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Divisions may be going away
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Post: #61
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 11:20 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I’m fully on board with 3-4 annual rival/nearby schools and rotate the rest

It’s the best of both worlds

You protect the rivalries that matter while making sure every generation of players and students gets a chance to see a game vs every conference mate home and away

It makes a lot of sense

For A&M, protect Arkansas and LSU and we’re good. We can rotate through everyone else

A&M doesn't have ties like the rest of the SEC does. A&M, Missouri and Arkansas are not like the rest.
11-24-2019 10:34 AM
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Post: #62
RE: Divisions may be going away
The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.
11-24-2019 10:46 AM
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Post: #63
RE: Divisions may be going away
I've said all along divisions are not needed to determine a champion with the incorporation of the conference CG.
11-24-2019 10:49 AM
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Post: #64
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.
You are correct that in 2002 both Iowa and OSU went 8-0 in the Big Ten conference. But in a strange twist, neither Iowa nor OSU went to the Rose Bowl that year.
11-24-2019 11:21 AM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 10:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 11:20 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I’m fully on board with 3-4 annual rival/nearby schools and rotate the rest

It’s the best of both worlds

You protect the rivalries that matter while making sure every generation of players and students gets a chance to see a game vs every conference mate home and away

It makes a lot of sense

For A&M, protect Arkansas and LSU and we’re good. We can rotate through everyone else

A&M doesn't have ties like the rest of the SEC does. A&M, Missouri and Arkansas are not like the rest.

A&M has plenty of ties and history with Arkansas and LSU so in this setup it makes sense that they be 2 of the 3 protected rivalry games.

The third game would be Missouri since they are the ones who have no real ties to anyone in the SEC and we are the next closest thing from the B12 days.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 12:40 PM by 10thMountain.)
11-24-2019 12:39 PM
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Post: #66
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 11:21 AM)goofus Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.
You are correct that in 2002 both Iowa and OSU went 8-0 in the Big Ten conference. But in a strange twist, neither Iowa nor OSU went to the Rose Bowl that year.

Two 8-0 or 9-0 teams would face in the CCG. If you have a pack of three 8-1 or 7-1 teams tie breakers for who plays would almost certainly be used to determine with head to head first then probably playoff ranking.

No system is perfect, but the CCG solves >80% of the tie problems (game it out and you'll see that is true).

Of course you could get a log jam. Say Michigan beats Ohio State next week and Wisconsin beats Minnesota. You'd have Ohio State at 8-1 and four schools: Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin and Minnesota at 7-2. Who do you pick? Probably the highest ranked, which I suspect would be ... Michigan having beaten Ohio State.
11-24-2019 01:01 PM
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Garrettabc Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Divisions may be going away
I like that the SEC’s hands are tied and are basically forced to keep their 14 team conference and division structure as is. A few years ago the ACC tried to get the other conferences to go along with a change that allowed conference autonomy or deregulation, nobody supported it because the ACC wanted it. Now that it seems that the SEC and AAC want it, I hope the ACC vetos this proposal. You made your bed now you must lay in it.

The divisions in the ACC are fine and it seems everybody in the Coastal division is happy. No need for the ACC to do their jerk neighbors any favors.
11-24-2019 01:07 PM
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Post: #68
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.
11-24-2019 01:39 PM
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Post: #69
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 01:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I like that the SEC’s hands are tied and are basically forced to keep their 14 team conference and division structure as is. A few years ago the ACC tried to get the other conferences to go along with a change that allowed conference autonomy or deregulation, nobody supported it because the ACC wanted it. Now that it seems that the SEC and AAC want it, I hope the ACC vetos this proposal. You made your bed now you must lay in it.

The divisions in the ACC are fine and it seems everybody in the Coastal division is happy. No need for the ACC to do their jerk neighbors any favors.

The SEC could switch to a 6-0-2 and allow a 9th nonconference game against an SEC opponent. Kentucky and Mississippi St. don't really care about each other. Same for A&M and South Carolina. LSU and Florida would really prefer not to be stuck with such a tough game every year. Missouri and Arkansas have no history. So that leaves UGA-Auburn, Tennessee-Alabama and Vandy-Ole Miss.

