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Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-24-2019 10:10 PM)OwlSquared Wrote:  A bit OT, but yesterday TAMU-CO upset Tarleton St. to advance to the D II Playoff 2nd Round against CO School of Mines
https://www.ncaa.com/game/3909062

That's probably a good place for Bailiff. I'm still not sure he can sustain, but he can have some good years there.
11-24-2019 10:21 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-24-2019 10:10 PM)OwlSquared Wrote:  A bit OT, but yesterday TAMU-CO upset Tarleton St. to advance to the D II Playoff 2nd Round against CO School of Mines
https://www.ncaa.com/game/3909062

Next up is Colorado School of Mines - to be played on Saturday at 1:00 CST in Golden, Colorado at Marv Kay Stadium. That stadium is built on the site of the original stadium, first used in 1893 - the oldest west of the Mississippi River.
11-25-2019 06:57 AM
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That Guy 2012 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 06:57 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:10 PM)OwlSquared Wrote:  A bit OT, but yesterday TAMU-CO upset Tarleton St. to advance to the D II Playoff 2nd Round against CO School of Mines
https://www.ncaa.com/game/3909062

Next up is Colorado School of Mines - to be played on Saturday at 1:00 CST in Golden, Colorado at Marv Kay Stadium. That stadium is built on the site of the original stadium, first used in 1893 - the oldest west of the Mississippi River.

The CSM Orediggers have one of my favorite logos in sports: a bucking donkey with a lit stick of dynamite in its mouth. Here's hoping the live mascot, Blaster, isn't ever put in such a hazardous situation.

[Image: CSM_Orediggers_logo.png]
11-25-2019 09:59 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-24-2019 09:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 04:01 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 03:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  My understanding is that Cephus has work to do in the classroom but could be back next year if that’s resolved.

Hope he makes it. Cephus, Rozner, Trammell & Pitre et al could be quite an impressive route-running/pass-catching arsenal, if everything else (OL protection, QB performance, coaching/scheme innovation) is up to snuff.

And Bailey and Knipe.

We have receivers. Need a QB.

Expanding on the QB situation, it hurts that after eleven games of experimentation, the one who emerges is the grad transfer.

I think too many eggs are being placed in the Jovani basket for next year. I want to see a spectacular QB recruit this year.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2019 10:11 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
11-25-2019 10:10 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 10:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Expanding on the QB situation, it hurts that after eleven games of experimentation, the one who emerges is the grad transfer.
I think too many eggs are being placed in the Jovani basket for next year. I want to see a spectacular QB recruit this year.

I still think the QB position may be the hardest to fill in this scheme. I think we have a much better chance to recruit a runner who can throw than a classic drop-back passer. And I'm almost as doubtful that we can recruit o-linemen who can blow defenders off the line consistently enough to pound the rock and can protect a drop-back passer. I think we do better with schemes that allow decisions to be made on the run, after the snap--things like option running attacks, RPOs, and passing schemes that allow receivers to adjust their routes.

I guess one reason why I like the old Bob Wagner/Paul Johnson Hawaii scheme so much is because I think that Garrett Gabriel was the kind of QB that we can recruit--not a great runner or passer, but a great distributor of the ball to people who could run.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2019 10:34 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
11-25-2019 10:32 AM
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westsidewolf1989 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-24-2019 09:36 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 09:26 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 03:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  My understanding is that Cephus has work to do in the classroom but could be back next year if that’s resolved.

Encouraging that he's still on campus; even more so that if he gets his act together he could be back to help next season. Hope they can help him (legit, of course) do what he needs to do. Hope he makes the effort.

Good news: owls win two in a row on football filed for first time in a while.
Bad news: previous coach used to do this end-season win a few against CUSA also-rans and fool us into thinking we had turned some corner.

Reality is: it is better to win than to lose, but also that we won't be able to tell a thing about the program until we play about half the games next season. Did we get better enough to beat real teams? No way to tell no matter what happens in final game. Can we beat dregs of one of worst football conferences? For the time being, yes, sometimes. Again, better than doughnut, but a very long way to go. (Maybe if they renovate those HRS bathrooms? Maybe; maybe not.)

