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Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-08-2019 11:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 10:57 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 09:45 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  At that point, the MVFC could just officially merge with the MVC, since 5 out of the 7 remaining schools are MVC members. WIU and YSU become FB-only affiliates. Perhaps the MVC picks up EIU as another FB-only to round it out to 8. If the OVC doesn't want EIU after that, the Horizon might take them. Not sure if that's a step down or up or sideways. If the Dakota schools are full Big Sky members and not just FB affiliates, the Summit would be hurting for members. They'd certainly take EIU, though that seems like a step down.

If Fullerton's plan would have worked, there would have been no saving the Summit. Centenary had just left, and ORU was likely in early talks for the Southland by this point. Oakland was only a year away from being offered a Horizon slot, and UNO hadn't started the DI transition yet. If SUU, NDSU, SDSU, USD & UND all went to the Big Sky, ORU went to the Southland, and Oakland went to the Horizon all within a year or two, the Summit would have been left with only WIU, IPFW, IUPUI and UMKC. You don't come back from that.

On the MVFC side, it's possible WIU would be forced out of DI by the collapse of the Summit. YSU, always an eastern outlier in the MVFC, might look further east for a new home; maybe OVC or CAA. At that point, the MVFC is down to just five teams and in danger of losing its autobid if it doesn't find a sixth member quick. Regardless, it's a shell of it's former self and no threat to the new super-Big Sky

Had the Summit been reduced to just UMKC, WIU, IPFW, and IUPUI I think they have a couple of options:

Merger with the WAC: Chi St plays in the East with those 4, the rest play in the West; they sell the shell of the conference to the C-USA schools who promptly splits into two legal entities

Rebuild with a waiver: plausible if the NCAA works with them, some Midwest/upper south schools are bound to crawl out of the woodwork right?

Merger with the A-Sun: another league on the fringes of having enough members

Merger with the Horizon: they ultimately took 2 of the 4 eventually.

You speak of this as if it were a common practice and not a NoDak-inspired fever dream. 03-wink
11-09-2019 08:10 AM
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ccd494 Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-09-2019 08:07 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:51 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:02 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 08:15 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Incorrect. The football only schools are not affiliates.

"The CAA Football Conference was formed in 2005, although it did not begin play until 2007, as a separate conference independent of the CAA, but administered by the CAA front office. For this reason, there are no true "football associate members" as every member of CAA Football is a full-member of the football-only conference."

It is immaterial whether Albany are Stony Brook are all sports members of the CAA. They get the same amount of say over the football league as they would otherwise.

Typically when you quote a source, you also provide a link to that source.... 07-coffee3

He got it from Wikipedia, but no original source is listed there. The CAA does seem to have separate documentation for the CAA and CAAF. I came across this page while searching for CAA or CAAF bylaws:

https://caasports.com/sports/2015/9/28/H...cies.aspx?

Also, the conference splits itself in its official mailing address:

https://caasports.com/staff.aspx

It's circumstantial, but it does seem to suggest the two conferences are separate entities on paper. On the flip side, the CAA does not have separate staff titles like the MVC/MVFC does. Over at the MVFC, the staff have MVFC titles while also having separate MVC titles(Patty Viverito is commissioner of the MVFC and senior associate commissioner of the MVC, etc.). In the CAA, there is only a single set of staff titles.

I would think if CAA football were an actual full-fledged FB-only FCS conference that there would be no need for an associate/affiliate member designation. There's only one sport, so you're either a member or not.

Right, and there isn't. You won't see the words affiliate or associate used anywhere on the CAA website.
11-09-2019 08:13 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-09-2019 08:13 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 08:07 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:51 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:02 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 08:15 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  Incorrect. The football only schools are not affiliates.

"The CAA Football Conference was formed in 2005, although it did not begin play until 2007, as a separate conference independent of the CAA, but administered by the CAA front office. For this reason, there are no true "football associate members" as every member of CAA Football is a full-member of the football-only conference."

