have a bunch of losses because they beat up on each other? After all, UGA, the #2 team in the SEC lost 37-10 to LSU. Texas, in a 4 way tie for 3rd in the Big 12 lost 45-38. There is simply not enough data for a bunch of people in a room to accurately evaluate teams. Any statistician will tell you 12 or 13 data points cannot be reliably used to make a projection.

You cannot rely on the transitive theory. Like I said - I don't care who the best 4 are as long as it is [basically] the best 4 and I also don't care who the odd man out ends up being. If it's TCU getting left out in 2014 - too bad. The difference between 4/5 or 8/9 (or whatever the line is) will never be significant enough to really matter (except for the team on the outside looking in and their fans of course).

My point has less to do with who doesn't get in and more so with who does - as long as there are no guaranteed spots have 20 teams for all I care. Because it is football, there will never be enough teams allowed in to have a "basketball system" in place to pick teams.

Beyond 4 teams starts to dilute the playoff, in any given year there may be somewhere between 3 - 6 teams that could win and IMO it is fairly rare if there are more than 4 that can win it. Even of there are 6 legitimate contenders #7 & #8 are the equivalent of a playoff version of a body bag game - No thank you.

(12-09-2019 11:03 AM)TTT Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 10:40 AM)TTT Wrote:  The 5-1-2 Playoff:

-8-team playoff
-Each Power 5 Champion is an AQ.
-The highest ranked G5 Champion is an AQ.
-The remaining two at-large seeds go to the highest ranked teams not already in as an AQ.
-After the 8 team field is set, they are seeded by the CFB Playoff Committee for match-ups.

Here is that format with this year's teams. Tell me what you think (teams already seeded using the current CFB Ranking):

1. LSU 13-0 (SEC Champ)
2. Ohio State 13-0 (B10 Champ)
3. Clemson (13-0 (ACC Champ)
4. Oklahoma (12-1 B12 Champ)
5. Georgia (11-2 Highest ranked team not already in as an AQ)
6. Oregon (11-2 PAC12 Champ)
7. Baylor (11-2 2nd Highest ranked team not already in as an AQ)
8. Memphis (12-1 Highest ranked G5 Champ-AAC)

Single elimination with pods 1v8/4v5 & 2v7/3v6. Have a yearly bidding for the big name bowls to host these 5 games (Sugar, Orange, Fiesta, Cotton, Rose, Peach...may the 5 highest bidders win the rights on a yearly basis).

Of course it's still imperfect...but I think it's the better than what we have. Why have this format instead of "top 8, regardless of conference affiliation or conference title"? Because of toxic politics in everything from pre-season rankings all throughout the regular season. Also, this puts an emphasis on winning your conference and ULTIMATELY it would put pressure on those left out to pressure for the 16 team playoff which is what I think EVERYONE wants.

Well ...

1) I don't think this is better than the 4-team playoff we currently have. What have the other four teams done to merit playing for the title?

2) I don't think 5-1-2 is better than "straight 8", winning a conference is a local achievement not a national one and these are national playoffs.

3) No, I don't want 16 team playoff for the same reason I can live without an 8-team playoff.

So I'm glad you posted this, as it reminded me of what I like about the current system.

Look, I'm gonna be honest: I like my model for my own selfish reasons. I really want to see the highest ranked G5 Champion get into the playoff if we're gonna move to 8.

Look at it this way: it's the equivalent of some random SWAC or Big South BBall Tournament Champion getting into the NCAA tourney over a 22-10 B10 or ACC bubble team.

Its really not. Its more like having Gonzaga in the tourney over a Florida State or Purdue level team if we're using the basketball analogy

(12-10-2019 11:19 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 10:39 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-10-2019 10:23 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  No scenario that guarantees a spot is acceptable. This is not the NCAA tournament where there is plenty of room for everyone. The football tournament must be represented by THE best 4/8/12/16 teams.

Memphis making it this year would be a sham in an 8 team format... they do not deserve a spot this year, but any guarantee deal in an 8 team field would likely include them.


I have no skin in the game - I root for THE worst team in FBS college football. When it comes to this playoff - I want to see the best teams play for the title regardless of how many make up the field - I want the best 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 teams trying to win it - PERIOD.

How do you know they are the best? The CFP #1 seed has not yet won. The CFP #4 has won 2 of 5. It is very obvious that pollsters don't know who is best. In 2014 I don't think anyone really thought Alabama and Oregon weren't the best two. Yet they both got whipped by Ohio St. And TCU and Baylor got left out. TCU destroyed Ole Miss in a bowl who beat #1 Alabama.

