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POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
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vandiver49 Online
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Post: #21
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.
12-04-2019 06:42 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 06:00 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tampa? I thought Tampa wanted to build a park.

If not, MLB and the Rays would be wiser to double/triple down in NYC, LA or Dallas (not Arlington, Tarrant County) than open any market in the US. Mexico City and maybe Vancouver are the only logical new markets to explore (or Monterey but only after MXC is proven and established).

LA? 03-lmfao Where the hell are they gonna play? And who's gonna build (sorry - pay for) the stadium? Angels aren't exactly selling out their place - this market is close to if not at saturation.
12-04-2019 07:29 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #23
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.
12-04-2019 10:04 PM
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Post: #24
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

What is the deal on the Florida MLB market? They love spring training down there or MLB wouldn't have it down there. Both the Marlins and the Rays have won World Series yet they somehow can't get traction on fans.
12-04-2019 10:16 PM
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Post: #25
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 10:16 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

What is the deal on the Florida MLB market? They love spring training down there or MLB wouldn't have it down there. Both the Marlins and the Rays have won World Series yet they somehow can't get traction on fans.

I can think of at least two problems:
1) Spring training is less than 2 months. Loving baseball for a few weeks is a lot easier than for 162 games.
2) Lots of Florida residents are from somewhere else. Spring training works for those folks because they can see their teams. Doesn't really work for a season's worth of games in Miami or Tampa/St Pete, when your favorite team is only in town for a handful of games.
12-04-2019 11:13 PM
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Post: #26
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 11:13 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I can think of at least two problems:
1) Spring training is less than 2 months. Loving baseball for a few weeks is a lot easier than for 162 games.
2) Lots of Florida residents are from somewhere else. Spring training works for those folks because they can see their teams. Doesn't really work for a season's worth of games in Miami or Tampa/St Pete, when your favorite team is only in town for a handful of games.

Then shouldn't those demographics have been accounted for before bestowing bids?

And its not like the franchises have super sucked--at worst mediocre for any extended period of time.
12-04-2019 11:22 PM
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Post: #27
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 11:22 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 11:13 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I can think of at least two problems:
1) Spring training is less than 2 months. Loving baseball for a few weeks is a lot easier than for 162 games.
2) Lots of Florida residents are from somewhere else. Spring training works for those folks because they can see their teams. Doesn't really work for a season's worth of games in Miami or Tampa/St Pete, when your favorite team is only in town for a handful of games.

Then shouldn't those demographics have been accounted for before bestowing bids?

And its not like the franchises have super sucked--at worst mediocre for any extended period of time.

Bottom line: hubris. MLB saw those markets and said go. They were looking at population, TV viewers, regional opportunity. The numbers, I'm sure, showed interest in baseball and I doubt they even cared to look that deeply into them. They may not have even looked very closely at the possibility.
12-04-2019 11:59 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #28
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
In hindsight, MLB should have chosen Orlando instead of Tampa Bay for an expansion team, but maybe the proposed Orlando ownership wasn't as financially strong.

Demographics make all of these potential MLB markets problematic. None of them are particularly large; Orlando has the largest media market among them with about 1.5 million TV homes. Las Vegas is an even smaller market than MLB's current smallest markets, Milwaukee and Cincinnati.

MLB has made relocation more complicated by foolishly giving most teams local TV rights outside their home markets, which gives some teams incentive to try to block relocation into "their" TV territory. Any of those teams might demand money as compensation even though a relocated team is still hundreds of miles away.

Examples:
-- Mariners would lose Oregon from "their" TV territory if a team moved to Portland.
-- Reds and Braves are both televising "local" games in the Nashville market; Braves also send games into Charlotte.

We won't know for sure unless/until some metro area steps up with the money for a new ballpark, but if there was competition and other clubs raised a big stink about compensation, it might make it easier to get a Rays move approved for Orlando or Montreal than other places.
12-05-2019 01:22 AM
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Post: #29
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

Nashville is way too small.