It is immaterial whether Albany are Stony Brook are all sports members of the CAA. They get the same amount of say over the football league as they would otherwise.

Typically when you quote a source, you also provide a link to that source.... 07-coffee3

He got it from Wikipedia, but no original source is listed there. The CAA does seem to have separate documentation for the CAA and CAAF. I came across this page while searching for CAA or CAAF bylaws:

https://caasports.com/sports/2015/9/28/H...cies.aspx?

Also, the conference splits itself in its official mailing address:

https://caasports.com/staff.aspx

It's circumstantial, but it does seem to suggest the two conferences are separate entities on paper. On the flip side, the CAA does not have separate staff titles like the MVC/MVFC does. Over at the MVFC, the staff have MVFC titles while also having separate MVC titles(Patty Viverito is commissioner of the MVFC and senior associate commissioner of the MVC, etc.). In the CAA, there is only a single set of staff titles.

I would think if CAA football were an actual full-fledged FB-only FCS conference that there would be no need for an associate/affiliate member designation. There's only one sport, so you're either a member or not.

Right, and there isn't. You won't see the words affiliate or associate used anywhere on the CAA website.

It's interesting that CAA football is just another part of the CAA website though: https://caasports.com/?path=football

In any case, it just seems that this is a peculiar case of branding and that "CAA Football" is not a separate legal entity.
11-09-2019 08:24 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-09-2019 08:24 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 08:13 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(11-09-2019 08:07 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:51 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 09:02 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Typically when you quote a source, you also provide a link to that source.... 07-coffee3

He got it from Wikipedia, but no original source is listed there. The CAA does seem to have separate documentation for the CAA and CAAF. I came across this page while searching for CAA or CAAF bylaws:

https://caasports.com/sports/2015/9/28/H...cies.aspx?

Also, the conference splits itself in its official mailing address:

https://caasports.com/staff.aspx

It's circumstantial, but it does seem to suggest the two conferences are separate entities on paper. On the flip side, the CAA does not have separate staff titles like the MVC/MVFC does. Over at the MVFC, the staff have MVFC titles while also having separate MVC titles(Patty Viverito is commissioner of the MVFC and senior associate commissioner of the MVC, etc.). In the CAA, there is only a single set of staff titles.

I would think if CAA football were an actual full-fledged FB-only FCS conference that there would be no need for an associate/affiliate member designation. There's only one sport, so you're either a member or not.

Right, and there isn't. You won't see the words affiliate or associate used anywhere on the CAA website.

It's interesting that CAA football is just another part of the CAA website though: https://caasports.com/?path=football

In any case, it just seems that this is a peculiar case of branding and that "CAA Football" is not a separate legal entity.

I dont believe it is anymore but I may be wrong
11-09-2019 05:04 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
Perhaps most importantly, the NCAA doesn't seem to think there's a separate CAA football conference. Check out their list of conferences: https://web3.ncaa.org/directory/memberList?type=3

Just one entry for the CAA (indicated as I-FCS), while the MVC and MVFC are separate.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2019 05:49 PM by Nerdlinger.)
11-09-2019 05:42 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-09-2019 08:10 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(11-08-2019 11:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 10:57 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 09:45 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  At that point, the MVFC could just officially merge with the MVC, since 5 out of the 7 remaining schools are MVC members. WIU and YSU become FB-only affiliates. Perhaps the MVC picks up EIU as another FB-only to round it out to 8. If the OVC doesn't want EIU after that, the Horizon might take them. Not sure if that's a step down or up or sideways. If the Dakota schools are full Big Sky members and not just FB affiliates, the Summit would be hurting for members. They'd certainly take EIU, though that seems like a step down.

If Fullerton's plan would have worked, there would have been no saving the Summit. Centenary had just left, and ORU was likely in early talks for the Southland by this point. Oakland was only a year away from being offered a Horizon slot, and UNO hadn't started the DI transition yet. If SUU, NDSU, SDSU, USD & UND all went to the Big Sky, ORU went to the Southland, and Oakland went to the Horizon all within a year or two, the Summit would have been left with only WIU, IPFW, IUPUI and UMKC. You don't come back from that.

