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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #281
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 01:48 PM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:23 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  I hate it for the kids and the university that they were sold a bit of goods. Karma for how Bloom treat players is rearing it’s nasty head.

You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team

I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.

+1

0-7 or 2-18 with no country club GREAT

No, nobody said it was great.
10-20-2019 01:52 PM
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Hootnhowln Offline
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Post: #282
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:23 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:17 PM)RiceOwls2019 Wrote:  Apologies to OL83. He’s gotta be the only one happy right now.

I hate it for the kids and the university that they were sold a bit of goods. Karma for how Bloom treat players is rearing it’s nasty head.

You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team

I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.

+1
Kudos to Bloom for bringing in the strength coach and shutting down the supposed country club atmosphere. But it would appear that the kids bought in to what was required to up their game and that the additional work wasn't the cause for any departures with the possible exception of Harmon based on the timing of players leaving team. However, it's counter-productive to chase off quality/experienced players(and I'm not referring to Cephus who we can only assume had a serious issue), not playing experienced players(some of whom started every game last year) in lieu of young players who may have potential but also have no proven performance at college level but are constantly hyped in pressers and in the Roost. Then, calling it a "meritocracy" and saying how it's all about competition. Read the pressers people! What kind of leader puts together a detailed list of plays that cost LA Tech game and only takes responsibility for one bad play call. That says it all about Blooms leadership style. Repeated mention in pressers of Bloom doing all he can and team not knowing how to win. That sounds like a HC trying to shift blame, plain and simple. Think his leadership or lack thereof of as well as the poor play calling are all factors contributing to poor player execution and 0-7 record this year. One could argue the same for last year where team looked encouraging in first three games and then, it all went to hell in a hand-basket until last game.
10-20-2019 02:07 PM
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Hank16 Offline
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Post: #283
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-19-2019 08:23 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:17 PM)RiceOwls2019 Wrote:  Apologies to OL83. He’s gotta be the only one happy right now.

I hate it for the kids and the university that they were sold a bit of goods. Karma for how Bloom treat players is rearing it’s nasty head.

You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team
10-20-2019 02:21 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #284
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 02:07 PM)Hootnhowln Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:23 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  I hate it for the kids and the university that they were sold a bit of goods. Karma for how Bloom treat players is rearing it’s nasty head.
You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team
I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.
+1
Kudos to Bloom for bringing in the strength coach and shutting down the supposed country club atmosphere. But it would appear that the kids bought in to what was required to up their game and that the additional work wasn't the cause for any departures with the possible exception of Harmon based on the timing of players leaving team. However, it's counter-productive to chase off quality/experienced players(and I'm not referring to Cephus who we can only assume had a serious issue), not playing experienced players(some of whom started every game last year) in lieu of young players who may have potential but also have no proven performance at college level but are constantly hyped in pressers and in the Roost. Then, calling it a "meritocracy" and saying how it's all about competition. Read the pressers people! What kind of leader puts together a detailed list of plays that cost LA Tech game and only takes responsibility for one bad play call. That says it all about Blooms leadership style. Repeated mention in pressers of Bloom doing all he can and team not knowing how to win. That sounds like a HC trying to shift blame, plain and simple. Think his leadership or lack thereof of as well as the poor play calling are all factors contributing to poor player execution and 0-7 record this year. One could argue the same for last year where team looked encouraging in first three games and then, it all went to hell in a hand-basket until last game.

If the team does not know how to win, then it would seem that the primary job of the HC is to teach them how.
10-20-2019 02:40 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #285
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 02:40 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 02:07 PM)Hootnhowln Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team
I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.
+1
Kudos to Bloom for bringing in the strength coach and shutting down the supposed country club atmosphere. But it would appear that the kids bought in to what was required to up their game and that the additional work wasn't the cause for any departures with the possible exception of Harmon based on the timing of players leaving team. However, it's counter-productive to chase off quality/experienced players(and I'm not referring to Cephus who we can only assume had a serious issue), not playing experienced players(some of whom started every game last year) in lieu of young players who may have potential but also have no proven performance at college level but are constantly hyped in pressers and in the Roost. Then, calling it a "meritocracy" and saying how it's all about competition. Read the pressers people! What kind of leader puts together a detailed list of plays that cost LA Tech game and only takes responsibility for one bad play call. That says it all about Blooms leadership style. Repeated mention in pressers of Bloom doing all he can and team not knowing how to win. That sounds like a HC trying to shift blame, plain and simple. Think his leadership or lack thereof of as well as the poor play calling are all factors contributing to poor player execution and 0-7 record this year. One could argue the same for last year where team looked encouraging in first three games and then, it all went to hell in a hand-basket until last game.

