(11-12-2019 10:00 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:52 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:41 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  For completeness...

The money that Penny paid the Wiseman's while its intent was not to recruit Wiseman to the University of Memphis.

That money did help Penny get Wiseman to attend the University of Memphis

You cant play 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon with a statute. Its either in the bylaws, or it isnt.

Also, there was nothing hidden about this payment. Due to the same payment, the TSSAA ruled Wiseman ineligible to play at East, Wiseman and Penny fought back (and had the same Judge in Kyle) and the TSSAA simply let it go. There was a court case on this already. Its not like anyone could have hid this if they wanted to.

The statue says a booster cannot give anything of value to a player...Intent is not included.

There are other rules that allowed Penny to give him the money as far as being his coach but I think that is where the NCAA says they made a mistake.

I don't think we can win this case by saying we didn't break a rule. Our case lies in the NCAA not honoring their commitment.

Agree.

(11-12-2019 10:00 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:52 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:41 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  For completeness...

The money that Penny paid the Wiseman's while its intent was not to recruit Wiseman to the University of Memphis.

That money did help Penny get Wiseman to attend the University of Memphis

You cant play 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon with a statute. Its either in the bylaws, or it isnt.

Also, there was nothing hidden about this payment. Due to the same payment, the TSSAA ruled Wiseman ineligible to play at East, Wiseman and Penny fought back (and had the same Judge in Kyle) and the TSSAA simply let it go. There was a court case on this already. Its not like anyone could have hid this if they wanted to.

The statue says a booster cannot give anything of value to a player...Intent is not included.

There are other rules that allowed Penny to give him the money as far as being his coach but I think that is where the NCAA says they made a mistake.

I don't think we can win this case by saying we didn't break a rule. Our case lies in the NCAA not honoring their commitment.

Please listen to the Calkins/Fishman podcast.

F the NCAA.

Then.
Now.
Forever.

Extra Benefits – Pre Existing Relationships

Boosters are prohibited from providing any type of benefit to a current or prospective student-athlete. NCAA Bylaw 12.1.1.1.6 prohibits preferential treatment, benefits or services because of the individual's athletics reputation or skill or pay-back potential as a professional athlete, unless such treatment, benefits or services are specifically permitted under NCAA legislation.

The only exception to this rule is if there is a clear preexisting relationship between the booster and the student-athlete. The NCAA membership services staff reviewed the application of NCAA Bylaw 12.1.1.1.6 as it relates to factual situations in which an individual (student-athlete or prospective student-athlete) has received benefits prior to collegiate enrollment from someone other than a family member or legal guardian, and agreed that the following objective guidelines generally should be used in determining whether such benefits are contrary to the legislation:

Did the relationship between the athlete (or the athlete's parents) and the individual providing the benefit(s) develop as a result of the athlete's participation in athletics or notoriety related thereto?
Did the relationship between the athlete (or the athlete's parents) and the individual providing the benefit(s) predate the athlete's status as a prospective student-athlete?
Did the relationship between the athlete (or the athlete's parents) and the individual providing the benefit(s) predate the athlete's status achieved as a result of his or her athletics ability or reputation?
Was the pattern of benefits provided by the individual to the athlete (or the athlete's parents) prior to the athlete attaining notoriety as a skilled athlete similar in nature to those provided after attaining such stature?
The subcommittee, however, noted that the origin and duration of a relationship and the consistency of benefits provided during the relationship are key factors in determining whether the benefits provided are contrary to the spirit and intent of Bylaw 12.1.1.1.6. The subcommittee determined that prior to initial full-time collegiate enrollment, a prospective student-athlete may receive normal and reasonable living expenses from an individual with whom the student-athlete has an established relationship (e.g., high-school coach, nonscholastic athletics team coach, family of a teammate), even if the relationship developed as a result of athletics participation, provided:

The individual is not an agent,
The individual is not an athletics representative of a particular institution involved in recruiting the prospect, and
Such living expenses are consistent with the types of expenses provided by the individual as a part of normal living arrangements (e.g., housing, meals, occasional spending money, use of the family car).

