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Bowl Games and back fills
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TardisCaptain Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-11-2019 01:10 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Mountain West

Not discussing APR 7-loss opportunities.

Bowl ineligible: New Mexico, UNLV
Bowl eligible: Boise St, Air Force, Wyoming, San Diego St, Hawaii, Nevada

5 wins: Utah St
4 wins: Colorado St, Fresno St, San Jose St

Utah St: 2 homes games (Wyoming, Boise St) left - must win 1
Colorado St: 2 homes games (Air Force, Boise St) and 1 away game (Wyoming) left - must win 2
Fresno St: 1 home game (Nevada) and 2 away games (San Diego St, San Jose St) left - must win 2
San Jose St: 1 home game (Fresno St) and 1 away game (UNLV) left - must win 1

I anticipate only San Jose St reaches 6 wins out of the above but Utah St definitely could. I think Colorado St and Fresno St will be left out this season.

We have 6 official bowl tie-ins and 2 secondary tie-ins. As of right now, I don't expect Boise St to get the NY6 Cotton Bowl bid. I slot as follows:
Las Vegas Bowl: Boise St
Hawaii Bowl: Hawaii
New Mexico Bowl: Air Force
Famous Idaho Potato Bowl: Wyoming
Arizona Bowl: Nevada
Frisco Bowl: San Diego St

San Jose St and Utah St to fill in where space is available.

Besides the two games listed, Utah State travels to New Mexico on November 30th. That should be a win for them. But I'm certain that the Aggies would like to be higher than 6-6 if they can.
11-12-2019 03:46 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


Actually, the viewership is down with 7-5 or 6-6 P5 schools against a 10-2 G5 schools. They need to look at the Boise State vs TCU games. The champs of MWC vs the WAC champs is a good example of better viewership. More eyeballs = more money from advertisers = more money ESPN could shell out for the top 2 G5 conferences. People might like to see the MWC champ take on the AAC champ at a NY6 bowl. Boise State could bring the viewership.
11-12-2019 04:35 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 04:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


Actually, the viewership is down with 7-5 or 6-6 P5 schools against a 10-2 G5 schools. They need to look at the Boise State vs TCU games. The champs of MWC vs the WAC champs is a good example of better viewership. More eyeballs = more money from advertisers = more money ESPN could shell out for the top 2 G5 conferences. People might like to see the MWC champ take on the AAC champ at a NY6 bowl. Boise State could bring the viewership.

Down compared to what? And the WAC doesn't have football lol.
11-12-2019 05:13 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.

I think you're referring to 1994 --- a 6-4-1 Notre Dame played in the Fiesta Bowl that year.

The funny thing is --- 1994 was part of the Bowl Coalition era!!! The Coalition guaranteed ND a pretty good Bowl slot, regardless of whether they were actually any good or not. So #4 Colorado (10-1 and a legit very good team) got to beat up mediocre ND in the Fiesta Bowl. What fun.
11-12-2019 11:40 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 05:13 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 04:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


Actually, the viewership is down with 7-5 or 6-6 P5 schools against a 10-2 G5 schools. They need to look at the Boise State vs TCU games. The champs of MWC vs the WAC champs is a good example of better viewership. More eyeballs = more money from advertisers = more money ESPN could shell out for the top 2 G5 conferences. People might like to see the MWC champ take on the AAC champ at a NY6 bowl. Boise State could bring the viewership.

Down compared to what? And the WAC doesn't have football lol.

I was talking about when TCU was in MWC and the WAC still had football.
11-13-2019 12:53 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-13-2019 12:53 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 05:13 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 04:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


Actually, the viewership is down with 7-5 or 6-6 P5 schools against a 10-2 G5 schools. They need to look at the Boise State vs TCU games. The champs of MWC vs the WAC champs is a good example of better viewership. More eyeballs = more money from advertisers = more money ESPN could shell out for the top 2 G5 conferences. People might like to see the MWC champ take on the AAC champ at a NY6 bowl. Boise State could bring the viewership.