There aren't many acceptable markets. Besides Montreal, maybe Portland and Charlotte. There are only 5 teams in MSAs smaller than 2.8 million and they are considered small market teams that have mostly struggled in the free agent era-Milwaukee, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Cleveland. And the latter two are over 3 million when you include close by Dayton and Akron.

Orlando is 2.6 and is too close to Tampa. Sacramento is 2.3 and is too close to Oakland. San Antonio is 2.5 but doesn't have a lot of corporate money.

MSA populations:
21. Baltimore 2.802 million
22. Orlando 2.573
23. Charlotte 2.569
24. San Antonio 2.518
25. Portland 2.478
26. Sacramento 2.345
27. Pittsburgh 2.324
28. Las Vegas 2.232
29. Cincinnati 2.190
30. Austin 2.168
31. Kansas City 2.144
32. Columbus 2.107
33. Cleveland 2.057
34. Indianapolis 2.049
35. San Jose 1.999
36. Nashville 1.931
37. Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.729
38. Providence 1.621
39 Milwaukee 1.576
12-05-2019 01:34 PM
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vandiver49 Online
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Post: #30
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-05-2019 01:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

Nashville is way too small.

There aren't many acceptable markets. Besides Montreal, maybe Portland and Charlotte. There are only 5 teams in MSAs smaller than 2.8 million and they are considered small market teams that have mostly struggled in the free agent era-Milwaukee, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Cleveland. And the latter two are over 3 million when you include close by Dayton and Akron.

Orlando is 2.6 and is too close to Tampa. Sacramento is 2.3 and is too close to Oakland. San Antonio is 2.5 but doesn't have a lot of corporate money.

MSA populations:
21. Baltimore 2.802 million
22. Orlando 2.573
23. Charlotte 2.569
24. San Antonio 2.518
25. Portland 2.478
26. Sacramento 2.345
27. Pittsburgh 2.324
28. Las Vegas 2.232
29. Cincinnati 2.190
30. Austin 2.168
31. Kansas City 2.144
32. Columbus 2.107
33. Cleveland 2.057
34. Indianapolis 2.049
35. San Jose 1.999
36. Nashville 1.931
37. Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.729
38. Providence 1.621
39 Milwaukee 1.576

I don't know how Nashville is way too small if it is still above MIL. Plus I'm sure they would count all of TN and southern KY as some of their potential viewers as well.

I do lean towards Wedge's statement that the Braves would block a Nashville move which is why I think MTL is the ultimate home for the Rays. But if that is the case, MLB has to find a way to buy out the Rays stadium deal.
12-05-2019 02:34 PM
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Post: #31
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-05-2019 01:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  Orlando is 2.6 and is too close to Tampa. Sacramento is 2.3 and is too close to Oakland.

Which is why Orlando is a possibility only if the Rays move there, and Sacramento would only be in the mix if the A's move there.
12-05-2019 02:47 PM
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Post: #32
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-05-2019 02:34 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-05-2019 01:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

Nashville is way too small.

There aren't many acceptable markets. Besides Montreal, maybe Portland and Charlotte. There are only 5 teams in MSAs smaller than 2.8 million and they are considered small market teams that have mostly struggled in the free agent era-Milwaukee, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Cleveland. And the latter two are over 3 million when you include close by Dayton and Akron.

Orlando is 2.6 and is too close to Tampa. Sacramento is 2.3 and is too close to Oakland. San Antonio is 2.5 but doesn't have a lot of corporate money.

MSA populations:
21. Baltimore 2.802 million
22. Orlando 2.573
23. Charlotte 2.569
24. San Antonio 2.518
25. Portland 2.478
26. Sacramento 2.345
27. Pittsburgh 2.324
28. Las Vegas 2.232
29. Cincinnati 2.190
30. Austin 2.168
31. Kansas City 2.144
32. Columbus 2.107
33. Cleveland 2.057
34. Indianapolis 2.049
35. San Jose 1.999
36. Nashville 1.931
37. Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.729
38. Providence 1.621
39 Milwaukee 1.576

I don't know how Nashville is way too small if it is still above MIL. Plus I'm sure they would count all of TN and southern KY as some of their potential viewers as well.