On the MVFC side, it's possible WIU would be forced out of DI by the collapse of the Summit. YSU, always an eastern outlier in the MVFC, might look further east for a new home; maybe OVC or CAA. At that point, the MVFC is down to just five teams and in danger of losing its autobid if it doesn't find a sixth member quick. Regardless, it's a shell of it's former self and no threat to the new super-Big Sky

Had the Summit been reduced to just UMKC, WIU, IPFW, and IUPUI I think they have a couple of options:

Merger with the WAC: Chi St plays in the East with those 4, the rest play in the West; they sell the shell of the conference to the C-USA schools who promptly splits into two legal entities

Rebuild with a waiver: plausible if the NCAA works with them, some Midwest/upper south schools are bound to crawl out of the woodwork right?

Merger with the A-Sun: another league on the fringes of having enough members

Merger with the Horizon: they ultimately took 2 of the 4 eventually.

You speak of this as if it were a common practice and not a NoDak-inspired fever dream. 03-wink

There definitely isn’t any precedent and it would be of dubious legality for sure. The way the NCAA bylaws are constructed though its an organization of conferences and not institutions. There is going to be a concerted effort to preserve the existence of any of the 32 chartered conferences with autobids should they ever be at risk of disbanding.
11-09-2019 06:17 PM
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Hammersmith Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
Don't know why I didn't think of this before. Separate legal entities.

IRS Form 990 for the CAA: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../541670009

IRS Form 990 for CAA Football: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../421719463
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-09-2019 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The way the NCAA bylaws are constructed though its an organization of conferences and not institutions. There is going to be a concerted effort to preserve the existence of any of the 32 chartered conferences with autobids should they ever be at risk of disbanding.

If anyone ever tries to use an existing conference as a shell to be bartered, I think the big hurdle would be that the bylaws provide that the D-I board of directors decides whether a conference is a "core conference" that receives autobids to March Madness. Anything that looks like one group of schools selling a conference structure for cash, or transferring it to a new group of schools in order to gain some other advantage, could lead to the board saying, nope, sorry, that transferred shell is not a core conference.

So, I wouldn't count on some conference being able to go out of business and get away with selling its shell-with-autobids to half of the Big Sky or CUSA or anyone else.
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 02:02 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Don't know why I didn't think of this before. Separate legal entities.

IRS Form 990 for the CAA: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../541670009

IRS Form 990 for CAA Football: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../421719463

Still, I think what matters most is how the NCAA treats the conferences, and for the CAA, it's as one all-sports conference, including football.
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 06:59 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(Yesterday 02:02 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Don't know why I didn't think of this before. Separate legal entities.

IRS Form 990 for the CAA: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../541670009

IRS Form 990 for CAA Football: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofi.../421719463

Still, I think what matters most is how the NCAA treats the conferences, and for the CAA, it's as one all-sports conference, including football.

(11-06-2019 03:38 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 01:29 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  
(11-05-2019 08:29 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Look. CAA, MVC and now Big Sky Conference have unhappy schools. Even if the commish of all three conferences try to sugarcoat things, the cat is out of the bag of not being happy.

Who is unhappy in the CAA?

They football members wanted Stony Brook and Albany in as full members. It was Hofstra and Northeastern blocking them to join. The football members in the CAA are upset with the non-football members.

Whether or not CAA Football is legally separate from the CAA or not, what DavidSt said is that the CAA all-sports schools have their panties in a bunch over Hofstra and Northeastern blocking Stony Brook and Albany from CAA (all sports) membership. That can be true or (more likely) false whether or not CAA Football is a separate entity.

