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Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
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emu steve Online
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Post: #1
Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
Regulars here know that I have a number of times suggested that as Oakland MBB fortunes went up, EMU MBB's fortune went down.

We used to be a 'go to' school for h.s. basketball players from the Detroit area including those who wish to transfer to the Detroit metro area.

Now OU has a real pipeline to the Detroit area. And lot of is based on their successful program.

Lot of points worth considering in the article... and yes, the Convo. And yes, Milton Barnes failed to continue Braun's program at a high level, etc. etc.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2019/10/30/20...-emu-hoops
10-30-2019 09:29 AM
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EagleSam Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
Oakland’s emergence has almost certainly affected local recruiting. I disagree in regard to our lack of success in that time, however. Murphy has shown that we can field a talented squad any given year by recruiting outside of Michigan. Our two best players in his tenure are from Louisiana and Maryland, and they likely knew very little about mid major basketball in Michigan before coming here.

Not being able to coach these groups of players to victory on a consistent basis is on him, as well as his predecessors. The talent is out there, and Murphy has proven that it can be brought to Ypsilanti.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2019 09:51 AM by EagleSam.)
10-30-2019 09:49 AM
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FrankAnderson Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
Agree with Sam. I think Oakland is a factor, but not the leading cause.

The program took a major step back under Boone and Ramsey, and lost any swagger/reputation it had from the Braun era. The landscape of college basketball has also changed. We got a HIGHLY RANKED Wisconsin team to come to Ypsi, giving us the chance to put on a great show in front of a huge crowd and national audience. Would that EVER happen nowadays? I doubt it. Harder for mid-majors to gain traction.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2019 10:28 AM by FrankAnderson.)
10-30-2019 10:28 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
Every major city should have a mid major program that can pick up the scraps after big schools. some school, whether its U of D, Oakland, Eastern or Toledo should be able to recruit metro detroit and snag the guys that UM and MSU cant bring on for one reason or another. Oakland is good at it - EMU isnt. EMU's next coach has to be someone who can recruit Detroit, Lansing, Flint, GR, and Jackson - or else we'll never break through.
10-30-2019 10:31 AM
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Ken Barna Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
Dear Friends,
One must consider the source of the article. Next, to me the largest reason for Oakland's success is the fact basketball is their only major sport, so their resources go there, not to football. Lastly, their coach is a good recruiter, and a good coach of x's and o's.
10-30-2019 01:46 PM
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emu steve Online
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-30-2019 01:46 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Friends,
One must consider the source of the article. Next, to me the largest reason for Oakland's success is the fact basketball is their only major sport, so their resources go there, not to football. Lastly, their coach is a good recruiter, and a good coach of x's and o's.

Yes.

Our resources ($) are spread very thin.

We have morphed from a MBB to a FB school.
10-30-2019 02:04 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-30-2019 09:29 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Regulars here know that I have a number of times suggested that as Oakland MBB fortunes went up, EMU MBB's fortune went down.

We used to be a 'go to' school for h.s. basketball players from the Detroit area including those who wish to transfer to the Detroit metro area.

Now OU has a real pipeline to the Detroit area. And lot of is based on their successful program.

Lot of points worth considering in the article... and yes, the Convo. And yes, Milton Barnes failed to continue Braun's program at a high level, etc. etc.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2019/10/30/20...-emu-hoops

Very interesting perspective here.The decline of the EMU and UDM programs is undeniable.

Kampe is indeed unique, a small school coach seemingly intent on staying at his current position until retirement. His basketball approach is diametrically opposed to Murphy's, he empathizes "scoring the ball" while Rob is deeply committed to the 2-3 zone. I don't think either approach will make a national splash like Braun did, but that is where we are right now.

The Convo, or the house that Braun built, really needed to be closer to campus considering that basketball is a winter sport. Still it is a gem that there was no room for anywhere else.

I agree with Steve, EMU has morphed into a football school as well as the rest of the MAC. Buffalo was a breath of fresh air the past two years but they did not represent as well as EMU did years ago. Football is the money sport today and the MAC has followed the $ as evidenced by the "Maction" contract with ESPN to play nightly weekday football games. The MAC has contributed quite a few good players to the NFL in recent years, Hunt, Golladay, Crosby to name a few. When was the last time the league had a NBA contributor?

