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Play Wiseman No Matter What
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mapdude Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
If CPH is a "booster" he can not recruit period...according to the rules...
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2019 07:55 PM by mapdude.)
11-10-2019 07:55 PM
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snowtiger Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
Welp the definition of booster and the timing of the boost is debatable and subject to interpretation, as many have pointed out.

Can boosters recruit for other teams? If we listen to tubby livers, they insisted Penny reverse-recruited. lol
11-10-2019 08:02 PM
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G-Man Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
The definition of a booster only applies to someone who donates to the university who isn’t also employed by the university. A booster can’t give impermissible benefits. Nor can a coach. If he did anything wrong now, it would be as an employee/coach of Memphis. If he did something wrong prior to becoming coach but after donating money, then it was done as (per the hypocritical NCAA) as a booster.

In other words, he can recruit now as a coach and is held to the standards of an employee and what can/can’t be done in employment as the coach. Nothing he does now as an employee /coach is done as a booster.

In the future after his coaching career is over (hopefully decades from now) he will be a booster once again.
11-10-2019 08:22 PM
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kabluey Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-10-2019 03:48 PM)tkgrrett Wrote:  
(11-10-2019 03:04 PM)kabluey Wrote:  Well, not "no matter what." Carefully calculate possible consequences. Should the death penalty be plausible (I'm not saying it is), I wouldn't think that would be a bridge we are willing to cross to play Wiseman. But almost everything else should be acceptable in order to show recruits we will support and showcase them.

Its more than Wiseman at stake.. if the "booster" ruling is upheld then Level I violations against Penny and the university are probably nexy no matter what we do.

I agree, that's why I ended referencing recruits and sending them a message.
11-11-2019 10:25 AM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.

agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Fishman said yesterday that if Chase Young's one-third season punishment were issued in basketball, that would be 9-10 games. Then he said, "That's a lot." Might give you a clue as to their mindset.
11-12-2019 02:44 PM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 09:20 PM)blue68 Wrote:  Let the team suffer for one. Great logic.

I think your idea of "team" might be different from others.
11-12-2019 02:46 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.
11-12-2019 02:50 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 10:30 PM)roundhouse74 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:20 PM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:58 PM)roundhouse74 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:42 PM)AlonsoWDC Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:15 PM)roundhouse74 Wrote:  Yes thanks to that effort, Texas Western now has a thriving athletic program and UK is relegated to the dustbin of history. (in my dreams) Life's not fair, or, at least the NCAA part of it isn't.

You REALLY missed the point here.

I mean GOOD LORD. That game wasn't about Texas Western v. Kentucky as much as it was about, umm, something else entirely.

I suggest you take a lap and hit the showers and reflect on your wrongness.

No, I know exactly what your point was, but you missed mine. The school that bucked the system basically accomplished nothing for itself and the blue-blood that was playing all white players is a powerhouse basketball program - still. Texas Western won the battle, but they lost the war.

Wow. I guess if your only measure of success is wins/losses on the court.

I don't care to explain this again. I'm sorry I overestimated some people's intelligence.

Your point is stupid. Duquesne, CCNY, Dartmouth, NYU, Holy Cross, Santa Clara, San Francisco, Lasalle, St. Bonaventure, Seattle, Princeton and Drake all made it to the Final Four at one point. They all have the same thing in common with Texas Western. They became mediocre, irrelevant or disappeared for reasons completely unrelated to a battle with the NCAA.

Texas Western didn't lose the war, they won it, and they won it for everyone; the same as we will win it for everyone. Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between what Texas Western became and what we will become?

That would be beyond stupid.
11-12-2019 03:04 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 11:42 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:32 PM)thagr82008 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.

agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Because of "punitive damages" this is no Bueno! Exact reason for the TRO altogether.....Because of Wises "earning potential" missing ANY games is NOT acceptable..... 05-nono

But he can quit the team at any time and play overseas until drafted. He's not earning anything right now (hopefully). The truth is he could sit or quit, and his earning potential isn't going to be harmed one iota.