With a 6-0-2 you could set it up one of two logical ways:
1) Everyone in the other division 4 times in 14 years
2) One team every other year (you could use the current fixed every year rivalries so that 9th game would only be every other year) with 6 played 2 out of 8 years.
11-24-2019 01:44 PM
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Post: #70
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 01:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I like that the SEC’s hands are tied and are basically forced to keep their 14 team conference and division structure as is. A few years ago the ACC tried to get the other conferences to go along with a change that allowed conference autonomy or deregulation, nobody supported it because the ACC wanted it. Now that it seems that the SEC and AAC want it, I hope the ACC vetos this proposal. You made your bed now you must lay in it.

The divisions in the ACC are fine and it seems everybody in the Coastal division is happy. No need for the ACC to do their jerk neighbors any favors.

Dont forget, the Big10 has also expressed an interest in no divisions. So, three out of 5 P5 conferences would probably like the idea of at least having the OPTION to go divisionless using just a 8 or 9 game conference schedule. Right now, the a 14 team conference cannot go divisionless as it would require a 13 game round robin. A 12 team conference would have to play an 11 game conference schedule in order to to hold a divisionless CCG. Under the current rules---a conference with more than 10 teams really has no practical ability to utilize the divisionless CCG portion of the rule. Its single season full round robin requirement is too onerous for larger conferences.

Frankly, I think its time to just deregulate the CCG completely. What difference does it really make? Let the Big 10 decide how to crown its champion and let the Sunbelt do the same. If you think the way the Big10 is crowning their champ gives them some sort of an advantage--then your conference would be free to crown your champion in the same way if it wants to do so. Back before there were CCG's---every conference made up their own rules for tie breakers (just like they do now for divisional tie breakers). Its time to just let each conference decide how to crown their champion. This really should never have been that big a deal.

https://www.si.com/college/2018/12/06/ji...nt-playoff
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 02:14 PM by Attackcoog.)
11-24-2019 02:03 PM
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Post: #71
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 02:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I like that the SEC’s hands are tied and are basically forced to keep their 14 team conference and division structure as is. A few years ago the ACC tried to get the other conferences to go along with a change that allowed conference autonomy or deregulation, nobody supported it because the ACC wanted it. Now that it seems that the SEC and AAC want it, I hope the ACC vetos this proposal. You made your bed now you must lay in it.

The divisions in the ACC are fine and it seems everybody in the Coastal division is happy. No need for the ACC to do their jerk neighbors any favors.

Dont forget, the Big10 has also expressed an interest in no divisions.

https://www.si.com/college/2018/12/06/ji...nt-playoff

Oh I have not forgotten. Jim Delaney made some flimsy attempt to explain the BigTen’s position that absolutely made no sense. I’m not sure if the B10 has changed their position or not, but the other conferences had a chance to support the ACC’s proposal and since the ACC has placed a team in the playoffs since its inception, the ACC has little to gain from a change in division format.
11-24-2019 02:13 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 02:13 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 02:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:07 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I like that the SEC’s hands are tied and are basically forced to keep their 14 team conference and division structure as is. A few years ago the ACC tried to get the other conferences to go along with a change that allowed conference autonomy or deregulation, nobody supported it because the ACC wanted it. Now that it seems that the SEC and AAC want it, I hope the ACC vetos this proposal. You made your bed now you must lay in it.

The divisions in the ACC are fine and it seems everybody in the Coastal division is happy. No need for the ACC to do their jerk neighbors any favors.

Dont forget, the Big10 has also expressed an interest in no divisions.

https://www.si.com/college/2018/12/06/ji...nt-playoff

Oh I have not forgotten. Jim Delaney made some flimsy attempt to explain the BigTen’s position that absolutely made no sense. I’m not sure if the B10 has changed their position or not, but the other conferences had a chance to support the ACC’s proposal and since the ACC has placed a team in the playoffs since its inception, the ACC has little to gain from a change in division format.

Placing teams in the playoff was never the issue for he ACC. They were looking for a way to preserve key rivalries while still allowing every school to play every other school more often. Currently, a kid could play for one ACC school and finish his career never having played against certain ACC schools in the other division. This is an issue that the larger 14 member conferences are seeing---long gaps between playing members of the other division. This is an even bigger issue when the membership of each division is somewhat contrived to begin with.

Here is the dirty little secret-----I think we are starting to realize as college football fans that while there are clear and understandable economic factors for why college conferences are at 14 and may perhaps even become larger---we are also staring to realize that from a fan/competitive stand point----a 10 member conference is probably the best balance between economic factors (big enough footprint to provide for media value) and small enough so every team plays every other team every year (best for conference cohesion and rivalry development). Now, no conference is going to give up the extra money the big conference model has provided or cull members---but they are likely to start looking at ways to create more cohesion and interaction between member schools.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 08:19 PM by Attackcoog.)
11-24-2019 02:21 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 05:05 PM)ColKurtz Wrote:  The bylaws would have to be changed. Currently it's either 2 divisions for 12+ team conferences, or full round robin for conferences with less than 12 to allow a CCG. Not even sure the ACC would support changes unless ND joined in football, allowing them to go to three 5-team divisions.