The one exception whereby a booster may provide benefits to a prospect is through a pre-existing relationship. The rules are outlined above.

James joined Team Penny in May 2017. The payment was made end of June 2017. The question becomes does 1-2 months constitute a pre-existing relationship? I'm inclined to say no, but like a lot of NCAA rules, there are no clear guidelines by which it can be judged so I think an argument could be made here.

Of course you can say a rule was broken. They had all the time in the world to say so and chose to deem him eligible all the way up until the season started so that it was too late to do anything about it. Wiseman, Hardaway, the team, the school and us have every reason to be furious.

Especially since this was an "infraction" that was known and happened years ago.

And, especially since blatant cheating has been proved in court over the past couple of years with no action taken by the NCAA.

I am sure, when looking at the NCAA's entire body of work and by the eyeball test, this was done to ruin our season and keep the University down. The big boys can for see a long successful run by non-P5 Memphis and Hardaway and want to squash it now before the roots take hold and starts to grow.

I hope they settle this with a slap on the wrist and move on.

A real court battle will be fun, and possibly successful, but ultimately will be futile for this season and this team and our program.

(11-12-2019 10:27 AM)Tigers2B1 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:41 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  For completeness...

The money that Penny paid the Wiseman's while its intent was not to recruit Wiseman to the University of Memphis.

That money did help Penny get Wiseman to attend the University of Memphis

although you phrase that last part as a conclusion I think I would describe that as more of an assumption. Wiseman could have signed with Memphis without his mother moving here. His sister was already enrolled at Memphis without their mother here. Why not the assumption that she simply wanted to be near her children... And Penny provided the means to enable that.

I didn't say that Wiseman wouldn't have still committed to Memphis. I said Wiseman playing for Penny at East definitely helped Penny land Wiseman at Memphis.

If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

if penny only gave 11.5k to wisemans mother, that would be an tssaa infraction (i believe). it has nothing to do with the ncaa. The fact that penny once donated 1mill to the u of M, makes him a donor indefinitely, per NCAA by laws. that is an unspecified length of time. Some say until told otherwise, some say unknown. penny was considered a booster by the NCAA from 2008 and on. When he gave the wiseman's money, he committed the impermissible benefit, despite not doing it to lure James to Memphis. he still did it and thats an issue.

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

Honestly,

I think Wiseman would still be ineligible...Anywhere.

I think what the NCAA has done here in order to correct their previous mistake they brought up something they feel was incorrect on the initial paperwork, Pennies Booster status, in order to reopen the case and fix their mistake.

(11-12-2019 08:52 AM)CUSA_NEWS Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 08:28 AM)Hoots Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 08:26 AM)Fluke Wrote:  Also something people haven’t mentioned. If penny knew he would be getting the job why the hell would Lomax commit to Wichita when he did? Obviously they didn’t.

Good point.

Which strengthens their case.

Also this:

Link

Quote:Okay, say in 2008 that Penny was a booster, and nine years later he is still a booster. Unless it is a recruiting violation, it doesn’t matter that he gave Wiseman’s family money in 2017. The booster has to violate a NCAA rule.

Quote:So, did Penny engage in illegal recruiting by giving the money? In my opinion, no way, no how. He never recruited James in 2017 to attend Memphis. He wasn’t the coach at Memphis. He was coaching high school basketball! And even if that had violated high school athletic association rules—I’m not aware that it did—that doesn’t violate NCAA rules.

Basically NCAA has no jurisdiction. Penny may have recruited James to East with the payment but that's not a NCAA rule (recruiting players to a high school). NCAA rule states recruit to a particular college.

You can bet Leslie Ballin will be pointing this out on the 18th.

(11-12-2019 12:09 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

Honestly,

I think Wiseman would still be ineligible...Anywhere.

I think what the NCAA has done here in order to correct their previous mistake they brought up something they feel was incorrect on the initial paperwork, Pennies Booster status, in order to reopen the case and fix their mistake.