He's going to be the number one pick in the draft regardless of where he is, and whether he sits or plays right now, it doesn't cost him any money.

You could even argue (like people did after Zion Williamson hurt his foot last year) that anyone who plays college ball is risking causing damage to their future earning potential via becoming injured prior to realizing any earnings.

I don't buy this "loss of earnings potential" as an argument that holds up. Would be great if it did. But I don't see it.

You think packing up and leaving to play in Australia won't hurt him? He will lose massive amounts of exposure and the odds of him getting the same endorsement and shoe deals by leaving are at about zero.

Thank God, your complete lack of understanding of the concept of loss of earnings potential isn't shared by anyone else.
11-12-2019 03:08 PM
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Joe1 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-12-2019 02:44 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.

agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Fishman said yesterday that if Chase Young's one-third season punishment were issued in basketball, that would be 9-10 games. Then he said, "That's a lot." Might give you a clue as to their mindset.

I don’t see Penny, Wiseman, Ballin, Fishman, Rudd would agree to settle for a 9 game suspension. Too many. Way too many in my opinion.
11-12-2019 03:08 PM
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TigerEye Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-12-2019 03:08 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 02:44 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.

agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Fishman said yesterday that if Chase Young's one-third season punishment were issued in basketball, that would be 9-10 games. Then he said, "That's a lot." Might give you a clue as to their mindset.

I don’t see Penny, Wiseman, Ballin, Fishman, Rudd would agree to settle for a 9 game suspension. Too many. Way too many in my opinion.

That said, if that's the best we can get without vacating our entire season, so be it.
11-12-2019 03:10 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-10-2019 12:23 AM)G-Man Wrote:  
(11-10-2019 12:02 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 11:42 PM)G-Man Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:32 PM)thagr82008 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Because of "punitive damages" this is no Bueno! Exact reason for the TRO altogether.....Because of Wises "earning potential" missing ANY games is NOT acceptable..... 05-nono

But he can quit the team at any time and play overseas until drafted. He's not earning anything right now (hopefully). The truth is he could sit or quit, and his earning potential isn't going to be harmed one iota.

He's going to be the number one pick in the draft regardless of where he is, and whether he sits or plays right now, it doesn't cost him any money.

You could even argue (like people did after Zion Williamson hurt his foot last year) that anyone who plays college ball is risking causing damage to their future earning potential via becoming injured prior to realizing any earnings.

I don't buy this "loss of earnings potential" as an argument that holds up. Would be great if it did. But I don't see it.

I've thought about that, too. I suppose with Wiseman you can argue that not being allowed to play, and now not being able to transfer, due to erroneous info from the NCAA. A good attorney could argue that his earnings potential is damaged by not being showcased throughout the year, before the draft.

And even if he still goes first in the draft, one could argue that his earnings potential for endorsements is damaged by having his name dragged through the mud by the NCAA.

But the NCAA isn’t saying anything negative about Wiseman. He’s not getting his name dragged through the mud. They’re saying Penny violates rules. It’s impermissible benefits. We all know how hypocritical the NCAA is, but they get to choose to enforce the rules for or against the member institutions who are part of it.

But again, regarding a loss of earnings potential, it’s all hypothetical.

Heaven forbid if he sustains a serious injury after the NCAA says he’s ineligible after the TRO is lifted— and if Memphis still plays him.

What are the odds of that? I don’t know but I’m sure they’re greater than him losing any future NBA earnings potential for not playing due to the NCAA saying it is now trying to correct a bogus ruling it gave.

Bottom line is this whole thing sucks. And there are no good options for making it not suck!

Your comment about the possibility of getting injured is nonsensical. Other leagues in other countries have guaranteed no injury rules in place?
11-12-2019 03:11 PM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
I will be interested to hear the broadcasters tonight. Last week they were very supportive of Wiseman. They scoffed and ridiculed the NCAA.

But they didn't have a lot of prep time - for lawyers and Disney to get involved.

Now that it's been a few days, it will be VERY INTERESTING to hear their approach. It could be a big sign as far as how this plays out in the court of public opinion.