The ACC already tried to have the championship game deregulated and was denied so why would they not be in favor of it now that other P5 conferences are looking into it?
11-24-2019 03:06 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Divisions may be going away
The SEC and Big 10 provide a platform easily appropriated by the networks to drive content matchups since both conferences contain at least 5 schools capable of making a run on any given year.

Divisions are an obstruction to the creation of content laden schedules.

Rivalries are an obstruction to more inclusive schedules within the current division system.

Conferences have slowly realized that holding onto divisions is self limiting financially.

I expect to see conferences keep an 8 game schedule with 4 protected rivalries and 4 games that rotate annually with the home and home aspect worked out on the rotational turn. A conference of 16 members can therefore cycle through the schedule in 3 years while keeping games important to the alumni. This will increase scheduling flexibility while simultaneously allowing for higher content games with 4 OOC games all of which will eventually be against other P competition. It will also keep donors satisfied and engaged.

It will also provide a structure which if necessary can be expanded to 20 or more schools if necessary, although 16 is probably still the sweet spot.

So this kind of move leaves further restructuring as a possibility, if not likelihood, should condensing the content become a new revenue driver in the future. It ends divisions which have absolutely proved faulty for everyone but the Big 12 which didn't need them. And it is the easiest way to satisfy every A.D. who has worried that expansion would kill their rivalry games for which the donation structure was built on the fans ability to secure the away tickets. 4 protected games will allow schools like Alabama and Auburn with multiple rivals of long duration to protect them, and schools like North Carolina with so many in state rivals to do the same, and schools like the California schools to do the same. Toss in the main games for the Big 10 and it solves most conference's scheduling woes.

Now toss in 4 OOC games and it permits important in state but cross conference rivalries enough breathing room so as not to be challenged by more realignment. If Texas schools wind up in different conferences it gives the flexibility to cover those. It protects Iowa/Iowa State, could allow for Colorado/Nebraska, keeps Ga/GaTech, Kentucky/Louisville, Clemson/South Carolina, and Florida/Florida state while allowing more room for Florida/Miami.

And it is for all of these reasons that it is highly likely that the Big 10 and SEC will be in agreement for the change and to date anything that the SEC and Big 10 has agreed upon has been done by the NCAA. And for good reason has it been done. Should the SEC and Big 10 ever both agree it was in their best interest to start a breakaway the NCAA couldn't stop them.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 03:36 PM by JRsec.)
11-24-2019 03:33 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.

Wait, are we talking about conference titles or the 4 playoff spots? This sure sounds like the current CFP process...

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11-24-2019 04:12 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 12:39 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 11:20 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I’m fully on board with 3-4 annual rival/nearby schools and rotate the rest

It’s the best of both worlds

You protect the rivalries that matter while making sure every generation of players and students gets a chance to see a game vs every conference mate home and away

It makes a lot of sense

For A&M, protect Arkansas and LSU and we’re good. We can rotate through everyone else

A&M doesn't have ties like the rest of the SEC does. A&M, Missouri and Arkansas are not like the rest.

A&M has plenty of ties and history with Arkansas and LSU so in this setup it makes sense that they be 2 of the 3 protected rivalry games.

The third game would be Missouri since they are the ones who have no real ties to anyone in the SEC and we are the next closest thing from the B12 days.

The point is the A&M is barely tied to the SEC. 10 schools in the SEC have been together for 100 years. So that A&M only cares about 2 schools is totally irrelevant.
What matters is the ties of those 10 schools with close ties.
11-24-2019 04:40 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 04:12 PM)usffan Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.

Wait, are we talking about conference titles or the 4 playoff spots? This sure sounds like the current CFP process...

USFFan

Yes, and pushing it down to the conference level.
11-24-2019 04:43 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 04:12 PM)usffan Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.

Wait, are we talking about conference titles or the 4 playoff spots? This sure sounds like the current CFP process...

USFFan

If the two teams with the best conference record play for the championship and the champion moves onto the CFP, how is that a problem? Tie breakers or not it is decided on the field and without a committee determining the entrants. Each conference can decide on their own tiebreakers. The team they put fort is still their champion won on the field within their own rules.

