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Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
11-17-2019 07:03 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-17-2019 07:03 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?

Past time. All of us can monetize our basketball to the tune of between 20 to 25 million more without having the NCAA siphon off the funds in form of tourney credits which they take up to 6 years to pay out while earning interest compound on what is now 1 Billion a year, let alone utilize 2 endowments totaling over 1 Billion that they've skimmed off it over the years.

Leave and Indiana, Purdue, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, Syracuse, North Carolina, U.C.L.A., Oregon, and Michigan State will be worth a lot more to their respective conferences, or to the breakaway group as a whole. And football schools with good hoops will be worth a lot more as well.
11-17-2019 07:57 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
You don't have to leave the NCAA to get the tournament money. Hell that's easily fixed. Just start your own tournament, 65 teams and have at it.Split the money 65 ways or 5 ways whatever can be agreed on.

NCAA existed 33 years with no championship events.The NCAA was nothing but a playing rule making body. They didn't really even get into player eligibility until later. The power programs wanted the NCAA managing TV until they didn't. The only major initiative the power schools have ever put forward and didn't get was Division IV and that was because the power schools split on how to take in top non-football schools or whether to take them at all and three years later solved the problem by only addressing football via the initial I-A/I-AA split and that was simply to address the NCAA television agreement.

The handcuffs binding the P5 are velvet and only exist because the P5 asked for or at least consented to their existence.
11-18-2019 01:19 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 01:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  You don't have to leave the NCAA to get the tournament money. Hell that's easily fixed. Just start your own tournament, 65 teams and have at it.Split the money 65 ways or 5 ways whatever can be agreed on.

NCAA existed 33 years with no championship events.The NCAA was nothing but a playing rule making body. They didn't really even get into player eligibility until later. The power programs wanted the NCAA managing TV until they didn't. The only major initiative the power schools have ever put forward and didn't get was Division IV and that was because the power schools split on how to take in top non-football schools or whether to take them at all and three years later solved the problem by only addressing football via the initial I-A/I-AA split and that was simply to address the NCAA television agreement.

The handcuffs binding the P5 are velvet and only exist because the P5 asked for or at least consented to their existence.

There are other advantages to a breakaway with regard to structure, new rules, new enforcement regulations and enforcement, and the death of a bureaucracy, not to mention any impact it may have on nullifying current contracts or GORs. It's the quickest way from point A to point B.
11-18-2019 01:26 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 01:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  You don't have to leave the NCAA to get the tournament money. Hell that's easily fixed. Just start your own tournament, 65 teams and have at it.Split the money 65 ways or 5 ways whatever can be agreed on.

NCAA existed 33 years with no championship events.The NCAA was nothing but a playing rule making body. They didn't really even get into player eligibility until later. The power programs wanted the NCAA managing TV until they didn't. The only major initiative the power schools have ever put forward and didn't get was Division IV and that was because the power schools split on how to take in top non-football schools or whether to take them at all and three years later solved the problem by only addressing football via the initial I-A/I-AA split and that was simply to address the NCAA television agreement.

The handcuffs binding the P5 are velvet and only exist because the P5 asked for or at least consented to their existence.

There are other advantages to a breakaway with regard to structure, new rules, new enforcement regulations and enforcement, and the death of a bureaucracy, not to mention any impact it may have on nullifying current contracts or GORs. It's the quickest way from point A to point B.


University presidents aren't exactly noted for their hatred bureaucracy, especially one they created to control revenue by keeping it out of the hands of their ADs
11-18-2019 01:52 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
The biggest obstacle is, who's going to do it. Many people with expertise would have to devote a lot of time to building a new organization and doing everything it takes to exit from the NCAA.

The people who would do that all have full-time jobs already. There would have to be ADs and school presidents willing to invest the time on top of the jobs they already have. Not the nuts and bolts of drawing up bylaws and rules or whatever, they can hire consultants and lawyers to do that stuff. It's supervising those people, working to get every school involved to go along, lobbying, persuading, negotiating, dealing with whatever trouble might be caused by schools not joining the new group. That's a lot of extra work on the plate of those folks. Few if any qualified and connected people are volunteering to do that, at least until the relationship with the NCAA deteriorates to the point that those leaders are motivated to do it.
11-18-2019 02:06 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 02:06 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The biggest obstacle is, who's going to do it. Many people with expertise would have to devote a lot of time to building a new organization and doing everything it takes to exit from the NCAA.