Finally let's not ignore the current local talent situation with regards to recruiting. SE Michigan is no longer the fertile ground it once was due to population trends and birthrates. Plus if you are a young player from the area, you get to choose to attend school at a booming area like Rochester or far less attractive venues like the section of Detroit where UDM is and the Ypsilanti of today.
10-30-2019 06:31 PM
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masttg Offline
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-30-2019 06:31 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 09:29 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Regulars here know that I have a number of times suggested that as Oakland MBB fortunes went up, EMU MBB's fortune went down.

We used to be a 'go to' school for h.s. basketball players from the Detroit area including those who wish to transfer to the Detroit metro area.

Now OU has a real pipeline to the Detroit area. And lot of is based on their successful program.

Lot of points worth considering in the article... and yes, the Convo. And yes, Milton Barnes failed to continue Braun's program at a high level, etc. etc.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2019/10/30/20...-emu-hoops

Very interesting perspective here.The decline of the EMU and UDM programs is undeniable.

Kampe is indeed unique, a small school coach seemingly intent on staying at his current position until retirement. His basketball approach is diametrically opposed to Murphy's, he empathizes "scoring the ball" while Rob is deeply committed to the 2-3 zone. I don't think either approach will make a national splash like Braun did, but that is where we are right now.

The Convo, or the house that Braun built, really needed to be closer to campus considering that basketball is a winter sport. Still it is a gem that there was no room for anywhere else.

I agree with Steve, EMU has morphed into a football school as well as the rest of the MAC. Buffalo was a breath of fresh air the past two years but they did not represent as well as EMU did years ago. Football is the money sport today and the MAC has followed the $ as evidenced by the "Maction" contract with ESPN to play nightly weekday football games. The MAC has contributed quite a few good players to the NFL in recent years, Hunt, Golladay, Crosby to name a few. When was the last time the league had a NBA contributor?

Finally let's not ignore the current local talent situation with regards to recruiting. SE Michigan is no longer the fertile ground it once was due to population trends and birthrates. Plus if you are a young player from the area, you get to choose to attend school at a booming area like Rochester or far less attractive venues like the section of Detroit where UDM is and the Ypsilanti of today.
To piggyback on Jerry: if it was only about MBB budget then why has UDM struggled? All you have to do is look at schools in our conference/region with more endowment and larger salaries (Akron, Kent, OU, UDM, Duquense, DePaul, George Mason or the entire MAAC) to see that they too are struggling.
I think the demographic and economic rise of the 'sunbelt' has more to do with it than the budget. That rise has produced new programs that compete for athletes and coaches that the MAC is trying to get. It has generated a choice in climate and city/program that athletes did not have in 1996. That is there are a lot more 'local' schools than before. Keep in mind that there are now ~350 D1 teams. Schools like Oakland have made the jump alongside hundreds of others in the past 20 years.
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2019 01:31 PM by masttg.)
10-31-2019 01:24 PM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #9
RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-31-2019 01:24 PM)masttg Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 06:31 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 09:29 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Regulars here know that I have a number of times suggested that as Oakland MBB fortunes went up, EMU MBB's fortune went down.

We used to be a 'go to' school for h.s. basketball players from the Detroit area including those who wish to transfer to the Detroit metro area.

Now OU has a real pipeline to the Detroit area. And lot of is based on their successful program.

Lot of points worth considering in the article... and yes, the Convo. And yes, Milton Barnes failed to continue Braun's program at a high level, etc. etc.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2019/10/30/20...-emu-hoops

Very interesting perspective here.The decline of the EMU and UDM programs is undeniable.

Kampe is indeed unique, a small school coach seemingly intent on staying at his current position until retirement. His basketball approach is diametrically opposed to Murphy's, he empathizes "scoring the ball" while Rob is deeply committed to the 2-3 zone. I don't think either approach will make a national splash like Braun did, but that is where we are right now.

The Convo, or the house that Braun built, really needed to be closer to campus considering that basketball is a winter sport. Still it is a gem that there was no room for anywhere else.

I agree with Steve, EMU has morphed into a football school as well as the rest of the MAC. Buffalo was a breath of fresh air the past two years but they did not represent as well as EMU did years ago. Football is the money sport today and the MAC has followed the $ as evidenced by the "Maction" contract with ESPN to play nightly weekday football games. The MAC has contributed quite a few good players to the NFL in recent years, Hunt, Golladay, Crosby to name a few. When was the last time the league had a NBA contributor?

