Yeah, it would have nice to beat the Irish on their home court. More important than the loss was the
experience the 3 freshmen of UT's 8 man rotation
got. This game had the feel of postseason tournament play. Pressure, pressure,pressure.
Road game, good hostile crowd, some questionable calls,OT, etc. This game will go a long way for helping to prepare the team for the MAC season and tournament time. It's going to be an exciting year.

(11-22-2019 09:00 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Yeah, it would have nice to beat the Irish on their home court. More important than the loss was the
experience the 3 freshmen of UT's 8 man rotation
got. This game had the feel of postseason tournament play. Pressure, pressure,pressure.
Road game, good hostile crowd, some questionable calls,OT, etc. This game will go a long way for helping to prepare the team for the MAC season and tournament time. It's going to be an exciting year.

I am not so sure this loss is very helpful. Hard fought losses help teams that are used to winning but have become cocky or lackadaisical, but all they teach teams that haven't been winning is that we are still not good enough to win. You are right, though, that it had a tournament type atmosphere, which was a good experience for Saunders, Maranka, and Smith.

I wish someone could scroll back through this board and find how many “good, close, hard fought losses” that will help us down the road.

Would love to see this play out just once in mid March.

(11-22-2019 10:40 AM)adunifon Wrote:  I wish someone could scroll back through this board and find how many “good, close, hard fought losses” that will help us down the road.

Would love to see this play out just once in mid March.

You're talking team. I'm talking 3 Freshmen in an 8 man rotation.They will determine how successful the team will be this season.

This loss to ND isn't going to be what keeps us from an "at large" bid in the NCAA tournament.

Even if we had won that game, our overall strength of schedule isn't very good at the moment, and I don't think it's going to improve enough that a marquee win over the Irish would get us in, unless we only had 3 or 4 losses for the season (and we all know what usually happens to most MAC teams during MAC play).

I agree with Boca: this was a potential learning opportunity on the early road. We have no idea how good ND will end up being, just as we have no idea how good the Rockets will end up being. Yes, if we had shot better, or made a few more FTs, we probably win the game; but, if ND had shot better, or made a few more FTs (they actually missed more than we did), then THEY probably win. The reality is that both teams struggled quite a bit, and yet on the road we still went toe-to-toe with an ACC team. There have been seasons when, even if ND had struggled as much as they did, they still would have beat us by 10+ points.

So, there were no real surprises from that game. Poor shooting as the equalizer, we lost largely due to turnovers, missed FTs, and depth issues (losing Littleson did hurt). We've seen this same movie more seasons that not lately. BUT, these things can all be addressed, and maybe this is the season where there is improvement over the next 15 games or so.

Saunders played his worst game in his very short college career thus far (especially the turnovers); but, if he has one of those games for every 4 or 5 he plays, that's a small price to pay for his development. Smith & Maranka combined for about 11 minutes of court time and had essentially nothing to show for it (there's the difference between playing Howard and playing ND). They, too will have more games like that over the next 15 games--but each time, they can get a little more experienced and a little better for us. If Accunzo really does see the court by the time we're in conference play, even better.

I still believe that this team will be playing it's best basketball in February & March. We will have a couple close losses before then, and probably a stinker game or two, as well. But games like this loss to ND can pay off, and I think we go through the second half of the MAC schedule with only a loss or two, and become a really tough team to play during the MAC tournament.

(11-22-2019 10:40 AM)adunifon Wrote:  I wish someone could scroll back through this board and find how many “good, close, hard fought losses” that will help us down the road.

Would love to see this play out just once in mid March.

Still have Wright ST coming in.

(11-22-2019 12:38 PM)bcunn3128 Wrote:  This loss to ND isn't going to be what keeps us from an "at large" bid in the NCAA tournament.

Even if we had won that game, our overall strength of schedule isn't very good at the moment, and I don't think it's going to improve enough that a marquee win over the Irish would get us in, unless we only had 3 or 4 losses for the season (and we all know what usually happens to most MAC teams during MAC play).