Down compared to what? And the WAC doesn't have football lol.

I was talking about when TCU was in MWC and the WAC still had football.
Then post a link on TV bowl ratings from those games compared to recent bowl games.
11-13-2019 06:26 AM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #27
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


This

People don't remember how awful the whole thing was. You'd get a big name locked into a high level game and their star RB would tear his knee up and they'd lose ugly to complete the year and all the excitement was gone.

I still think the ACC/Sun Belt CFP alternative was the best.

1-4 go to playoff just like now.
5-24 would go to the 10 biggest bowls not in the playoff.

The selection committee would fill the Elite 10 bowls in addition to the playoff field.

The committee would be charged with filing the Elite 10 as follows
1. Highest rated Big 10 and Pac-12 would go to Rose (except when Rose hosted semifinals),
2. Highest rated SEC and Big XII would go Sugar (except when Sugar hosted semifinals).
3. Highest rated ACC would go Orange (except when hosting semifinals).
4. The committee would then fill out the Elite 10 bowls from the remaining teams rated 5-24 and would be charged with maintaining traditional pairings, looking to geography and considering the rating of each team in making the pairings.

Once 1-24 are taken care of and we are assured all top 24 teams have a top 24 opponent, how much concern is there really over whether the #3 team from AAC faces MWC #2 or SEC #9 from anyone not in one of the fan bases of the involved schools?

No one else really cares whether ACC #7 vs Big 10 #8 meet or not, they just want to order a pizza or some wings and kick back in the recliner and watch a good game.
11-13-2019 11:43 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-13-2019 11:43 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.


This

People don't remember how awful the whole thing was. You'd get a big name locked into a high level game and their star RB would tear his knee up and they'd lose ugly to complete the year and all the excitement was gone.

I still think the ACC/Sun Belt CFP alternative was the best.

1-4 go to playoff just like now.
5-24 would go to the 10 biggest bowls not in the playoff.

The selection committee would fill the Elite 10 bowls in addition to the playoff field.

The committee would be charged with filing the Elite 10 as follows
1. Highest rated Big 10 and Pac-12 would go to Rose (except when Rose hosted semifinals),
2. Highest rated SEC and Big XII would go Sugar (except when Sugar hosted semifinals).
3. Highest rated ACC would go Orange (except when hosting semifinals).
4. The committee would then fill out the Elite 10 bowls from the remaining teams rated 5-24 and would be charged with maintaining traditional pairings, looking to geography and considering the rating of each team in making the pairings.

Once 1-24 are taken care of and we are assured all top 24 teams have a top 24 opponent, how much concern is there really over whether the #3 team from AAC faces MWC #2 or SEC #9 from anyone not in one of the fan bases of the involved schools?

No one else really cares whether ACC #7 vs Big 10 #8 meet or not, they just want to order a pizza or some wings and kick back in the recliner and watch a good game.

Except there are probably more fans that would actually attend and watch on TV matchups like unranked Tennessee v. unranked Iowa State or unranked Michigan State v. unranked USC compared to #21 Appalachian State v. #24 SMU.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2019 12:59 PM by YNot.)
11-13-2019 12:58 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
I think the name of the bowl matters to the average viewer more than people realize. The Gator Bowl is going to attract more fans than the GoDaddy Bowl. Some of these bowls are realizing that, and going back to a traditional name with a "brought to by" or sponsor in front of it.

Sure, when it's the Redbox Bowl vs the Bad Boy Mowers Bowl, the average fan is going to flip to the game that features the teams with a name, but the actual bowl names carry weight, and I'm glad these morons are realizing it: Citrus, Gator, Peach (although that was mandated). Give us something we can latch on to years later when that sponsor has gone the way of the dodo. I'm looking at you, Blockbuster and MPC Computers.