Bullet you know I respect you as a poster, but in this case you seem to simply be against change that may actually enhance the game. The days of 10 member conferences are gone and we aren't going back. They don't provide enough of a market footprint for the advertisers, and the networks get tired of ritualistic schedules. Having 4 permanent games and rotating the rest will keep things fresher and having the 4 OOC games with which to set up cross conference rivalries appeals to them as well for enhancing content. Like a lot of evolution I'm not sure we can stop it.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 04:53 PM by JRsec.)
11-24-2019 04:50 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 04:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 04:12 PM)usffan Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.

Wait, are we talking about conference titles or the 4 playoff spots? This sure sounds like the current CFP process...

USFFan

If the two teams with the best conference record play for the championship and the champion moves onto the CFP, how is that a problem? Tie breakers or not it is decided on the field and without a committee determining the entrants. Each conference can decide on their own tiebreakers. The team they put fort is still their champion won on the field within their own rules.

Not arguing with you at all. I'm arguing that the people who are complaining about things being decided by "obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests" seem to be less bothered by the fact that that is exclusively how the four participants in the CFP are decided.

USFFan
11-24-2019 04:53 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-24-2019 04:53 PM)usffan Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 04:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 04:12 PM)usffan Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 01:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-24-2019 10:46 AM)westwolf Wrote:  The problem with division-less is that you could have ties between or among teams which have not met in the season. Granted that matters only in the top 2 or 3 spots. I remember when Iowa and Ohio St were both undefeated in Big 10 play before divisions, and OSU was picked for the Rose Bowl. Big howl in Iowa. At least with divisions that doesn't arise in this era of overtime.

Yes. It no longer gets decided on the field. It gets decided by obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests. Its one thing when obscure tiebreaks decide the last wildcard in the NFL. Its something else when it decides who plays for a conference championship.

In these 14 team conferences, it would not be totally out of the realm of possibility to have three 8-0 teams. In the SEC, Georgia would not play LSU or Alabama every year. If LSU and Alabama didn't play every year, you could have that. In the Big 10 imagine Michigan or Ohio St., Wisconsin and Penn St.

Wait, are we talking about conference titles or the 4 playoff spots? This sure sounds like the current CFP process...

USFFan

If the two teams with the best conference record play for the championship and the champion moves onto the CFP, how is that a problem? Tie breakers or not it is decided on the field and without a committee determining the entrants. Each conference can decide on their own tiebreakers. The team they put fort is still their champion won on the field within their own rules.

Not arguing with you at all. I'm arguing that the people who are complaining about things being decided by "obscure tiebreaks or beauty contests" seem to be less bothered by the fact that that is exclusively how the four participants in the CFP are decided.

USFFan

Yeah, everybody in the FBS agreed to this format. The funny thing is that they go out of their way to weight the selection away from weaker schedules, and not all conferences are of equal strength and that seems to be the bigger bone of contention.

I still wouldn't be surprised to see 3 twenty member conferences emerge some day and when it does the media revenue will be more or less equalized and that will help competitiveness to a certain extent. If we do I think the conference CCG's will serve as the AQ and 1 at large will be selected. That keeps many more fan bases energized through the end of the season and is why the NFL as a business model loves wild card slots. It keeps butts in the seats a lot longer when a dominant team has the conference title wrapped up with 3 weeks to go. And college football is a business.

With that one wild card slot up for grabs it would affect multiple teams in each conference through the last weekend of play and that's simply good for the game. 20 member conferences gives advertisers a reason to pay higher rates to reach that audience not only with national advertising but regional advertising as well. The reduction in conferences from 5 to 3 will save all of the conference salaries x 2 plus add back the sale of their corporate buildings to their former members. Officiating would be easier to organize and pay at a rate to discourage gambling influences which have a huge back door for interference right now. I simply see conference consolidation and the streamlining of officiating as being something that will be good for the game. And that wild card will bring hope to many who otherwise might loose interest halfway through the season.

BTW: If you want a fair inclusion of the top G5 just form a 4th conference of 20 with an AQ and move to a CFP of 8 schools four of which are AQ conference champs and 4 or at large who play the first round against one of the AQ's at their home field. After the first round you move to neutral sites. That would guarantee that a current P5 wild card would play at the home of the what is likely to be a current G5 school's home stadium. That gives much more access and hope than the present system does.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 05:07 PM by JRsec.)
11-24-2019 05:03 PM
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