Q: Did Coach Bloom save his job with these wins?
A: IMO, he was never in real danger even if he baked the doughnut; Rice doesn't buy out coaches no matter how bad they perform.

Hope is: that Coach Bloom, while receiving some on the job "training' has adjusted enough to figure out he has to do something better (and different) than he might have intended coming in. Also that his capable assistants need more input than him, and that any incapable ones if they contributed to previous failure may need to be demoted or go.

But overall, happy for the players who have stuck with it. Now, hit the weights and those books.

PS: Who will be QB next season? Are we "developing" one for next year or will we have to figure it out all over again?

Johnson looks like a guy who'll win that job, probably handily

Johnson + Green + Marshman + I'm sure whatever grad transfer Bloomgren can fish out of the bargain bin.

Biggest concerns on offense next year are the fact that we only have ~240 of our nearly 1,300 rushing yards returning (excluding Knipe and Trammell's yards) and that our offensive line is going to need some rebuilding. That's assuming Trammell isn't on pace to graduate in three years / thinking of doing a grad transfer year.

A 3-9 record would be a great finish to the season, but doesn't change my requirement for Bloomgren's retention post-2020 season, which is that we need to make a bowl next year. Should be as simple as beating Lamar, beating one of Army/UH and going 4-4 in C-USA play. Bailiff got fired for missing a bowl in three straight years, no reason Bloomgren should get more time.
11-25-2019 11:00 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 10:32 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 10:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Expanding on the QB situation, it hurts that after eleven games of experimentation, the one who emerges is the grad transfer.
I think too many eggs are being placed in the Jovani basket for next year. I want to see a spectacular QB recruit this year.

I still think the QB position may be the hardest to fill in this scheme. I think we have a much better chance to recruit a runner who can throw than a classic drop-back passer.

Didn't Jovani look like that kind of QB though? He's clearly fast and mobile. Not sure we've seen enough of him yet to really judge his throwing, but we know he can run. Marshman basically doesn't seem on the depth chart, but he can run. Towns ran track (hurdles) in high school and presumably is pretty mobile. Green looked like a turnover-prone version of Stewart, so not tons of mobility.
11-25-2019 11:02 AM
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Kayjay Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-24-2019 04:01 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 03:47 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  My understanding is that Cephus has work to do in the classroom but could be back next year if that’s resolved.

Hope he makes it. Cephus, Rozner, Trammell & Pitre et al could be quite an impressive route-running/pass-catching arsenal, if everything else (OL protection, QB performance, coaching/scheme innovation) is up to snuff.

First and foremost, (if the above is true) I hope Aaron Cephus is able to focus, maintain academic eligibility and get his degree from Rice. That is far more important than any contribution on the gridiron he may make in the future. If he is also able to return to the field and contribute it will be a good bonus for him and the team. I hope he (and the coaches) keep that perspective in developing the person as well as the player.
11-25-2019 11:02 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 11:02 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 10:32 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 10:10 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Expanding on the QB situation, it hurts that after eleven games of experimentation, the one who emerges is the grad transfer.
I think too many eggs are being placed in the Jovani basket for next year. I want to see a spectacular QB recruit this year.
I still think the QB position may be the hardest to fill in this scheme. I think we have a much better chance to recruit a runner who can throw than a classic drop-back passer.
Didn't Jovani look like that kind of QB though? He's clearly fast and mobile. Not sure we've seen enough of him yet to really judge his throwing, but we know he can run. Marshman basically doesn't seem on the depth chart, but he can run. Towns ran track (hurdles) in high school and presumably is pretty mobile. Green looked like a turnover-prone version of Stewart, so not tons of mobility.

But my point is that kind of QB doesn't really fit Bloomgren's scheme. He is looking for more of the Tommy Kramer/Andrew Luck type. But Jovani--and others like him--are whom we can get. We can get the good athlete who can run and is a good enough passer to put up good numbers in HS--the kid that TexasU says, "Come here and we will make you a safety." But he wants to play QB--and can effectively, if you give him a scheme where you use his feet to get the defense out of shape and then throw to the resulting wide open receiver. Andre Ware was option QB in HS and was recruited by Yeoman to run the veer--and we know how that turned out. Will Bloomgren change the scheme to accommodate his skill set--and those of the others you listed--or will we try to pound more square pegs into round holes?