But the timing of the thing is the issue. You can't clear him to play at Memphis back in May with the same information that you have now and then decide when the season starts when he has no options to go to another school to make him ineligible. I mean you can if you are the NCAA because they pull this crap all the time and they have absolutely no consistency in any ruling. About time someone stood up to them.

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

Cal donated topp Kentucky, Memphis, UMass....

Does Cal's donation make him a booster? Penny's donation to the Hall of Fame is in line with Cal's donation to help alumni of the school's he chose...

We ALL know Coach Penny did not know he would be the HC of Memphis when he gave the money to the Wisemans.

EVEN if Penny did know, then he had to work with the college to get Coach Smith fired. Even then, Coach Penny didn't take over the program it was after the regular recruiting season. Coach Penny had to find a way to get Alo and Harris to join. He had to get them to transfer.

Coach Penny had to recruit Wiseman and the others in the #1 Recruiting Class the next year. Then, NCAA ALREADY said that it was OK, and decided to do a 180 this week.

Dang, Coach Penny!!!!!... YOU are a GENIUS!!!!... To plan this far ahead to finally recruit Wiseman. You had to have been planning this for at least FOUR YEARSSSS!!! SMH LOL

OK!! Seriously, Coach Penny could NOT have spent a LOT of time to plan FOUR YEARS in advanced on how to recruit ONE PERSON!!!

NCAA has VERY WEAK arguments.

(11-12-2019 12:28 PM)mairving Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 12:09 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

Honestly,

I think Wiseman would still be ineligible...Anywhere.

I think what the NCAA has done here in order to correct their previous mistake they brought up something they feel was incorrect on the initial paperwork, Pennies Booster status, in order to reopen the case and fix their mistake.

But the timing of the thing is the issue. You can't clear him to play at Memphis back in May with the same information that you have now and then decide when the season starts when he has no options to go to another school to make him ineligible. I mean you can if you are the NCAA because they pull this crap all the time and they have absolutely no consistency in any ruling. About time someone stood up to them.

I think this is where our strongest argument lies...

The timing of the whole deal. No way this is new information, they just decided to do this when it would be too late to reverse.

(11-12-2019 12:49 PM)CUSA_NEWS Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 11:22 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  If the HS coach gave Wiseman’s family $11,500 to move the Memphis but didn’t give $1M donation to help build a sports hall of fame, would Wiseman be ineligible?

Answer seems to be no

So what does donating to help build a sports hall of fame 11 years earlierhave anything to do with the intent of the NCAA booster laws which is to prevent representatives of a school conducting illicit activities to steer a recruit to that school?

Answer

Cal donated topp Kentucky, Memphis, UMass....

Does Cal's donation make him a booster? Penny's donation to the Hall of Fame is in line with Cal's donation to help alumni of the school's he chose...

Of course Cal is a booster.

And if he retired and helped some high level basketball player with money the player would have a very hard time going to any of the schools he is a booster of if it became known.

And obviously he cant help any player while he is still coaching.

(11-12-2019 10:37 AM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 10:11 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 10:09 AM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  I don't think he was ruled ineligible at East due to the payment. I don't think that was known at the time. They were arguing the prior coaching link angle due to Wiseman playing on Team Penny.

I thought it was all about the $11,500 payment to help them move from Nashville to Memphis.

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...878572001/

Missed where you were talking about East High School, I thought you were referring to his issue at Memphis today.

(11-12-2019 09:58 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:50 AM)thagr82008 Wrote:  

(11-12-2019 09:41 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  For completeness...

The money that Penny paid the Wiseman's while its intent was not to recruit Wiseman to the University of Memphis.

That money did help Penny get Wiseman to attend the University of Memphis

How did the stipend to his mom in 2017 get Wiseman to attend UofM in 2019......

You don't think Wiseman playing for Penny in High School helped Penny get him to the UofM

If anything Wiseman's play and success at east got Penny to U of M not the other way around.