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Divisions may be going away
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Divisions may be going away
Here's my divisionless setup for the SEC with 3 protected opponents.

SEC
Code:
ALABAMA         Auburn          Tennessee       LSU            
ARKANSAS        Texas A&M       Missouri        Mississippi St  
AUBURN          Alabama         Georgia         Florida        
FLORIDA         Georgia         South Carolina  Auburn          
GEORGIA         Florida         Auburn          South Carolina  
KENTUCKY        South Carolina  Vanderbilt      Tennessee      
LSU             Ole Miss        Texas A&M       Alabama        
MISSISSIPPI ST  Missouri        Ole Miss        Arkansas        
MISSOURI        Mississippi St  Arkansas        Texas A&M      
OLE MISS        LSU             Mississippi St  Vanderbilt      
SOUTH CAROLINA  Kentucky        Florida         Georgia        
TENNESSEE       Vanderbilt      Alabama         Kentucky        
TEXAS A&M       Arkansas        LSU             Missouri        
VANDERBILT      Tennessee       Kentucky        Ole Miss

[Image: MVrRKpq.png]
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2019 07:06 PM by Nerdlinger.)
11-22-2019 08:56 PM
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Shannon Panther Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Divisions may be going away
It wouldn't surprise me to see them keep a 12 member minimum for a championship game without divisions or round robbin play. That way the AAC doesn't gwt an advantage of playing one without 12 members. The desire for a championship game was what drove the expansion to 12 in the first place.
11-22-2019 09:06 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #23
RE: Divisions may be going away
ACC protected crossovers with 3-5/5:

BC: Cuse Pitt Miami
Cuse: BC Pitt UVA
Pitt: Cuse BC VT
L’ville: VT WF FSU
VT: UVA L’ville Pitt
UVA: VT UNC Cuse
UNC: Duke NC St UVA
Duke: UNC WF GT
NC St: UNC WF Clemson
WF: NC St Duke L’ville
Clemson: FSU GT NC St
GT: Miami Clemson Duke
FSU: Miami Clemson L’ville
Miami: FSU GT BC

I’m sure the ACC crowd will chime in with their critiques. It’s a rough league to try and nail key rivalries
11-22-2019 09:27 PM
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chester Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 08:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is what Ive been saying since summer. Anyone who thinks the AAC is the only one interested in a rule change allowing a divisionless CCG with an 8 game schedule hasnt been paying attention. The biggest recent hint was the fact that the AAC would be allowed to do just that for the next two years. Now...why would they allow the AAC to do something no other conference (even the P-5's) can do? Well...they allowed it because they had a good idea that everyone WOULD be able to do it soon.

That makes sense... At the very least, you'd think that there are conferences that are...interested in how AAC fans will take to a divsion-less, RR-less CG. Such a thing could go a long way in improving the ridiculously long scheduling cycles in some of the larger conferences.
11-22-2019 11:54 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 08:52 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  While I am resigned to the fact that divisionless will probably be a thing in the near future and that for 14 member conferences like the ACC, SEC, and Big Ten a 3-5/5 or 5-4/4 scheduling model would be desired I still don’t like it. I think a lot of folk will be dissatisfied when someone gets left out due to an ugly tie breaker scenario and I like the idea of putting division winner in that game. With that said, recent history has produced some very crummy division winners.

Between the more frequent rotation of opponents and an expanded playoff which will increase opportunities for teams that don't win conference titles, I think most people will be pretty satisfied.

Of course, there will inevitably be some situation where someone thinks their team got screwed. That's only human nature, but I don't think that will be commonplace.
11-23-2019 12:23 AM
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Shannon Panther Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Divisions may be going away
Pitt and Miami are long term rivals. They played regularly even before the Big East days. Pitt has very little history with BC. Pitt's 3 regulars should be Syracuse, VT, and Miami.
11-23-2019 12:36 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Divisions may be going away
I dont think networks will be interested in divisionless conf
11-23-2019 01:47 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 01:47 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  I dont think networks will be interested in divisionless conf

The networks don't care. There is no more interest in Kentucky vs. Missouri or Utah vs Arizona or Minnesota vs Nebraska being in the same division or not. If division-less football means more rivalry games and a better match-up for the CCG then they will be happy. Ohio State vs. Penn State does not require they be in a division. But it definitely helps all schools being in one division.
11-23-2019 01:59 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 12:23 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 08:52 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  While I am resigned to the fact that divisionless will probably be a thing in the near future and that for 14 member conferences like the ACC, SEC, and Big Ten a 3-5/5 or 5-4/4 scheduling model would be desired I still don’t like it. I think a lot of folk will be dissatisfied when someone gets left out due to an ugly tie breaker scenario and I like the idea of putting division winner in that game. With that said, recent history has produced some very crummy division winners.

Between the more frequent rotation of opponents and an expanded playoff which will increase opportunities for teams that don't win conference titles, I think most people will be pretty satisfied.