The people who would do that all have full-time jobs already. There would have to be ADs and school presidents willing to invest the time on top of the jobs they already have. Not the nuts and bolts of drawing up bylaws and rules or whatever, they can hire consultants and lawyers to do that stuff. It's supervising those people, working to get every school involved to go along, lobbying, persuading, negotiating, dealing with whatever trouble might be caused by schools not joining the new group. That's a lot of extra work on the plate of those folks. Few if any qualified and connected people are volunteering to do that, at least until the relationship with the NCAA deteriorates to the point that those leaders are motivated to do it.

The organizing principle for the NCAA is now moot. That's reason enough.
11-18-2019 03:38 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
If it were me, I'd hire a Federal judge to be over this new organization. Federal judges know how to act decisively, and get all parties to agree. They also won't put up with any shenanigans either. If a program is going on probation, they are going on probation, and punishment will be according to what the offense was and if there was cooperation or not. As for the other positions, just pick from the conference commissioners and assistant commissioners.
11-18-2019 03:41 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 03:41 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  If it were me, I'd hire a Federal judge to be over this new organization. Federal judges know how to act decisively, and get all parties to agree. They also won't put up with any shenanigans either. If a program is going on probation, they are going on probation, and punishment will be according to what the offense was and if there was cooperation or not. As for the other positions, just pick from the conference commissioners and assistant commissioners.

Federal governmental involvement? 05-nono
11-18-2019 06:01 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 03:38 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 02:06 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The biggest obstacle is, who's going to do it. Many people with expertise would have to devote a lot of time to building a new organization and doing everything it takes to exit from the NCAA.

The people who would do that all have full-time jobs already. There would have to be ADs and school presidents willing to invest the time on top of the jobs they already have. Not the nuts and bolts of drawing up bylaws and rules or whatever, they can hire consultants and lawyers to do that stuff. It's supervising those people, working to get every school involved to go along, lobbying, persuading, negotiating, dealing with whatever trouble might be caused by schools not joining the new group. That's a lot of extra work on the plate of those folks. Few if any qualified and connected people are volunteering to do that, at least until the relationship with the NCAA deteriorates to the point that those leaders are motivated to do it.

The organizing principle for the NCAA is now moot. That's reason enough.

Player safety in football is not moot, it still plagues football.
11-18-2019 09:43 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 03:41 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  If it were me, I'd hire a Federal judge to be over this new organization. Federal judges know how to act decisively, and get all parties to agree. They also won't put up with any shenanigans either. If a program is going on probation, they are going on probation, and punishment will be according to what the offense was and if there was cooperation or not. As for the other positions, just pick from the conference commissioners and assistant commissioners.

Must be a baseball fan, Mountain Landis was perfect for baseball.
11-18-2019 09:44 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 02:06 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The biggest obstacle is, who's going to do it. Many people with expertise would have to devote a lot of time to building a new organization and doing everything it takes to exit from the NCAA.

The people who would do that all have full-time jobs already. There would have to be ADs and school presidents willing to invest the time on top of the jobs they already have. Not the nuts and bolts of drawing up bylaws and rules or whatever, they can hire consultants and lawyers to do that stuff. It's supervising those people, working to get every school involved to go along, lobbying, persuading, negotiating, dealing with whatever trouble might be caused by schools not joining the new group. That's a lot of extra work on the plate of those folks. Few if any qualified and connected people are volunteering to do that, at least until the relationship with the NCAA deteriorates to the point that those leaders are motivated to do it.

Before my current career, I was counsel for the Sun Belt.
There are plenty of people with the vision and expertise to create a new entity from scratch and would be bold about what got borrowed and what got discarded from the NCAA.

The problem is virtually none of them have the authority required and trying to do something bold and getting accepted by presidents who mostly have little to no expertise in field are not going to be easy to deal with, you are all but guaranteed to sink into the same abyss you have.

What you need is something of a constitutional convention mindset. You bring the pros and you bring in the faculty athletic reps. Let them debate the big picture and then drill it down until you have a complete document. You send it to the schools to mull over then have a pass/fail vote.

FARs in general will have much more athletic issue experience than presidents (unless your president is a former FAR, like at AState) but are more in tune with the concerns presidents have. They can be tasked to go spend a month in a meeting room in Arizona to work on a project like that when you are lucky if you can get three full days from a president or chancellor.
11-18-2019 10:03 AM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 09:43 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 03:38 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 02:06 AM)Wedge Wrote:  The biggest obstacle is, who's going to do it. Many people with expertise would have to devote a lot of time to building a new organization and doing everything it takes to exit from the NCAA.