Finally let's not ignore the current local talent situation with regards to recruiting. SE Michigan is no longer the fertile ground it once was due to population trends and birthrates. Plus if you are a young player from the area, you get to choose to attend school at a booming area like Rochester or far less attractive venues like the section of Detroit where UDM is and the Ypsilanti of today.
To piggyback on Jerry: if it was only about MBB budget then why has UDM struggled? All you have to do is look at schools in our conference/region with more endowment and larger salaries (Akron, Kent, OU, UDM, Duquense, DePaul, George Mason or the entire MAAC) to see that they too are struggling.
I think the demographic and economic rise of the 'sunbelt' has more to do with it than the budget. That rise has produced new programs that compete for athletes and coaches that the MAC is trying to get. It has generated a choice in climate and city/program that athletes did not have in 1996. That is there are a lot more 'local' schools than before. Keep in mind that there are now ~350 D1 teams. Schools like Oakland have made the jump alongside hundreds of others in the past 20 years.

Masttg, I completely agree with you.

Yes, demography is a big, big factor in what is happening today. As I've have posted before there is a 'baby bust' in the U.S. and especially in the Midwest. I saw an article this week (?) about declining school enrollment in Michigan schools.

I see several demographic trends which are applicable:

1). As indicated there is a 'baby bust.' The birth rate has been declining for decades and got worse in the Great Recession.

2). The Midwest got clobbered in the Great Recession and hasn't come back. Michigan, e.g., is a shell of what it was 25 years ago, when EMU was spending big bucks on the beautiful campus we see today.

3). There is migration to the sun belt and other cities, e.g., Washington, D.C. which are considered highly desirable for younger people. I hate to think what happened to cities like Huntington, W.Va, the home of Marshall U.
10-31-2019 02:15 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-31-2019 01:24 PM)masttg Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 06:31 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 09:29 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Regulars here know that I have a number of times suggested that as Oakland MBB fortunes went up, EMU MBB's fortune went down.

We used to be a 'go to' school for h.s. basketball players from the Detroit area including those who wish to transfer to the Detroit metro area.

Now OU has a real pipeline to the Detroit area. And lot of is based on their successful program.

Lot of points worth considering in the article... and yes, the Convo. And yes, Milton Barnes failed to continue Braun's program at a high level, etc. etc.

https://www.hustlebelt.com/2019/10/30/20...-emu-hoops

Very interesting perspective here.The decline of the EMU and UDM programs is undeniable.

Kampe is indeed unique, a small school coach seemingly intent on staying at his current position until retirement. His basketball approach is diametrically opposed to Murphy's, he empathizes "scoring the ball" while Rob is deeply committed to the 2-3 zone. I don't think either approach will make a national splash like Braun did, but that is where we are right now.

The Convo, or the house that Braun built, really needed to be closer to campus considering that basketball is a winter sport. Still it is a gem that there was no room for anywhere else.

I agree with Steve, EMU has morphed into a football school as well as the rest of the MAC. Buffalo was a breath of fresh air the past two years but they did not represent as well as EMU did years ago. Football is the money sport today and the MAC has followed the $ as evidenced by the "Maction" contract with ESPN to play nightly weekday football games. The MAC has contributed quite a few good players to the NFL in recent years, Hunt, Golladay, Crosby to name a few. When was the last time the league had a NBA contributor?

Finally let's not ignore the current local talent situation with regards to recruiting. SE Michigan is no longer the fertile ground it once was due to population trends and birthrates. Plus if you are a young player from the area, you get to choose to attend school at a booming area like Rochester or far less attractive venues like the section of Detroit where UDM is and the Ypsilanti of today.
To piggyback on Jerry: if it was only about MBB budget then why has UDM struggled? All you have to do is look at schools in our conference/region with more endowment and larger salaries (Akron, Kent, OU, UDM, Duquense, DePaul, George Mason or the entire MAAC) to see that they too are struggling.
I think the demographic and economic rise of the 'sunbelt' has more to do with it than the budget. That rise has produced new programs that compete for athletes and coaches that the MAC is trying to get. It has generated a choice in climate and city/program that athletes did not have in 1996. That is there are a lot more 'local' schools than before. Keep in mind that there are now ~350 D1 teams. Schools like Oakland have made the jump alongside hundreds of others in the past 20 years.

Thanks for the piggyback! Tom you always post intelligently and I appreciate the enhancement.
10-31-2019 07:25 PM
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(10-30-2019 02:04 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 01:46 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Friends,
One must consider the source of the article. Next, to me the largest reason for Oakland's success is the fact basketball is their only major sport, so their resources go there, not to football. Lastly, their coach is a good recruiter, and a good coach of x's and o's.

Yes.

Our resources ($) are spread very thin.

We have morphed from a MBB to a FB school.