And for what it's worth, it looks like Hofstra DID block Stony Brook from CAA membership in 2013. https://brook.land/emails-show-hofstra-o...b970daa65b
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 07:27 AM by johnbragg.)
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
For what it’s worth, CAA football is 100% part of the overall CAA and not it’s own thing. With that said I don’t think the non football schools get any say in footballl matters but the affiliates do.

The great irony is that the CAA wanted some northeastern full members who played football so they brought in Northeastern and Hofstra who promptly cancelled their programs once they got there and now prevent the league from adding actual northeastern football schools as full members
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HyperDuke Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-06-2019 05:44 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There's no separate CAA football conference. It's not like the MVFC. There are just CAA members with FB and FB-only affiliates.

CAAFB is a separate entity operated by the same league office.
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 07:39 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  For what it’s worth, CAA football is 100% part of the overall CAA and not it’s own thing. With that said I don’t think the non football schools get any say in footballl matters but the affiliates do.

The great irony is that the CAA wanted some northeastern full members who played football so they brought in Northeastern and Hofstra who promptly cancelled their programs once they got there and now prevent the league from adding actual northeastern football schools as full members


Yes the CAA is wonderful. The two most southern and three most northern members dont play football. So you have half the league that doesnt care about football yet doesnt really want to be in a league with each other
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 04:59 PM by solohawks.)
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 04:59 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(Yesterday 07:39 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  For what it’s worth, CAA football is 100% part of the overall CAA and not it’s own thing. With that said I don’t think the non football schools get any say in footballl matters but the affiliates do.

The great irony is that the CAA wanted some northeastern full members who played football so they brought in Northeastern and Hofstra who promptly cancelled their programs once they got there and now prevent the league from adding actual northeastern football schools as full members


Yes the CAA is wonderful. The two most southern and three most northern members dont play football. So you have half the league that doesnt care about football yet doesnt really want to be in a league with each other

Basketball schools Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, and UNC Wilmington called all of the shots at the last reload and the football schools seemed to get very little of what they wanted.

UNC Wilmington demanded southern schools, which is why Charleston and Elon are in, and the Northern 3 barred Albany and Stony Brook.

I’m really shocked that Delaware, Towson, JMU, and William & Mary tolerated it. I would have threatened to go to America East (or Patriot if you are William & Mary) (or FBS if you’re JMU)
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 06:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(Yesterday 04:59 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(Yesterday 07:39 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  For what it’s worth, CAA football is 100% part of the overall CAA and not it’s own thing. With that said I don’t think the non football schools get any say in footballl matters but the affiliates do.

The great irony is that the CAA wanted some northeastern full members who played football so they brought in Northeastern and Hofstra who promptly cancelled their programs once they got there and now prevent the league from adding actual northeastern football schools as full members


Yes the CAA is wonderful. The two most southern and three most northern members dont play football. So you have half the league that doesnt care about football yet doesnt really want to be in a league with each other

Basketball schools Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, and UNC Wilmington called all of the shots at the last reload and the football schools seemed to get very little of what they wanted.

UNC Wilmington demanded southern schools, which is why Charleston and Elon are in, and the Northern 3 barred Albany and Stony Brook.

I’m really shocked that Delaware, Towson, JMU, and William & Mary tolerated it. I would have threatened to go to America East (or Patriot if you are William & Mary) (or FBS if you’re JMU)

Hofstra vetoed Stony Brook which would have shored up football at 6 and given a nice travel partner for Hofstra, 2 games 1 trip up to NY

That decison also prevented logical north - south divisions which would have also eliminated the currently insane travel burden exists now. A league at the CAAs level should not be a round robin from Boston to Charleston.

The 5 football schools (Towson, Delaware, JMU, W&M, and Elon) actually make sense together with a resonable geographic footprint. The problem lies with the non football schools and them having nothing in common.

If the CAA added a northern and a southern school they could schedule the north and the south schools to play each other with defacto divisions and greatly reduce the travel burden for all team sports. The problem is why would any Southern, A East, or MAAC school join the CAA??