The 30th annual Camping World Bowl my ***.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2019 10:21 PM by esayem.)
11-13-2019 10:17 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-13-2019 10:17 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think the name of the bowl matters to the average viewer more than people realize. The Gator Bowl is going to attract more fans than the GoDaddy Bowl. Some of these bowls are realizing that, and going back to a traditional name with a "brought to by" or sponsor in front of it.

Sure, when it's the Redbox Bowl vs the Bad Boy Mowers Bowl, the average fan is going to flip to the game that features the teams with a name, but the actual bowl names carry weight, and I'm glad these morons are realizing it: Citrus, Gator, Peach (although that was mandated). Give us something we can latch on to years later when that sponsor has gone the way of the dodo. I'm looking at you, Blockbuster and MPC Computers.

The 30th annual Camping World Bowl my ***.

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11-14-2019 08:33 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 11:40 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.

I think you're referring to 1994 --- a 6-4-1 Notre Dame played in the Fiesta Bowl that year.

The funny thing is --- 1994 was part of the Bowl Coalition era!!! The Coalition guaranteed ND a pretty good Bowl slot, regardless of whether they were actually any good or not. So #4 Colorado (10-1 and a legit very good team) got to beat up mediocre ND in the Fiesta Bowl. What fun.

The thing about 1994 was, Colorado was going to face a mediocre team anyway. Because of the rules of the Bowl Coalition, the Fiesta Bowl had to choose among #17 Virginia Tech (8-3) or Notre Dame (unranked, 6-4-1).

And while VT was probably a better choice, it wasn't a slam dunk. ND had played a harder schedule. ND's losses were to #4 FSU, #12 Michigan, #22 BYU, and a Boston College team that finished unranked but went 8-4 and won the Hawaii Bowl. The tie was against #13 USC. Four of those games were on the road, only the BYU loss came at home. These are all final AP poll rankings, btw.

VT had decent losses too, to #6 Miami and to #15 Virginia and unranked Syracuse, winning teams, but those were the only good teams they had played.

So neither was very good. Should the Fiesta have picked VT? Probably, but then in addition to a mediocre opponent for Colorado you would get mediocre TV ratings.

In the end, VT lost to a 7-4 Tennessee team in the Gator Bowl by a worse margin than ND did to Colorado in the Fiesta Bowl.
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2019 10:40 AM by quo vadis.)
11-14-2019 10:37 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-12-2019 12:52 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 07:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  Another example of why tying every bowl to conferences is worse for good teams and can hurt TV. I understand some of historic bowl ties: Rose, Sugar, even Cotton to the Big XII Texas teams. The New Orleans Bowl would be better than some lame SEC 6 vs Big Ten 5, where they earn more money.

The rest of the bowls should bid against one another like the olden days. Have them send reps to see teams, recruit the best matchups, throw down straight cash, homie!

No, that was definitely not a better way to do it, if you care about getting good teams with good records into the better bowl games.

Back in the day the bowl games locked up teams halfway through the season, to ensure they got a "name" team, regardless of their final record. A bowl might have made a deal early on with both Nebraska and Oklahoma to get whichever team didn't win the Big 8, or with Michigan and Ohio State to get whichever didn't win the Big Ten that year. IIRC there was one year the Fiesta Bowl signed Notre Dame when they were 4-1 and they finished the regular season 6-4-1. Didn't matter if there was a rule stating that bowls couldn't officially sign teams before November 15; they just made deals in secret well before that date.

You know, for all the bad talk that 1994 Fiesta Bowl gets, the Bowl Coalition actually did a decent job of putting together an attractive package of top bowls. The Rose Bowl had the PAC champ vs the Big 10 champ; the Sugar Bowl had the SEC champ vs the ACC champ; the Orange Bowl gave us the Big East champ vs the Big 8 champ.