I do lean towards Wedge's statement that the Braves would block a Nashville move which is why I think MTL is the ultimate home for the Rays. But if that is the case, MLB has to find a way to buy out the Rays stadium deal.

The problem for Nashville is that it only has enough money for 2 major pro sports and MLS. Disposable income levels vary, probably meaning the median (not average necessarily) is low.

No current outstanding market, even if it can support a team, could routinely compete. The Rays could move to Orlando and be fine. The A's could move to Sacramento and be fine.

Give me a billion dollars and I buy one and move to either LA (LA proper or a beach city) or outer NYC/NJ.
12-05-2019 08:26 PM
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Post: #33
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-04-2019 07:29 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:00 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tampa? I thought Tampa wanted to build a park.

If not, MLB and the Rays would be wiser to double/triple down in NYC, LA or Dallas (not Arlington, Tarrant County) than open any market in the US. Mexico City and maybe Vancouver are the only logical new markets to explore (or Monterey but only after MXC is proven and established).

LA? 03-lmfao Where the hell are they gonna play? And who's gonna build (sorry - pay for) the stadium? Angels aren't exactly selling out their place - this market is close to if not at saturation.

That's because the Angels are in Orange County. LA has room for 3. It could fail but it could succeed.
12-05-2019 08:29 PM
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Post: #34
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-05-2019 08:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 07:29 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:00 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Tampa? I thought Tampa wanted to build a park.

If not, MLB and the Rays would be wiser to double/triple down in NYC, LA or Dallas (not Arlington, Tarrant County) than open any market in the US. Mexico City and maybe Vancouver are the only logical new markets to explore (or Monterey but only after MXC is proven and established).

LA? 03-lmfao Where the hell are they gonna play? And who's gonna build (sorry - pay for) the stadium? Angels aren't exactly selling out their place - this market is close to if not at saturation.

That's because the Angels are in Orange County. LA has room for 3. It could fail but it could succeed.

There is zero chance anyone paying attention to the NFL in LA is thinking we're ready for another professional team in ANY sport.
12-05-2019 10:48 PM
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Post: #35
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
That's because two teams with no recent local backing nor national fan following/tradition moved at the same time and after two full decades without a team.

If the Rams had stayed and a team joined them, it'd be better.

A third MLB in LA COULD work.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 07:06 PM by _C2_.)
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Post: #36
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
The wrong team joined the Rams, the Raiders would be killing it. Dumb decision making by all parties involved.
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Post: #37
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(12-05-2019 02:34 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-05-2019 01:34 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 06:42 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 02:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Not expanding, but now that St. Petersburg and the Rays have told each other to pound sand, they have 8 more seasons in St. Petersburg and can then relocate to anywhere.

Is anyone going to build a MLB ballpark for the Rays? Orlando? Charlotte? Montreal? Portland? Las Vegas?

I always felt Montreal and Nashville were the frontrunners for relocation. Vegas is just a non-starter IMO. Too many games, too little corporate money and the team would need a dome.

Agree that Nashville is a possibility. The snag at this point is the mayor publicly saying: No public funding for a ballpark. But that could easily change with a new mayor and/or if it looked like public money was the only thing standing in the way of the Rays moving there.

From the Rays' owner's point of view, why not basically have an open auction with all of these cities. He's not going to pay for a new ballpark himself.

Nashville is way too small.

There aren't many acceptable markets. Besides Montreal, maybe Portland and Charlotte. There are only 5 teams in MSAs smaller than 2.8 million and they are considered small market teams that have mostly struggled in the free agent era-Milwaukee, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Cleveland. And the latter two are over 3 million when you include close by Dayton and Akron.