I agree with Boca: this was a potential learning opportunity on the early road. We have no idea how good ND will end up being, just as we have no idea how good the Rockets will end up being. Yes, if we had shot better, or made a few more FTs, we probably win the game; but, if ND had shot better, or made a few more FTs (they actually missed more than we did), then THEY probably win. The reality is that both teams struggled quite a bit, and yet on the road we still went toe-to-toe with an ACC team. There have been seasons when, even if ND had struggled as much as they did, they still would have beat us by 10+ points.

So, there were no real surprises from that game. Poor shooting as the equalizer, we lost largely due to turnovers, missed FTs, and depth issues (losing Littleson did hurt). We've seen this same movie more seasons that not lately. BUT, these things can all be addressed, and maybe this is the season where there is improvement over the next 15 games or so.

Saunders played his worst game in his very short college career thus far (especially the turnovers); but, if he has one of those games for every 4 or 5 he plays, that's a small price to pay for his development. Smith & Maranka combined for about 11 minutes of court time and had essentially nothing to show for it (there's the difference between playing Howard and playing ND). They, too will have more games like that over the next 15 games--but each time, they can get a little more experienced and a little better for us. If Accunzo really does see the court by the time we're in conference play, even better.

I still believe that this team will be playing it's best basketball in February & March. We will have a couple close losses before then, and probably a stinker game or two, as well. But games like this loss to ND can pay off, and I think we go through the second half of the MAC schedule with only a loss or two, and become a really tough team to play during the MAC tournament.

Good post bcunn. I knew we were in trouble when Littleson fouled out. I hope Saunders improves his mental game. He has a ton of talent but wants the ball and tries to do too much which leads to turnovers, wild shots and poor passes. When the conference season starts there is no way I want to see him on the floor at the end of a tight game unless he learns to play under control. I'd like to see more of TJ Smith who plays good defense, rebounds and plays within the team concept.

(11-22-2019 09:00 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Yeah, it would have nice to beat the Irish on their home court. More important than the loss was the
experience the 3 freshmen of UT's 8 man rotation
got. This game had the feel of postseason tournament play. Pressure, pressure,pressure.
Road game, good hostile crowd, some questionable calls,OT, etc. This game will go a long way for helping to prepare the team for the MAC season and tournament time. It's going to be an exciting year.

+1 It sounded like (I unfortunately did not get to watch) Saunders had a game like the first exhibition game where he appeared to be nervous and unsure of himself. Judging by what he has done since then except for this game it looks to me that he will learn from this and next time he is in this situation and play better. The only thing I will say about depth is since Acunzo is not playing I would like them to get Donovon Moore some playing time because if anything happens to one of the other guards he will have to play a significant role this season. I however would not have played him this game unless foul trouble had dictated it. I am impressed by what I saw of him against Howard. Hopefully will see him play significant time today.

This was the first time I got to see Toledo play this year. There are way too many what if’s. ND stole this game. Alderson not looking for the ball on the ND inbounds to the most likely guy to receive it, Knapke not calling time-out when double teamed on the Toledo inbounds, missing the front end of the 1 and 1 opportunities, Saunders getting bound up in traffic when Toledo had to have a score. Toledo looked like they belonged on the court, for sure. Willie Jackson is a rebounding machine, M. Jackson is really quick. Fantastic PG. Saunders is a diaper dandy. This team is really gonna be good as it grows together.

I disagree with the folks that did not see great value in the loss to ND. I do not remember too many games when UT was playing stride for stride with a national level program ON THE ROAD and be in it at the end during the TK era. I did not see the game but read the stats play-by-play. We are leading at half and ND makes a run to start the second. In most every game with TK that is where we would fold and be done. All I can say is that I do think this group is different and that they will benefit from that tourney like experience. I like what I have seen so far. This is a far better group playing as a selfless team offensively and with far more interest in defense that any TK group before. Worry about our bench or lack of it but so far a much better feel about this group of Rockets.