I want it decided on the field. Conference championships and AQs do that.

You can't even compare conferences because there are so few games between conferences. How do we know anybody in the Big 10 other than Ohio St. deserves even a top 20 ranking? How do we really know Baylor deserves a top 20 ranking? Or maybe Texas, Oklahoma St., Kansas St. and Iowa St. are really all top 20 teams but have a bunch of losses because they beat up on each other? After all, UGA, the #2 team in the SEC lost 37-10 to LSU. Texas, in a 4 way tie for 3rd in the Big 12 lost 45-38. There is simply not enough data for a bunch of people in a room to accurately evaluate teams. Any statistician will tell you 12 or 13 data points cannot be reliably used to make a projection.

You cannot rely on the transitive theory. Like I said - I don't care who the best 4 are as long as it is [basically] the best 4 and I also don't care who the odd man out ends up being. If it's TCU getting left out in 2014 - too bad. The difference between 4/5 or 8/9 (or whatever the line is) will never be significant enough to really matter (except for the team on the outside looking in and their fans of course).

My point has less to do with who doesn't get in and more so with who does - as long as there are no guaranteed spots have 20 teams for all I care. Because it is football, there will never be enough teams allowed in to have a "basketball system" in place to pick teams.

Beyond 4 teams starts to dilute the playoff, in any given year there may be somewhere between 3 - 6 teams that could win and IMO it is fairly rare if there are more than 4 that can win it. Even of there are 6 legitimate contenders #7 & #8 are the equivalent of a playoff version of a body bag game - No thank you.

I agree with the first part that the transitive property can't really be applied. Otherwise, my 6-6 alma mater of Illinois should be in the Rose Bowl because we beat Wisconsin... or even better, 6-6 Eastern Michigan should be in the Rose Bowl because they beat Illinois who in turn beat Wisconsin. We can do this all day with an infinite number of permutations, so it's ultimately a pointless exercise (albeit fun).

However, I'd disagree that #7 and #8 would be body bag games assuming that an 8-team playoff takes 3 at-larges. I don't think that either #7 Baylor or #8 Wisconsin this year could ever be considered body bag games even if they wouldn't necessarily be favored. Most years, we have a pretty clear sense of the top 2 or 3 teams, but the rest of the top 10 are usually interchangeable and would certainly be threats in any given game.

I'd also disagree about discounting the "odd man out." When you have multiple teams with similar records and accomplishments (e.g. a P5 conference championship) and you start excluding them because of a subjective committee, it does put pressure on the system because we're using a subjective exercise to determine what should be an objective process (winning games on the field). I truly believe that having an 8-team playoff with P5 autobids alleviates that pressure: there aren't talking heads obsessed with whether the Big 12 is better than the Pac-12 this year or vice versa, every team in America (at least in the P5) understands that it has an *objective* on-the-field way to get to the playoff (winning a conference championship), and if you don't win your conference championship, then it's at *that* point you're left to being judged on a subjective basis by a bunch of random guys in a conference room in Dallas (because you didn't take care of business on the field).

(12-10-2019 09:50 AM)TTT Wrote:  

(12-09-2019 08:09 PM)esayem Wrote:  If a team loses a CCG, then they should be disqualified. In the P5, they’re already playing a neutral site game with implications. This would set-up the P5 CCG’s as a de facto first round.

I don’t think there’s any reason why Georgia, Wisconsin, Baylor, etc. deserve a second chance at playing a team they just lost to at a neutral site.

So had undefeated LSU/OSU lose by 1 point in their conference CG...you would bump them from the CFP??

What I’m saying is considering the P5 CCG’s, which are at a neutral site, as an “opening round” you would go from an 8 team playoff to a 13 team playoff.

So to answer your question, yes.

Records are a stupid thing to go by, you want the best teams at the end of the season. If you lose a CCG, you’re not playing your best football at the end of the regular season, when it counts the most.

(12-10-2019 08:09 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  This year the 4 team system worked very well. In most years, not so much. I am for 8 teams, I think 16 is plain dumb. 5 p5 champs plus 1 from G4, plus 2 at large. Often you will have 1 or 2 that don't belong, but that just make a Cinderella run possible, which is a good thing not bad. (see Ncaa tournie)

Yeah there really is not much of a debate. This year it worked out perfectly. LSU, Ohio State, and Clemson have mostly been dominate and are all undefeated. Oklahoma was the clear 4.

Every other year I would have liked the 8 team playoff. Do I think anyone would have knocked off the champion in other years? Na, but often times 3,4,5,6,7,8 are debatable and all those teams are still worthy of deserving their shot to win it all IMO.