The only bowls that suffered were the Cotton and the Fiesta. The Cotton was supposed to have the SWC champ, but undefeated Texas AM was on probation so it got stuck with a lousy Texas Tech team to face PAC #2 USC. And then the Fiesta had Big 8 #2 Colorado vs a bad ND team. But I remember watching the bowls that year, it was a fun year.
11-14-2019 11:54 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-13-2019 10:17 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think the name of the bowl matters to the average viewer more than people realize. The Gator Bowl is going to attract more fans than the GoDaddy Bowl. Some of these bowls are realizing that, and going back to a traditional name with a "brought to by" or sponsor in front of it.

You're exactly right. Shakespeare may have said "A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet", but I don't think anyone doubts that if it was renamed The Microsoft Bowl" that ratings would take a big hit. The "Rose Bowl" name has a lot of brand value in and of itself, independent of who is playing in it.

And yes, after years of their being a tendency to rename bowls for the sponsors, like the GoDaddy Bowl, the trend has reversed and the Gator is a good example.

Basically, if a bowl is new without an established name, like the Miami Beach Bowl or the St Petersburg Bowl, you might as well name them the Cheribundy Tart Cherry or the Popeye's Bowl, because the original name had no brand value to lose.

But for older bowls that have established names, like the Liberty Bowl or the Sun Bowl or the Gator Bowl, it makes much more sense to do a "presented by ... " type thing and keep the legacy name in the title, because that name does have brand value.
11-14-2019 12:00 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-14-2019 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The thing about 1994 was, Colorado was going to face a mediocre team anyway. Because of the rules of the Bowl Coalition, the Fiesta Bowl had to choose among #17 Virginia Tech (8-3) or Notre Dame (unranked, 6-4-1).

That's interesting, and thanks for the information.

I was pretty young then and didn't know all the ins-and-outs of the Coalition, but why couldn't the Fiesta Bowl have taken either 8-3 Texas or 7-3-1 USC to face Colorado? Why were they limited to ND or Virginia Tech? Were they simply at the "back of the line" despite already having Colorado (who at #4 would seemingly be a "front of the line" type pick)?
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2019 03:37 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
11-14-2019 03:37 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-14-2019 03:37 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(11-14-2019 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The thing about 1994 was, Colorado was going to face a mediocre team anyway. Because of the rules of the Bowl Coalition, the Fiesta Bowl had to choose among #17 Virginia Tech (8-3) or Notre Dame (unranked, 6-4-1).

That's interesting, and thanks for the information.

I was pretty young then and didn't know all the ins-and-outs of the Coalition, but why couldn't the Fiesta Bowl have taken either 8-3 Texas or 7-3-1 USC to face Colorado? Why were they limited to ND or Virginia Tech? Were they simply at the "back of the line" despite already having Colorado (who at #4 would seemingly be a "front of the line" type pick)?

Prediction for PSU, Outback, Citrus? Assuming PSU loses at OSU.
11-14-2019 03:51 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-14-2019 03:37 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(11-14-2019 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The thing about 1994 was, Colorado was going to face a mediocre team anyway. Because of the rules of the Bowl Coalition, the Fiesta Bowl had to choose among #17 Virginia Tech (8-3) or Notre Dame (unranked, 6-4-1).

That's interesting, and thanks for the information.

I was pretty young then and didn't know all the ins-and-outs of the Coalition, but why couldn't the Fiesta Bowl have taken either 8-3 Texas or 7-3-1 USC to face Colorado? Why were they limited to ND or Virginia Tech? Were they simply at the "back of the line" despite already having Colorado (who at #4 would seemingly be a "front of the line" type pick)?

It was because the BC rules actually favored conference standings over overall record. The rule was, a Tier I Bowl Coalition Bowl - the Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, and Cotton - had to select either (1) a Bowl Coalition conference champion (all champions were guaranteed a spot) or (2) a BC conference runner-up, or (3) Notre Dame. There was an exception for the SEC - because the SEC #2 was contracted to the Citrus Bowl, the SEC #3 was eligible to be picked by a Tier I bowl as well. And there was a selection process, kind of like in the BCS era.