I believe we have Bilas on the mic, and he's a supporter of players' rights. And he was supportive of Wiseman/Memphis on the radio yesterday.
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2019 03:13 PM by Tiger87.)
11-12-2019 03:12 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-10-2019 07:55 PM)mapdude Wrote:  If CPH is a "booster" he can not recruit period...according to the rules...

Exactly. He wasn't recruiting. Great example.
11-12-2019 03:12 PM
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Tiger87 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-12-2019 03:10 PM)TigerEye Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 03:08 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 02:44 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:03 PM)450bench Wrote:  At the end of the day, I'd not be shocked if Wiseman's mom is directed to pay the money back, in full and immediately. Bank of Bartlett will loan her the money and it'll be done. Maybe Wiseman gets suspended for 2 games and the story goes away.

I don't think the NCAA wants to be drug through the mud and exposed to some degree,and they settle.

agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Fishman said yesterday that if Chase Young's one-third season punishment were issued in basketball, that would be 9-10 games. Then he said, "That's a lot." Might give you a clue as to their mindset.

I don’t see Penny, Wiseman, Ballin, Fishman, Rudd would agree to settle for a 9 game suspension. Too many. Way too many in my opinion.

That said, if that's the best we can get without vacating our entire season, so be it.

The choice wouldn't be accept 9 games, or vacate the season. The choice would be accept 9 games, or go to court.
11-12-2019 03:14 PM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-10-2019 08:02 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  Welp the definition of booster and the timing of the boost is debatable and subject to interpretation, as many have pointed out.

Can boosters recruit for other teams? If we listen to tubby livers, they insisted Penny reverse-recruited. lol

Lomax - Wichita State
Boyce - UAB
Jeffries - Kentucky
Wiseman - Anywhere but Memphis

Obviously, anyone can argue successfully that when Penny gave aid to Wiseman, he wasn't a booster for the University of Memphis; he was steering players away from Memphis.

So arguably, Penny was still a booster, but if you look at what the NCAA describes as a booster, all of the sanctionable activities involve giving an unfair advantage to the school that the booster is affiliated with. The entire definition is written this way.

NCAA Role Of Boosters
11-12-2019 03:24 PM
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cmt Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-12-2019 03:14 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 03:10 PM)TigerEye Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 03:08 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  
(11-12-2019 02:44 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 10:14 PM)BandwagonJumper Wrote:  agree on everything but the length of penalty

i think it will be closer to 10-15 games

Fishman said yesterday that if Chase Young's one-third season punishment were issued in basketball, that would be 9-10 games. Then he said, "That's a lot." Might give you a clue as to their mindset.

I don’t see Penny, Wiseman, Ballin, Fishman, Rudd would agree to settle for a 9 game suspension. Too many. Way too many in my opinion.

That said, if that's the best we can get without vacating our entire season, so be it.

The choice wouldn't be accept 9 games, or vacate the season. The choice would be accept 9 games, or go to court.

At this point I'd accept the 9 games and beg that the 2 exhibitions count towards time served, but be happy with 9 games. We might win the 9 anyway and the team would have to fight harder without Wiseman and He be back in time for conference play and we can make up for a bad seed in one game.
11-12-2019 03:53 PM
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rc0213 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
Play Wiseman, no matter what.

He's a possible #1 NBA pick, so, he DON'T deserve to be punished by the Blue Blood who want to punish Memphis.

He deserves to get accolades and raise his NBA stock by playing games and proving how good he is.

NCAA had said he was eligible, which is why he came to Memphis to play. IF NCAA had said he was ineligible to play in Memphis a long time ago, and, given Wiseman a chance to go to another school or to the NBA, then that would be a different story. But, NCAA is punishing Wiseman for changing their minds, and, THAT is WRONG!!!
11-12-2019 04:01 PM
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roundhouse74 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
(11-09-2019 11:34 PM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:58 PM)roundhouse74 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:42 PM)AlonsoWDC Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 09:15 PM)roundhouse74 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 08:41 PM)maximus Wrote:  There have been major pivotal points in history where it takes a true stand to change the trajectory....