I think it is very telling that we have run through how many QBs in two years and have yet to find one truly suited to run this offense.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2019 12:19 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
11-25-2019 11:32 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
I like Jovani - but he is the only egg in the basket it seems. We have been disappointed before by QBs not living up to expectations.
11-25-2019 11:37 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 11:32 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But my point is that kind of QB doesn't really fit Bloomgren's scheme. He is looking for more of the Tommy Kramer/Andrew Luck type. But Jovani--and others like him--are whom we can get. We can get the good athlete who can run and is a good enough passer to put up good numbers in HS--the kid that TexasU says, "Come here and we will make you a safety." But he wants to play QB--and can effectively, if you give him a scheme where you use his feet to get the defense out of shape and then throw to the resulting wide open receiver. Andre Ware was option QB in HS and was recruited by Yeoman to run the veer--and we know how that turned out. Will Bloomgren change the scheme to accommodate his skill set--and those of the others you listed--or will we try to pound more square pegs into round holes?

I think it is very telling that we have run through how many QBs in two years and have yet to find one truly suited to run this offense.

Isn't that basically the kind of QB Chase Clement was for us?
It seems Hat had him kind of tamped down in his scheme, but Todd Graham came in and opened him up--was it because he saw what Clement was capable of, or was it just a coincidental and/or unintended byproduct of the offense Graham chose to change to in Year 1?

Was TG, for all his personal faults, the kind of coach who comes in and says something like: "What have we got to work with this year? okay, the best way to win with what we have is to do this. So I will do this."

Or was he just a very lucky know-nothing that good things happened for despite his efforts to thwart success?

I'd like a coach and staff (and I'm fine if Coach Bloom has/or is morphing into one) that asks: "What have we got to work with here, and what can we realistically get to come here and work with us, and then whatever is the best way to get the most wins from them I'll do, and system be damned if I can't get it to work with what I've got. Only requirement is no country club atmosphere. Any of those I'll run off quickly and without regret or remorse."

I think difference ion when Todd came in after Hat and when Bloom came in after last guy is that Hat himself had reached the end of his energy,l but his players were still good and worked hard and thus had not. Thus, new blood immediately was able to jump-start them to a bowl.

With last guy, players he recruited, especially last three-four years, were mostly softer, unable to compete at G5 level (forget about P5.) So, apples and oranges, and perhaps the reason for the slower start and the designation of a Year Zero.

Problems are that:
A) We have to wait longer to see if this is true, as the two or three games win/to be won this season is no better than previous guy often did to get us to keep him here, and
B) an entire generation of players have been added and become football alumni where they are perhaps not overall what we needed to right the ship (though a couple of quality players individually were worthy and capable), but are attached to previous guy personally and perhaps to the detriment of moving the school's program forward (i.e. more inclined to the country club atmosphere and/or D-II or D-III type players who might well have had great success at those levels but instead were asked to come here.)

Once again, if we want to know the answers we'll have to stay the course. If we get fooled again and Coach Bloom is not capable, we're in same boat we have been in for last decade and a half. Either way, after next year (or rather half of next year) we should either continue or cut bait with this coach. But I have doubt the admin will look at it that way, based on what has transpired in past.

If we were proactive, we'd go for the Transformation. But we have not seemed to want that here. So, beat UTEP and hope we can get it done with this guy so we don't have to start over with someone more or less like him. We don't seem to want Transformative guys to lead our football team at Rice.
11-25-2019 01:17 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
What does "going for the Transformation" look like? How do you know if a guy is Transformative before hiring him?

Does a Transformative succeed in Year One no matter what he has to work with?
11-25-2019 01:42 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 01:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  What does "going for the Transformation" look like? How do you know if a guy is Transformative before hiring him?

Does a Transformative succeed in Year One no matter what he has to work with?

In some ways, it depends on how you define success.... and what you're trying to 'transform' from or in to.