Note that even though the Rose Bowl was not part of the Bowl Coalition, the PAC was a quasi-member, such that their runner-up was eligible to be selected by the Tier I bowls, even though their champ was committed to the Rose Bowl. The Big 10 was not a member at all, and its teams could not play in the BC bowls, which included the four big Tier one bowls, plus the three Tier II bowls - the Sun Bowl, the Gator Bowl, and the Blockbuster Bowl. To complicate things further, the Blockbuster Bowl could save one spot for a truly "at-large" team, a team not designated by the BC rules, BUT again not including the Big 10! That's how independent Penn State played in the 1992 Blockbuster Bowl. To complicate it even further, the Blockbuster was only part of the Bowl Coalition one year, 1992. I do not know why it was dropped or withdrew after that.

Anyway, in this 1994 case, the Cotton Bowl got to pick before the Fiesta Bowl, and they selected PAC #2 USC, so USC was not available.

Texas was not available to the Fiesta either, because of the cluster-frack SWC situation that year. Texas AM won the conference and was undefeated (they did have a tie), but they were ineligible for a bowl because of NCAA sanctions. After them, four teams, Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, and Baylor were all tied with a 4-3 conference record. By some arcane formula, the SWC determined that Texas Tech was the #2 team, and since the SWC was traditionally tied to the Cotton Bowl, they played USC in the Cotton Bowl. This was because another BC rule was that the Orange, Cotton, and Sugar Bowls retained their traditional ties to the Big 8, SWC, and SEC respectively. Champs of those conferences played in those bowls, unless a #1 vs #2 matchup could be created by releasing them from those ties. **

But again back to our case, that meant Texas was not eligible for the Fiesta Bowl, because they were not the #1 or #2 team in the SWC. Even though TAMU could not go to a bowl, they were still regarded as the SWC champ and thus the #1 SWC team.

Virginia Tech was available because they were the Big East #2, after champ Miami. Also, I made one mistake in the last post - the Fiesta also could have taken #23 NC State, 8-3, as the ACC runner-up to champ FSU. They chose Notre Dame over both.

** In the three years of the Bowl Coalition, 1992 - 1994, no release of Tier I traditional tie was ever necessary. In 1992, a #1 vs #2 matchup between Miami and Alabama was accomplished by putting Big East champ Miami, not tied to any bowl, into the Sugar Bowl vs SEC champ Alabama. In 1993, a #1 vs #2 matchup was achieved by putting ACC champ #2 FSU, not tied to any bowl, into the Orange Bowl vs #2 Big 8 champ Nebraska. And in 1994, no #1 vs #2 matchup was possible, because #2 Big 10 champ Penn State was committed to the Rose Bowl while #1 Nebraska was in the Orange Bowl.
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2019 06:38 PM by quo vadis.)
11-14-2019 06:03 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-14-2019 06:03 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It was because the BC rules actually favored conference standings over overall record. The rule was, a Tier I Bowl Coalition Bowl - the Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, and Cotton - had to select either (1) a Bowl Coalition conference champion (all champions were guaranteed a spot) or (2) a BC conference runner-up, or (3) Notre Dame. There was an exception for the SEC - because the SEC #2 was contracted to the Citrus Bowl, the SEC #3 was eligible to be picked by a Tier I bowl as well. And there was a selection process, kind of like in the BCS era.

Note that even though the Rose Bowl was not part of the Bowl Coalition, the PAC was a quasi-member, such that their runner-up was eligible to be selected by the Tier I bowls, even though their champ was committed to the Rose Bowl. The Big 10 was not a member at all, and its teams could not play in the BC bowls, which included the four big Tier one bowls, plus the three Tier II bowls - the Sun Bowl, the Gator Bowl, and the Blockbuster Bowl. To complicate things further, the Blockbuster Bowl could save one spot for a truly "at-large" team, a team not designated by the BC rules, BUT again not including the Big 10! That's how independent Penn State played in the 1992 Blockbuster Bowl. To complicate it even further, the Blockbuster was only part of the Bowl Coalition one year, 1992. I do not know why it was dropped or withdrew after that.