The people who would do that all have full-time jobs already. There would have to be ADs and school presidents willing to invest the time on top of the jobs they already have. Not the nuts and bolts of drawing up bylaws and rules or whatever, they can hire consultants and lawyers to do that stuff. It's supervising those people, working to get every school involved to go along, lobbying, persuading, negotiating, dealing with whatever trouble might be caused by schools not joining the new group. That's a lot of extra work on the plate of those folks. Few if any qualified and connected people are volunteering to do that, at least until the relationship with the NCAA deteriorates to the point that those leaders are motivated to do it.

The organizing principle for the NCAA is now moot. That's reason enough.

Player safety in football is not moot, it still plagues football.

If they are getting paid then the players will have a say in it. It's still moot.
11-18-2019 12:21 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 09:44 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 03:41 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  If it were me, I'd hire a Federal judge to be over this new organization. Federal judges know how to act decisively, and get all parties to agree. They also won't put up with any shenanigans either. If a program is going on probation, they are going on probation, and punishment will be according to what the offense was and if there was cooperation or not. As for the other positions, just pick from the conference commissioners and assistant commissioners.

Must be a baseball fan, Mountain Landis was perfect for baseball.

The man's got a point.
11-18-2019 02:05 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
My personal opinion is that it is absolutely time to make a break. The NCAA as an institution is a failure. They can’t seem to figure out how to make rules or enforce them. The enforcement they do dole out is inconsistent and farcical. Big time athletics needs to change with the times. The only thing that the NCAA does seem to be good at is soaking up revenue.


The question is do the P5 so this as a collective whole or do the SEC and Big Ten make the initial move and then admit others into their new club on an institution by institution basis? This would serve to weed out some of the weaker programs.

How big does the new organization need to be sever the head from the NCAA snake without diluting the stakes of its constituent members? Does the Big East need to be let in? And what of the AAC, Boise, BYU? Do any of them get to come?
11-18-2019 02:11 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 02:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely time to make a break. The NCAA as an institution is a failure. They can’t seem to figure out how to make rules or enforce them. The enforcement they do dole out is inconsistent and farcical. Big time athletics needs to change with the times. The only thing that the NCAA does seem to be good at is soaking up revenue.


The question is do the P5 so this as a collective whole or do the SEC and Big Ten make the initial move and then admit others into their new club on an institution by institution basis? This would serve to weed out some of the weaker programs.

How big does the new organization need to be sever the head from the NCAA snake without diluting the stakes of its constituent members? Does the Big East need to be let in? And what of the AAC, Boise, BYU? Do any of them get to come?
They need about 100. Somebody to take losses. And fill in should the privates ever give up the ship. They get 85% of fb revenue now. Can get that in bb even with 100 schools. 150 is possible but then you have fcs level fb programs
(This post was last modified: 11-18-2019 03:15 PM by bullet.)
11-18-2019 03:14 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 03:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 02:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely time to make a break. The NCAA as an institution is a failure. They can’t seem to figure out how to make rules or enforce them. The enforcement they do dole out is inconsistent and farcical. Big time athletics needs to change with the times. The only thing that the NCAA does seem to be good at is soaking up revenue.


The question is do the P5 so this as a collective whole or do the SEC and Big Ten make the initial move and then admit others into their new club on an institution by institution basis? This would serve to weed out some of the weaker programs.

How big does the new organization need to be sever the head from the NCAA snake without diluting the stakes of its constituent members? Does the Big East need to be let in? And what of the AAC, Boise, BYU? Do any of them get to come?
They need about 100. Somebody to take losses. And fill in should the privates ever give up the ship. They get 85% of fb revenue now. Can get that in bb even with 100 schools. 150 is possible but then you have fcs level fb programs

Personally I would be comfortable with between 72-80 football programs for W/L percentages and another 12 to 24 or so basketball only programs. And then the latter number might actually reflect hybrid schools. Duke, Vanderbilt, Northwestern types that may decide to scale it back and play football in a lower division, but would very much like to remain in the upper division for basketball and baseball.
11-18-2019 03:22 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 02:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely time to make a break. The NCAA as an institution is a failure. They can’t seem to figure out how to make rules or enforce them. The enforcement they do dole out is inconsistent and farcical. Big time athletics needs to change with the times. The only thing that the NCAA does seem to be good at is soaking up revenue.


The question is do the P5 so this as a collective whole or do the SEC and Big Ten make the initial move and then admit others into their new club on an institution by institution basis? This would serve to weed out some of the weaker programs.

How big does the new organization need to be sever the head from the NCAA snake without diluting the stakes of its constituent members? Does the Big East need to be let in? And what of the AAC, Boise, BYU? Do any of them get to come?

The problem is "THEY" is the schools.
Autonomy issues, the P5 do their own thing.
Everything else, the weighting used makes the P5 the thumb up or down on any legislation.