There isn't much difference in spending between OU and EMU.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-813807.html
11-01-2019 12:53 AM
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RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(11-01-2019 12:53 AM)ljmhurons Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 02:04 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 01:46 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Friends,
One must consider the source of the article. Next, to me the largest reason for Oakland's success is the fact basketball is their only major sport, so their resources go there, not to football. Lastly, their coach is a good recruiter, and a good coach of x's and o's.

Yes.

Our resources ($) are spread very thin.

We have morphed from a MBB to a FB school.

There isn't much difference in spending between OU and EMU.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-813807.html

These kind of numbers are very, very hard to interpret comparing school X to Y because of how schools report these kind of numbers. I realize that the numbers are compiled by taking the answers to specific questions.

That said...

1). Without doing the appropriate statistical test (Spearman rho correlation), it is very obvious that there is a very strong relationship between the ranking of performance and expenditures.

2). We ranked #194 out of 348 schools on expenditures and #9 in the MAC. I remember the old expression, "You get what you pay for." Well we aren't paying much. We're shopping at Target and not Nieman Marcus. That said, we are getting good value shopping at Target. There are some schools shopping at Goodwill. The bottom two schools spent 25% of EMU's expenditures and probably less than the income tax withholding on the salary of say the HC at KY (as an example).

3). Even though it is not indicated in the data which was for 2015-6, EMU has cut athletic budgets since that time. I would be fascinated to see how we ranked for 2018 - 9.

4). EMU and the MAC 'punch above their weight class' relative to expenditures. Our expenditures are comparable to Loyola-Md and Canisius, two small private Catholic schools. Those schools 'bracket' EMU in spending per the published data.

One MAY conclude, that we are doing better on the court than one would predict based on dollars spent. Quick pivot to FB: We are getting great value for the dollars we are spending on CC's salary.

EDIT!!!

We are now spending LESS money on MBB than the data supplied for 2015 - 6.

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/1...-mid-major

Eastern Michigan $1,876,259.00 $1,876,260.00 MAC

According to this Facebook post we are #212 (out of almost 350 schools).
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2019 06:45 AM by emu steve.)
11-01-2019 06:21 AM
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ljmhurons Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Article on the Effect of Oakland MBB on EMU MBB
(11-01-2019 06:21 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(11-01-2019 12:53 AM)ljmhurons Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 02:04 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(10-30-2019 01:46 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear Friends,
One must consider the source of the article. Next, to me the largest reason for Oakland's success is the fact basketball is their only major sport, so their resources go there, not to football. Lastly, their coach is a good recruiter, and a good coach of x's and o's.

Yes.

Our resources ($) are spread very thin.

We have morphed from a MBB to a FB school.

There isn't much difference in spending between OU and EMU.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-813807.html

These kind of numbers are very, very hard to interpret comparing school X to Y because of how schools report these kind of numbers. I realize that the numbers are compiled by taking the answers to specific questions.

That said...

1). Without doing the appropriate statistical test (Spearman rho correlation), it is very obvious that there is a very strong relationship between the ranking of performance and expenditures.

2). We ranked #194 out of 348 schools on expenditures and #9 in the MAC. I remember the old expression, "You get what you pay for." Well we aren't paying much. We're shopping at Target and not Nieman Marcus. That said, we are getting good value shopping at Target. There are some schools shopping at Goodwill. The bottom two schools spent 25% of EMU's expenditures and probably less than the income tax withholding on the salary of say the HC at KY (as an example).

3). Even though it is not indicated in the data which was for 2015-6, EMU has cut athletic budgets since that time. I would be fascinated to see how we ranked for 2018 - 9.

4). EMU and the MAC 'punch above their weight class' relative to expenditures. Our expenditures are comparable to Loyola-Md and Canisius, two small private Catholic schools. Those schools 'bracket' EMU in spending per the published data.

One MAY conclude, that we are doing better on the court than one would predict based on dollars spent. Quick pivot to FB: We are getting great value for the dollars we are spending on CC's salary.

EDIT!!!

We are now spending LESS money on MBB than the data supplied for 2015 - 6.

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/1...-mid-major

Eastern Michigan $1,876,259.00 $1,876,260.00 MAC

According to this Facebook post we are #212 (out of almost 350 schools).

In both charts OU and EMU are pretty close in dollars.

I'm not sure the two charts are measuring the same figures. One is a budget. The other is revenue and expenses. No matter, there is not much difference between the schools.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2019 12:48 PM by ljmhurons.)
11-01-2019 12:47 PM
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