Again, I think the challenge will be 'what's next'. As an example, I think many would say the defense has improved. If it has, then others will notice and want to hire away the guys responsible for it. What do we do when that happens? It seems that when that happened with DB, we stopped being able to coach and/or recruit
11-25-2019 04:20 PM
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Exclamation RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 01:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  1. What does "going for the Transformation" look like? 2. How do you know if a guy is Transformative before hiring him?

3. Does a Transformative succeed in Year One no matter what he has to work with?

In some ways, it depends on how you define success.... and what you're trying to 'transform' from or in to.

Again, I think the challenge will be 'what's next'. As an example, I think many would say the defense has improved. If it has, then others will notice and want to hire away the guys responsible for it. What do we do when that happens? It seems that when that happened with DB, we stopped being able to coach and/or recruit

Ham had a good start there.

Since I offered it, I'll try to answer Frizzy's queries from my perspective:

1. Up front, it appears spending the money to compete for top coaches at the level you WANT the program to be at, not the level you are used to spending or the level you are at now is the optimal way to get into and stay in the Top 25. This likely includes being willing to and spending the buyout money a few times if the guy you hire doesn't pan out after a few seasons, so you don't let the cost sink paralyze and decay your program overall. Everyone makes missteps, and it appears from the successful programs you have to build in the ability to quickly pivot into the Transformative attitude. Without it, you seem to stand much less chance for sustained success (as we have seen.) Paying a bad or mediocre coach you already have more to appear competitive seems to actually hurts your program, again as we have seen here at Rice. Cutting bait before too much damage is done by a bad or mediocre coach seems more prudent in the long term.

2. You never seem to absolutely, but you certainly appear to have strong clues to which coaches have better odds by listening to the market. If a coach (let's take Grinch, or Leach, for example, back before they were where they are now) is constantly touted as the next great candidate by Top25 schools (versus P5 also-rans or G5 mid to bottom pack schools) that seems to be a better indication that once or twice out of 3 times, he'll right the ship and ignite your program. Money is certainly a partial indicator, and if you aren't willing to compete with dollars for the big names then you have less chance of finding a diamond in the rough. That said, those diamonds are out there, certainly. And they often get snapped up after sparkling at a lesser program. To say that you intend to Transform a bad or mediocre program over time by solely looking for that diamond in the rough several times in a row is difficult (Boise did do it) but near-impossible when you have the academic restrictions of Rice placed on top.

The exception to this is probably someone completely unconventional, like RUOWLS is for Rice. But it still takes a lot of money to get him away from his successful medical career. The downside is you don't know if he'd actually be able to do what he says because he has no major coaching experience. Then again, major league baseball seems pretty comfortable these days handing managerial jobs to former players who never coached before, and some of them do pretty well. The upside is he'd be less likely to leave if he was successful. The truth is he probably could do no worse than the present coach or the one before. He was a helluva player, and he seems to know a lot, so why not roll the dice. if we still stink, nothing has changed and we'd have the answer to that equation at least.

3. Ask Todd Graham (I suspect many don't want to, and I certainly understand why--but look at the TYPE of coach not the actual individual, which is what I try to do in that case.) It can happen. But better football minds here than me were and still are highly skeptical that Pound the rock is a winning strategy over time at Rice. Maybe at other G5 schools, but OWl#s has pointed to the types of QBs we are more easily able to get, and Bloom's stated style does not appear to be one that can be had consistently at Rice over time, if at all.

We saw the more recent QBs the last guy had, before he was finally canned, and they were just not up to snuff on the filed. Nice guys, great people, but not winners at Rice.

Chase Clement was a diamond in the rough other schools missed, and even Hat found him, but his system probably would not have unleashed Chase's full potential. It took a guy who was willing to turn everything upside down here to see that potential and allow it to be ultilized. Sure he was a jerk, but what if we could find a TG-type of coach (NOT TG himself) who wasn't? I believe there are several out there.

We'd have to pay money upfront. We don't want to. That's why we stink. But we're still losing millions of dollars either way. Penny smart, pound foolish. Unconventional 'wisdom' indeed. Can't stand that the football or basketball coach might make more salary than the President or most professors.