This can be a seriously defining moment in the history of sports.

If the NCAA does what the majority thinks it will do and upholds "changing its mind" YET AGAIN... the State, City, university, Penny, and Wiseman should all tell them to pound sand. No matter what they threaten, play the kid and win... win by as many as humanly possible. Turn the entire country on the clown show that is the NCAA. Make them physically pull him off of the floor.

This is a Jessie Owens @ the 36 Olympics moment.

This is a Texas Western vs UK in 66 moment.

Play and win

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Yes thanks to that effort, Texas Western now has a thriving athletic program and UK is relegated to the dustbin of history. (in my dreams) Life's not fair, or, at least the NCAA part of it isn't.

You REALLY missed the point here.

I mean GOOD LORD. That game wasn't about Texas Western v. Kentucky as much as it was about, umm, something else entirely.

I suggest you take a lap and hit the showers and reflect on your wrongness.

No, I know exactly what your point was, but you missed mine. The school that bucked the system basically accomplished nothing for itself and the blue-blood that was playing all white players is a powerhouse basketball program - still. Texas Western won the battle, but they lost the war.

Lol what?

Texas Western didn't lose the war. That's his whole point. The "war" wasn't between Kentucky and Texas Western. Since that game, there was an increasing number of blacks allowed to actually play college basketball with whites, they were able to play at the highest level at the biggest schools, and got/get actual playtime. It has continuously gone up since that game. That "war" as you call it if anything was won by the side in support of equality.

If you're discussing actual programs sure, Texas Western (UTEP) has done nothing in basketball compared to silver spoon-fed/cheating Kentucky. They were very good under Haskins though. At this point, everything is involved. Location, conference affiliation, money, exposure and so on.

College sports aren't fair. It's a known fact. The NCAA is a private organization that governs thousands of schools 85%+ being public and state/federally funded. They should have to answer to someone and they need to learn right now they aren't above the law and need to operate inside the laws both established and proposed by the officials/government of the United States. They got punked by California. Players will be getting paid for their likeness. They have been punked by the schools that got caught up in the FBI probe. They got punked by UNC who was caught red-handed cheating academically, Penn State basically said F you to the NCAA 50% of the way through their 4-year punishment (They deserved more IMO but it is what it is). Louisville after 1 season of firing Pitino and hiring Chris Mack are #5 in the country.

The only schools that suffer are the ones who bend over and take it. We need to fight them until this is over, and then continue to fight them. If the rest of the country would wake up and stop adhering to their BS we wouldn't be in this situation right now. The NCAA let's literally like 5% of the programs in this country run rampant. Regardless of the evidence or anything presented those programs always seemingly get off with light punishments or nothing at all. If the other 95% held the NCAA accountable it wouldn't happen. This is where it starts. F them.

First, this case is nothing like Texas Western and UK. Nothing.
Second, yes, Texas Western's winning helped usher in an era of black athletes getting recruited by major schools, just like USC whipping Alabama did in football.
That's a good outcome, but it was inevitable.

The OP implies that Memphis is fighting some sort of historical battle against the NCAA for some greater, overall cause. It's not. Is the NCAA capricious? Sure. Should Wiseman be allowed to play? Sure. Were rules technically broken? Maybe, but common sense and circumstances say they weren't broken to help Memphis. Will Memphis finally be viewed as a P5 type school because of this? No. It's an "old boys" club of historic P5 schools that has only become more restrictive - not more open - and the NCAA can really screw us if they're willing to withstand a week or so of bad PR. Even Ohio State sat out their ace player when the NCAA told them to, and we're not OSU. Am I a negative Nellie? When dealing with an organization with absolute power, yeah, somewhat.
11-12-2019 04:53 PM
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T.I.G.E.R.S Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Play Wiseman No Matter What
I think the NCAA will settle and possible do a multi game suspension for both Penny and Wiseman
11-12-2019 04:58 PM
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