Of course, there will inevitably be some situation where someone thinks their team got screwed. That's only human nature, but I don't think that will be commonplace.

Thats what Im thinking. The real issue is how do you do it while protecting annual rivalries. I'd like to see them largely deregulate the CCG replacing the current fairly rigid CCG rule with just a few basic guidelines. I'd say the rotations must be regular must have played every other team in the conference at least once every 4 years. Thats it. Thats all I'd require. That should be enough to ensure basic uniformity and fairness while allowing every conference to schedule in the way that fits each conference best.

You want 2 divisions---thats fine. You want no divisions and have the two top teams play each year---that works too. You want 3 or 4 4-team pods---knock yourself out. Just get out of the way and let every conference create a method for their own CCG that is perfect for their specific membership----as long as it follows a couple of very basic concepts (its a regular rotation and every team plays every other team in the conference at least once every 4 years).
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2019 03:26 AM by Attackcoog.)
11-23-2019 03:24 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.
11-23-2019 07:47 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 07:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.

In moving from 8 to 9 conference games:

You also hand half your conference an automatic win.

It doesn't have to limit the number of quality OOC opponents unless each team is using all 4 OOC games to play quality opponents.

A team may have 4 home and 5 away conference games in one season, but they will have 5 home and 4 away the next season. So it all balances out.
11-23-2019 08:36 AM
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Ohio Poly Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 04:33 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  SEC Looking to Change Scheduling

With the SEC looking to change and the ACC I bet you'll see divisions disappear and the conference championship games become the 1 and 2 teams in conference. Would be best for the American as well at 11 schools.

1 and 2 teams by what criteria?
11-23-2019 08:58 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 08:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 07:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.

In moving from 8 to 9 conference games:

You also hand half your conference an automatic win.

It doesn't have to limit the number of quality OOC opponents unless each team is using all 4 OOC games to play quality opponents.

A team may have 4 home and 5 away conference games in one season, but they will have 5 home and 4 away the next season. So it all balances out.


Some teams use at least of one if not two of their OOC games to play a non quality opponent. This is done for several reasons, but in the SEC, it is usually done for a payday and/or a breather before a big conference game.
11-23-2019 09:11 AM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 06:22 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 06:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Or they could go back to 12 teams and do a 5-1-2.

Interesting

Now just out of curiosity, which two teams do you think should leave and where should those teams end up?

Arkansas and Missouri fit least well. The other options would be the #11 team South Carolina and #13 Texas A&M.

I think the East would be better realigned into 4 10-12 team leagues with a rebirth of a version of the Big East. There are 44 P5 teams in the East (14+14+15+WVU)
(This post was last modified: 11-23-2019 09:42 AM by bullet.)
11-23-2019 09:41 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 08:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 07:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.

In moving from 8 to 9 conference games:

You also hand half your conference an automatic win.

It doesn't have to limit the number of quality OOC opponents unless each team is using all 4 OOC games to play quality opponents.

A team may have 4 home and 5 away conference games in one season, but they will have 5 home and 4 away the next season. So it all balances out.

Handing half of your conference an automatic win while handing the other half an automatic loss means you have gained absolutely nothing in the long run. At least with the extra OOC game you have an opportunity for a majority, if not all, of your conference teams to pick up a win while weakening the resume of another conference. Granted, you could lose all of the extra games but at least the conference has the opportunity to make gains instead of the assured .500.

There’s very few teams who play 9 conference games and play two quality OOC games. When the ACC tried to stupidly go to 9 games it wasn’t the cupcake games teams dropped, it was the P5 games. Clemson dropped series with Ole Miss and Oklahoma State in order to maintain seven home games and the revenue they bring in for the school.

It does you little good to have five home games next year when your roster is built for this year when you have four home games.
11-23-2019 09:53 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 12:36 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  Pitt and Miami are long term rivals. They played regularly even before the Big East days. Pitt has very little history with BC. Pitt's 3 regulars should be Syracuse, VT, and Miami.

Why Virginia Tech, when they have much more history with NC State, Wake Forest, and arguably BC? Plus the givens of Virginia and probably Miami (see hoops scheduling partners). If it comes to it, I'd even match Louisville with VaTech (should be the current cross-division) over Pitt-VaTech.

I'd look at the current basketball scheduling partners as a starting point. Every team has their current football cross-division, plus one other. Pitt has Louisville and Syracuse. I think that's who Pitt will have, plus Miami (if they're lucky).

BC also has a rich history with Miami, which was hampered by the divisions in the first place. So that one would be interesting to see who wins the Miami prize.
11-23-2019 10:07 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 08:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  This is what Ive been saying since summer. Anyone who thinks the AAC is the only one interested in a rule change allowing a divisionless CCG with an 8 game schedule hasnt been paying attention. The biggest recent hint was the fact that the AAC would be allowed to do just that for the next two years. Now...why would they allow the AAC to do something no other conference (even the P-5's) can do? Well...they allowed it because they had a good idea that everyone WOULD be able to do it soon.