By the way, it's the end of Year 2, going into Year 3, and Rice football still stinks--not Year 1, so that's an inaccurate diversion from the actual point. Let's hope Coach Bloom studies over the offseason, and changes enough to get a 7-4 or 8-3 team on the field next year, including an upset against one of the better non-conference teams. then we may have something different and potentially Transformative. If not, then it's just another flavor of same-ol', same ol'. We need that run of six or seven zero or one loss seasons in a row. We are experts in how to identify the guys who will get you several 1, 2 or 3 win seasons in a row.

Another great point Ham makes is Rice never seems to have a plan for "What's next." And it shows. A long-term strategy (not platitudes) identifies what and how we will do when a successful coach or assistant leaves. Paying bigger money than others (at mid-to-top P5 level) is one way to keep them here, and/or attract equivalent or better talent.

You can't run a top-notch program on the cheap. Rice has proven that ad-nauseum, yet still insists it it right. Rice is wrong. College football, is right. Then again, Rice doesn't seem to be dominated by the kinds of people that can accept that reality in many areas. So I guess they would be best to cut the whole thing. But that ruins the value of our degrees, short and long term, and there are still many of us who didn't sign up for that, came to Rice because it was a good school with D-I sports and played their friends' schools on the same fields year in and year out. It would be a shame to destroy that tradition just because the elites that run it are too stubborn to admit the truth of real-world competition. I certainly didn't have any desire to go to Case Western or RPI, though they have some merits as schools. I and many others wanted the total college experience, which at the time Rice still had. But that does appear where the little school is headed, ever so painstakingly.

Owl#s, Ham, Nightowl, RUOWLS and a few others can tell you who to look at and what to look for. All would appear to agree what we're doing and who we're getting is not really working.
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2019 05:22 PM by GoodOwl.)
11-25-2019 05:05 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?

Ok, let's try that for a while.
11-25-2019 06:24 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 06:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?

Ok, let's try that for a while.

I would throw plenty of money at Brian Smith.
11-25-2019 06:27 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 06:27 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?
Ok, let's try that for a while.
I would throw plenty of money at Brian Smith.

I would throw money at both Smith and Mack, and I would turn the offense over to Mack, if I were Bloomgren. Be a Mack Brown figurehead, you've got people on both sides of the ball who can get it done without you.
11-25-2019 07:47 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 07:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:27 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?
Ok, let's try that for a while.
I would throw plenty of money at Brian Smith.

I would throw money at both Smith and Mack, and I would turn the offense over to Mack, if I were Bloomgren. Be a Mack Brown figurehead, you've got people on both sides of the ball who can get it done without you.

I agree. But don’t completely abandon the ball control aspects of #IB. That ball control aids in allowing the defense to play at a high level.
11-25-2019 08:54 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 08:54 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 07:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:27 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?
Ok, let's try that for a while.
I would throw plenty of money at Brian Smith.
I would throw money at both Smith and Mack, and I would turn the offense over to Mack, if I were Bloomgren. Be a Mack Brown figurehead, you've got people on both sides of the ball who can get it done without you.
I agree. But don’t completely abandon the ball control aspects of #IB. That ball control aids in allowing the defense to play at a high level.

But I prefer ball control by making first downs, instead of taking forever to get out of the huddle.
11-25-2019 09:17 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Rice v UNT: *Post*-game Thread
(11-25-2019 08:54 PM)Pan95 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 07:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:27 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(11-25-2019 06:24 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, throw money at coaches, and if that doesn't work, throw more money?
Ok, let's try that for a while.
I would throw plenty of money at Brian Smith.

I would throw money at both Smith and Mack, and I would turn the offense over to Mack, if I were Bloomgren. Be a Mack Brown figurehead, you've got people on both sides of the ball who can get it done without you.

I agree. But don’t completely abandon the ball control aspects of #IB. That ball control aids in allowing the defense to play at a high level.

I was going to write a snark about 'ball control' with PTRKTC, but apparently Rice rushing does 3.3 yds / carry. Why does that seem like at least 20% higher than I ever expected as a max?
11-26-2019 12:15 AM
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