The best case scenario for the CAA would be for either Charleston and UNCW to go to the Southern or Hofstra and Northeastern to go to the MAAC/American East. This would allow the league to pick a geographic footprint instead of being the unholy alliance it currently is.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 07:12 PM by solohawks.)
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CenterSquarEd Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
The Metro Atlantic is all small-enrollment schools. They were willing to push that a bit when Quinnipiac joined, but Hofstra is larger and Northeastern significantly larger. You should expect that they’d never be invited. Although if I had a vote, I would take them.
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lion1983 Offline
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Post: #117
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(11-08-2019 11:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 10:57 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 09:45 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  At that point, the MVFC could just officially merge with the MVC, since 5 out of the 7 remaining schools are MVC members. WIU and YSU become FB-only affiliates. Perhaps the MVC picks up EIU as another FB-only to round it out to 8. If the OVC doesn't want EIU after that, the Horizon might take them. Not sure if that's a step down or up or sideways. If the Dakota schools are full Big Sky members and not just FB affiliates, the Summit would be hurting for members. They'd certainly take EIU, though that seems like a step down.

If Fullerton's plan would have worked, there would have been no saving the Summit. Centenary had just left, and ORU was likely in early talks for the Southland by this point. Oakland was only a year away from being offered a Horizon slot, and UNO hadn't started the DI transition yet. If SUU, NDSU, SDSU, USD & UND all went to the Big Sky, ORU went to the Southland, and Oakland went to the Horizon all within a year or two, the Summit would have been left with only WIU, IPFW, IUPUI and UMKC. You don't come back from that.

On the MVFC side, it's possible WIU would be forced out of DI by the collapse of the Summit. YSU, always an eastern outlier in the MVFC, might look further east for a new home; maybe OVC or CAA. At that point, the MVFC is down to just five teams and in danger of losing its autobid if it doesn't find a sixth member quick. Regardless, it's a shell of it's former self and no threat to the new super-Big Sky

Had the Summit been reduced to just UMKC, WIU, IPFW, and IUPUI I think they have a couple of options:

Merger with the WAC: Chi St plays in the East with those 4, the rest play in the West; they sell the shell of the conference to the C-USA schools who promptly splits into two legal entities

Rebuild with a waiver: plausible if the NCAA works with them, some Midwest/upper south schools are bound to crawl out of the woodwork right?

Merger with the A-Sun: another league on the fringes of having enough members

Merger with the Horizon: they ultimately took 2 of the 4 eventually.

Merger with the A-Sun: another league on the fringes of having enough members

What are you talking about? The ASUN currently has 9, and will have 10 in 2020. The commissioner and presidents of the member University's dont want more than 10. So no, they are not on the "fringe" of having enough members.
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
Lion— historically the A-Sun is an entry level conference. It want too long ago that they just had 8. They’ve taken in some cast offs and projects like NJIT, NKU (prepped them for Horizon membership), Liberty, UNA, and now Bellarmine.


In the time frame discussed the A-Sum’s membership roster was not nearly as robust as it is now. An 8 member league might have jumped on the opportunity to bring in 4 full members
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lion1983 Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
(Yesterday 08:32 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Lion— historically the A-Sun is an entry level conference. It want too long ago that they just had 8. They’ve taken in some cast offs and projects like NJIT, NKU (prepped them for Horizon membership), Liberty, UNA, and now Bellarmine.


In the time frame discussed the A-Sum’s membership roster was not nearly as robust as it is now. An 8 member league might have jumped on the opportunity to bring in 4 full members

I understand the history with the ASUN, as a UNA fan. But the current lineup is not going to want to merge with any conference unless it means more money per school. That's the reason the schools dont want more than 10.

As long as the ASUN is only getting 1 or 2 in the tournament, less is better.
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Post: #120
RE: Big Sky Conference Expansion Article
For now the A-Sun was on shaky ground—now there much more solid. The current line up would have no need to merge. The line up before UNA etc came in wasn’t so confident.
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