Yep. Hopefully this will put an end to the incessant threads that have dominated the AAC board from fans of schools lobbying to be the new 12th member. I think this is exactly why Aresco has felt confident that the temporary waiver has a chance to become permanent.

Texas A&M is playing at Georgia today. Why is that noteworthy? They've never met on the football field as members of the SEC! Which wouldn't be a big deal, but Texas A&M joined the SEC during Obama's first term. The last time they played each other was in the 2009 Independence Bowl. I think that is what's going to drive some of this...

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11-23-2019 10:17 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 09:53 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 08:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 07:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.

In moving from 8 to 9 conference games:

You also hand half your conference an automatic win.

It doesn't have to limit the number of quality OOC opponents unless each team is using all 4 OOC games to play quality opponents.

A team may have 4 home and 5 away conference games in one season, but they will have 5 home and 4 away the next season. So it all balances out.

Handing half of your conference an automatic win while handing the other half an automatic loss means you have gained absolutely nothing in the long run. At least with the extra OOC game you have an opportunity for a majority, if not all, of your conference teams to pick up a win while weakening the resume of another conference. Granted, you could lose all of the extra games but at least the conference has the opportunity to make gains instead of the assured .500.

There’s very few teams who play 9 conference games and play two quality OOC games. When the ACC tried to stupidly go to 9 games it wasn’t the cupcake games teams dropped, it was the P5 games. Clemson dropped series with Ole Miss and Oklahoma State in order to maintain seven home games and the revenue they bring in for the school.

It does you little good to have five home games next year when your roster is built for this year when you have four home games.

If your argument is that a conference has a roughly equal chance of having a winning record OOC as they do a losing one, how is that better than a guaranteed 0.500?

If a power conference has 9 conference games, then it doesn't need as many OOC power games as a conference with only 8 games.

Some teams will be good in the years they have 5 home conference games, some teams won't, some will be good when they have 4, some won't. It all evens out.
11-23-2019 10:43 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-22-2019 07:35 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:48 PM)Wedge Wrote:  All we have is Jimbo Fisher talking off the cuff for a few seconds at his weekly press appearance. And here is everything he said:

Quote:“I know they’re looking at some formats going forward that keep the three main and rotate five and all those things,” Fisher said. “I think it is good for your players, eventually, to play everybody in the conference. I really do believe that…. When you have conferences as big as you have now, that’s kind of the way it goes.”

There haven't been any specific proposals publicly made by any major conference. So the question is who is "they" that Jimbo refers to? The only "they" he would be in connection with is his own conference.

That and a 3-5 plan would specifically fit the current SEC model. Everyone else except the ACC is playing 9 games and I don't see why he'd have any information on what the ACC would be looking at.

South Carolina’s prior president said at a BOT meeting this summer that this is something the SEC is studying and would presumably be lobbying for
11-23-2019 10:57 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Divisions may be going away
(11-23-2019 10:43 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 09:53 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 08:36 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 07:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 05:06 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Or they could play 9 conference games.

Nine conference games is stupid unless you are a ten member conference. The negatives far out-weigh the positives. You cycle through your conference mates faster, but you hand half your conference an automatic loss, you limit the number of quality OOC games your teams play, and the scheduling imbalance of 5 home conference games for half the league vs 4 home conference games for the other half.

In moving from 8 to 9 conference games:

You also hand half your conference an automatic win.

It doesn't have to limit the number of quality OOC opponents unless each team is using all 4 OOC games to play quality opponents.

A team may have 4 home and 5 away conference games in one season, but they will have 5 home and 4 away the next season. So it all balances out.

Handing half of your conference an automatic win while handing the other half an automatic loss means you have gained absolutely nothing in the long run. At least with the extra OOC game you have an opportunity for a majority, if not all, of your conference teams to pick up a win while weakening the resume of another conference. Granted, you could lose all of the extra games but at least the conference has the opportunity to make gains instead of the assured .500.

There’s very few teams who play 9 conference games and play two quality OOC games. When the ACC tried to stupidly go to 9 games it wasn’t the cupcake games teams dropped, it was the P5 games. Clemson dropped series with Ole Miss and Oklahoma State in order to maintain seven home games and the revenue they bring in for the school.

It does you little good to have five home games next year when your roster is built for this year when you have four home games.

If your argument is that a conference has a roughly equal chance of having a winning record OOC as they do a losing one, how is that better than a guaranteed 0.500?

If a power conference has 9 conference games, then it doesn't need as many OOC power games as a conference with only 8 games.

Some teams will be good in the years they have 5 home conference games, some teams won't, some will be good when they have 4, some won't. It all evens out.

When you have 9 conference games it basically harms any program that has a permanent out of conference rival.

You can say “well nothing is stopping them from scheduling 9+2” but that’s just being obtuse
11-23-2019 11:01 AM
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