Anyway, in this 1994 case, the Cotton Bowl got to pick before the Fiesta Bowl, and they selected PAC #2 USC, so USC was not available.

Texas was not available to the Fiesta either, because of the cluster-frack SWC situation that year. Texas AM won the conference and was undefeated (they did have a tie), but they were ineligible for a bowl because of NCAA sanctions. After them, four teams, Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, and Baylor were all tied with a 4-3 conference record. By some arcane formula, the SWC determined that Texas Tech was the #2 team, and since the SWC was traditionally tied to the Cotton Bowl, they played USC in the Cotton Bowl. This was because another BC rule was that the Orange, Cotton, and Sugar Bowls retained their traditional ties to the Big 8, SWC, and SEC respectively. Champs of those conferences played in those bowls, unless a #1 vs #2 matchup could be created by releasing them from those ties. **

But again back to our case, that meant Texas was not eligible for the Fiesta Bowl, because they were not the #1 or #2 team in the SWC. Even though TAMU could not go to a bowl, they were still regarded as the SWC champ and thus the #1 SWC team.

Virginia Tech was available because they were the Big East #2, after champ Miami. Also, I made one mistake in the last post - the Fiesta also could have taken #23 NC State, 8-3, as the ACC runner-up to champ FSU. They chose Notre Dame over both.

** In the three years of the Bowl Coalition, 1992 - 1994, no release of Tier I traditional tie was ever necessary. In 1992, a #1 vs #2 matchup between Miami and Alabama was accomplished by putting Big East champ Miami, not tied to any bowl, into the Sugar Bowl vs SEC champ Alabama. In 1993, a #1 vs #2 matchup was achieved by putting ACC champ #2 FSU, not tied to any bowl, into the Orange Bowl vs #2 Big 8 champ Nebraska. And in 1994, no #1 vs #2 matchup was possible, because #2 Big 10 champ Penn State was committed to the Rose Bowl while #1 Nebraska was in the Orange Bowl.

Thanks for the explanation. That is pretty complicated!

When it came to the #1 vs #2 match-ups, the Bowl Alliance did do its job - as well as it could have in a world where the B1G and Pac-10 Champs were still guaranteed Pasadena.
11-15-2019 05:58 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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RE: Bowl Games and back fills
[/quote]

Prediction for PSU, Outback, Citrus? Assuming PSU loses at OSU.
[/quote]

A 10-2 PSU is probably the Orange, Cotton or Outback. Not really the Citrus, given they were there last year.

9-3 PSU - virtual guarantee that is Tampa.

We're in a weird situation where Michigan likely has the profile of a typical Citrus/Outback Bowl team but probably skips both for the Holiday Bowl and San Diego. The B1G is supposedly trying to limit recent-repeat appearances for teams in Bowls. MI has been to both Florida Bowls in the 2015-2017 time frame.

Whether its NYD6 or Tampa at 10-2 depends on how the likes of Florida, Auburn, Georgia, Notre Dame, Oregon, Utah, Oklahoma and Baylor (+ a few others) do down the stretch. Way too many possibilities to fathom quite yet.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2019 06:05 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
11-15-2019 06:01 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Bowl Games and back fills
(11-15-2019 05:58 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  When it came to the #1 vs #2 match-ups, the Bowl Alliance did do its job - as well as it could have in a world where the B1G and Pac-10 Champs were still guaranteed Pasadena.

Yes it did. Then again, the same #1 vs #2 matchups could have happened before the Bowl Coalition as well.

Nevertheless, the BC did produce three years of good bowl games. The focus on the 1994 Fiesta Bowl with a bad Notre Dame team seems to be the only thing many remember, but for the most part the BC gave us good matchups in the major bowls.
11-16-2019 09:08 AM
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f1do Offline
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RE: Bowl Games and back fills
After beating Idaho State for their 6th win this season (6-4), BYU has officially accepted an invitation to the Hawaii Bowl.
11-16-2019 06:12 PM
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