Orlando is 2.6 and is too close to Tampa. Sacramento is 2.3 and is too close to Oakland. San Antonio is 2.5 but doesn't have a lot of corporate money.

MSA populations:
21. Baltimore 2.802 million
22. Orlando 2.573
23. Charlotte 2.569
24. San Antonio 2.518
25. Portland 2.478
26. Sacramento 2.345
27. Pittsburgh 2.324
28. Las Vegas 2.232
29. Cincinnati 2.190
30. Austin 2.168
31. Kansas City 2.144
32. Columbus 2.107
33. Cleveland 2.057
34. Indianapolis 2.049
35. San Jose 1.999
36. Nashville 1.931
37. Virginia Beach-Norfolk 1.729
38. Providence 1.621
39 Milwaukee 1.576

I don't know how Nashville is way too small if it is still above MIL. Plus I'm sure they would count all of TN and southern KY as some of their potential viewers as well.

I do lean towards Wedge's statement that the Braves would block a Nashville move which is why I think MTL is the ultimate home for the Rays. But if that is the case, MLB has to find a way to buy out the Rays stadium deal.

I have a feeling the Braves might take this approach...

Moving the Rays to Nashville wouldn't be that bad as long as the Braves are compensated by greater access to North and Central Florida. In other words, no team in Orlando under any circumstances. Before the Marlins showed up, the Braves were very popular across Florida for much the same reason they are popular in several other Southern states. TBS was broadcasting the games nationally and those markets didn't have a local team.

If you subtract the Rays from Florida and allow them into Nashville then the Braves haven't really lost any territory. For one, Nashville and everything in West Tennessee isn't really strong Braves territory anyway. The Reds are pretty popular and the Cardinals are pretty popular the closer you get to Memphis.

I imagine MLB would be counting on a regional fan base if they located in Nashville...fans from Memphis, Huntsville(AL), and East TN markets like Chattanooga, and Knoxville. They won't completely get their wish as much of East TN is Braves territory.

Now the situation would be very different if we were talking about the Rays moving to Charlotte. The Braves would pitch a fit over that.

Nonetheless, the Braves would rather the Rays move to Montreal so they get the best of both worlds. If that's not an option then Nashville is probably the 2nd best scenario as long as there's no subsequent expansion into Orlando.
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Post: #38
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
The TV territorial arguments can definitely be messy.

Charlotte is a good example. A Charlotte MLB club would want exclusive rights to televise games in North and South Carolina. Here's the MLB TV territory map. Look at all of the clubs who would lose markets in that case.

[Image: baseballterritorialmap.jpg]
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Post: #39
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(Yesterday 09:39 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  The wrong team joined the Rams, the Raiders would be killing it. Dumb decision making by all parties involved.

I don’t see how with the overwhelming opposition owners and even the city had to the idea of the Raiders returning. While I agree with you that fans would have came out for the Silver and Black, i don’t think anyone wants to see Mark Davis succeed.
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Post: #40
RE: POSSIBLE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL EXPANSION AND REALIGNMENT
(Yesterday 04:57 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(Yesterday 09:39 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  The wrong team joined the Rams, the Raiders would be killing it. Dumb decision making by all parties involved.

I don’t see how with the overwhelming opposition owners and even the city had to the idea of the Raiders returning. While I agree with you that fans would have came out for the Silver and Black, i don’t think anyone wants to see Mark Davis succeed.

He's right from a popularity standpoint - there is no question the fanbase is there. Hell, they've sold about $100MM more in SSLs in Vegas than they expected. Of course, what that really indicates isn't so much that LA is a hotbed but that Raiders fans, wherever they are in CA, will travel to Raiders games.

But your point is the relevant one to the argument: Neither the NFL nor LA (and this applies to pretty much every LA metro area city except Carson) wanted the Raiders. Al screwed the City of LA, he ripped off Irwindale, and he sued everybody. I think they'll be happy to have a new market in Las Vegas but I don't think they're particularly happy it's Mark Davis who is benefiting.
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