Hope to catch a game or 2 in Toledo.

some cogent and well stated perspectives previously by 51, PTL, BCunn, Boca

It stings. Yeah, it's a good loss in the sense we competed in an intense game against a big name team on their court. and that it could make us grow up a little faster. Sucks because it was a signature win there for taking. beating a prominent P5 on the road isn't a golden ticket to the tourney. ND could come together and go 12-6 or have injuries and never gel at 6-12 in the ACC. either way a win on their court and a strong mac season keeps you in the bubble conversation. with Valpo off to a great start UT is looking at 2 potential Quad 1 wins lost at the buzzer. sure, there's only 2 or 3 or 4 mid major at-large berths out there, so odds are against you, but if Toledo aspires to truly be a "high" mid major and be challenging for MAC titles and bubble talk you gotta win some of these. A 5-0 UT -so close- is an early season "should be in" with multiple quality road wins. so, if we're gonna break the jinx we need these games.

as for the team if marreon stays healthy and keeps getting better as the season progresses, we should be in the conference mix. we really need Luke to be consistently good. If he plays clean games, does his usual thing, but handles the ball well, stays out of foul trouble and knocks down the easy ones. we are very tough. how are 5-8 guys develop is huge. he's gotta have the mindset and practice skills to be more nathan boothelike with his ballhandling. there's potential, but it's been up n down. saunders is a hot or cold player for sure. he's gotta be able to have a bad half and come back with a solid one. if smith or maranka can grow their role just a bit or a different guy emerges, it's a big help. i see maranka make a decent play followed by a bad one and then a great one. he's a winner, imo, and i think he and AJ (if health stays with them) will ultimately be the rockets whose names we now know to have the greatest legacy since the glory days. that said, he's underweight and learning. there's a lot of growing to do. he's only gonna get so good this year and could hit the freshman wall and be a non-factor down the stretch.

The roster is actually still in flux. Acunzo is still hobbled by the dreaded foot injury. he's now had nearly 2 years of shelf life with a few painful months of playing on a unhealed broken foot mixed in. and, most recently, a nerve problem. increasingly, the goal is to have him gradually get his foot to 100% and have a career at some point, more than suit him up this season. so, now you have your top potential bench ballhandler likely out for the year. perhaps unsurprisingly, gavin bizeau has put in for an immediate eligibility waiver. he's underweight too. but a 6-11 guy with some ballhandling and shooting skills plus a year of college ball under his belt and could help bring that 5-8 rotation together should he get eligible. it does not seem like etherington or moore will play. i think if either was pushing coach to expand his rotation to 9 they would have played real minutes in the howard game on the backend of the back to back. yeah, moore got in late and made some plays. i think he's got some ability. but he still hasn't played a minute with a game on the line. etherington looks like a rs they will develop because of his combination of shooting range and athletlcism. word is AJ Edu has healed so fast he could be cleared to practice in a couple months, but I imagine they stick with the original plan and bring him back slowly.

right now, you look to see if the team is fired up by the body blow and developing more of an edge, or if they still look a little stunned.

There is a 9-10 minute highlight video by ACC Digital
Network on YouTube. After watching the video, I realized that this was even a better game than I thought.

To your point Boca, those freshmen showed up against Northwestern Ohio. Night and day competition but still . . . .

That game should have been a 5-10 point win for the Rockets...
With Edu in the lineup and if Chris Darrington could have had his eligibility held off for this season, I think Toledo would have blown ND’s doors off ...
Jackson and Darrington would be too quick for the Irish, and Edu with his D, would have controlled underneath...

[quote='FMRocket' pid='16487776' dateline='1574698177']
That game should have been a 5-10 point win for the Rockets...
With Edu in the lineup and if Chris Darrington could have had his eligibility held off for this season, I think Toledo would have blown ND’s doors off ...
Jackson and Darrington would be too quick for the Irish, and Edu with his D, would have controlled underneath...
[/quote

With Edu it certainly would have been a Rocket win.