If the concern is the money, there is no reason to secede, all you have to do is pretend it's football make your own tournament. I would suggest at least 64 teams because bracket pool tracking drives far more eyeballs than colleges are comfortable thinking about.

Then its simply a matter of do you want all P5 in regardless how pathetic they were in regular season or do you want a sprinkling of old traditional names that aren't elite football programs and if you want some of them do you want some Cinderella candidates to make the opening days interesting?

Not a big deal at all to make the premier college basketball tournament a power school owned and operated event and with that, the NCAA members want the association to do stuff they gotta assess dues sufficient to fund the programs.

Secession is frankly a very unlikely outcome. College presidents tend to consider the whole business of athletics to be grimy and beneath the mission of higher education but a needed evil if you want non-governmental money to build a new performing arts center because the people who pay for stuff like that tend to be happy sports fans or at least that is the belief.

Shrinking the size of the marketplace is a dandy way to get DOJ or an ambitious US Attorney interested as well as the attention of people who'd like a crack at representing Jackson State or Belmont in an anti-trust claim.

Easier to make your own tournament that get messy and icky.
11-18-2019 04:33 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
(11-18-2019 04:33 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-18-2019 02:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My personal opinion is that it is absolutely time to make a break. The NCAA as an institution is a failure. They can’t seem to figure out how to make rules or enforce them. The enforcement they do dole out is inconsistent and farcical. Big time athletics needs to change with the times. The only thing that the NCAA does seem to be good at is soaking up revenue.


The question is do the P5 so this as a collective whole or do the SEC and Big Ten make the initial move and then admit others into their new club on an institution by institution basis? This would serve to weed out some of the weaker programs.

How big does the new organization need to be sever the head from the NCAA snake without diluting the stakes of its constituent members? Does the Big East need to be let in? And what of the AAC, Boise, BYU? Do any of them get to come?

The problem is "THEY" is the schools.
Autonomy issues, the P5 do their own thing.
Everything else, the weighting used makes the P5 the thumb up or down on any legislation.

If the concern is the money, there is no reason to secede, all you have to do is pretend it's football make your own tournament. I would suggest at least 64 teams because bracket pool tracking drives far more eyeballs than colleges are comfortable thinking about.

Then its simply a matter of do you want all P5 in regardless how pathetic they were in regular season or do you want a sprinkling of old traditional names that aren't elite football programs and if you want some of them do you want some Cinderella candidates to make the opening days interesting?

Not a big deal at all to make the premier college basketball tournament a power school owned and operated event and with that, the NCAA members want the association to do stuff they gotta assess dues sufficient to fund the programs.

Secession is frankly a very unlikely outcome. College presidents tend to consider the whole business of athletics to be grimy and beneath the mission of higher education but a needed evil if you want non-governmental money to build a new performing arts center because the people who pay for stuff like that tend to be happy sports fans or at least that is the belief.

Shrinking the size of the marketplace is a dandy way to get DOJ or an ambitious US Attorney interested as well as the attention of people who'd like a crack at representing Jackson State or Belmont in an anti-trust claim.

Easier to make your own tournament that get messy and icky.

What you refuse to see here is that the bolded part is precisely why we need a breakaway. The fundamental nature of the relationship between the athletes and the school have changed. The best way to handle this is to form a sperate governing structure for revenue sports (think Football, Men's basketball, Baseball, Women's Softball, and Hockey). That way all of those would be governed and managed by a separate entity apart from the non revenue sports which could remain under the direct oversight of the schools and through the NCAA.

The semi-professional and quasi-student relationship sports would be handled by the Athletic Department operating, as they are widely set up already, as an entity apart from the operations of the educational side of the school, but with a part of their department that handles non profits set up more directly under the school's academic side.

This would not interfere with a portion of the proceeds from the revenue sports funding the non revenues and meeting Title IX and therein lies your compromise.

The governing structure of the Revenue sports would then consist of an independent compliance/enforcement agency paid by the for profit sports side of the schools by fee, and by the IRS. Outside of that the scheduling would be handled by the AD's of the schools in the that pay for play upper tier.

Whether there is more realignment would depend solely on the structure that this new upper tier agrees upon.

We have in fact reached a bifurcation of purpose and the new structure should reflect that both legally and structure.
11-18-2019 05:15 PM
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RE: Is it time for the P5 to leave the NCAA?
It sounds like there are two different ideas of what secession looks like:

48-64 football programs that play football by their own set of rules outside of NCAA guidance but stay NCAA and follow NCAA rules for all other sports

100ish Football and serious basketball schools that break with the NCAA entirely for all sports
11-18-2019 06:01 PM
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