If the team does not know how to win, then it would seem that the primary job of the HC is to teach them how.

A good start would be to teach them not to fumble snaps and not throw passes into the flat with a DB licking his chops waiting for an easy pick 6.
10-20-2019 03:01 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #286
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 03:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 02:40 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 02:07 PM)Hootnhowln Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.
+1
Kudos to Bloom for bringing in the strength coach and shutting down the supposed country club atmosphere. But it would appear that the kids bought in to what was required to up their game and that the additional work wasn't the cause for any departures with the possible exception of Harmon based on the timing of players leaving team. However, it's counter-productive to chase off quality/experienced players(and I'm not referring to Cephus who we can only assume had a serious issue), not playing experienced players(some of whom started every game last year) in lieu of young players who may have potential but also have no proven performance at college level but are constantly hyped in pressers and in the Roost. Then, calling it a "meritocracy" and saying how it's all about competition. Read the pressers people! What kind of leader puts together a detailed list of plays that cost LA Tech game and only takes responsibility for one bad play call. That says it all about Blooms leadership style. Repeated mention in pressers of Bloom doing all he can and team not knowing how to win. That sounds like a HC trying to shift blame, plain and simple. Think his leadership or lack thereof of as well as the poor play calling are all factors contributing to poor player execution and 0-7 record this year. One could argue the same for last year where team looked encouraging in first three games and then, it all went to hell in a hand-basket until last game.
If the team does not know how to win, then it would seem that the primary job of the HC is to teach them how.
A good start would be to teach them not to fumble snaps and not throw passes into the flat with a DB licking his chops waiting for an easy pick 6.

I've written before about football-playing skills versus game-winning skills. You don't get anywhere without football-playing skills. But most of our players have at least some reasonable level of those. They were recruited out of high school after all.

But Rice teams have driven me up the wall for years with their lack of game-winning skills. Take the sequence before the half against LaTech. You have some fundamental principles. You have 3 points in your pocket, so you don't want to lose that, whatever else happens. If you score a TD, you take it and don't worry about the clock. But if you have to kick a FG, you want to run the clock out on the FG attempt, or as nearly so as possible. You have first and goal, roughly a minute before the half, you are up by a TD, and you have 2 timeouts. If you don't score on 3rd down, you want to have a time out left with the clock running, so you can run it down to 0:04, stop it, and kick the FG. You need at least one pass that either scores a TD or is incomplete (saving a timeout) in the sequence. You don't want the incomplete pass on 3rd down, because then you may not be able to run the clock down. So you throw the ball on first and/or second down. You have two results that you cannot accept--interception or sack. If you don't score on those two plays, you run the ball on 3rd down, run the clock down, and kick. Those principles should be drilled and practiced until they are thoroughly understood by every player on the field. QB, on the pass play(s), if it's there quickly take it, if not throw it away. Runner, on the running play(s), score if you can but ball security is paramount. Don't either one of you go trying to be a hero and turning the ball over. You drill and practice that until everybody knows the basic principles and can do them in their sleep. You have to score if you can, absolutely do not give away the FG, and be able to drain the clock if you don't score the TD. If the QB fully understands that, he doesn't throw the pick and we kick the FG to go up 2 scores. Then if we understand the importance of the first possession of the second half, we get at least another FG there, and that puts the game to the point that with what happened subsequently, we win easily in regulation. Now, there is certainly no reason to believe the rest of the game will go exactly as it did, but with another 6-14 points on our side of the scoreboard, there is every reason to believe it will go at least as well as, if not better than, it actually did.

We obviously did not have the principles ingrained in our awareness. Otherwise we don't throw the pick, kick the FG, and take a 2 score lead to the half.

There are lots of teams at every level that are not as good at this as they should be. I remember the winning FG against East Carolina. It took a prayer by the QB, a great catch by Jarrett Dillard on 4th and forever, and some really clever clock management to get that done. The next day, or shortly thereafter, I saw an NFL team with basically the same situation make a total hash of the clock management and never get to attempt the FG. So it takes work. But if you want to win football games, particularly if you want to steal one you don't deserve, you have to do that work.
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2019 03:32 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-20-2019 03:28 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #287
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 11:46 AM)franklyconfused Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 10:52 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I agree though... you could run the same play out of shotgun... and use the time normally reserved for faking the run to instead, look off the safety or linebacker.

Looking off the safety would be a much more effective use of that time in that situation. If the defense isn't worried at all about our running backs getting loose for 10+ yards on 3rd and long, play action won't get them out of position to defend the pass. Wasting that time faking a run may get the route timing correct, but it limits the offense to either hoping that defense makes an unforced error (e.g. slip, misread of a route) or else the QB can make a great throw with less time to read.

Don't disagree at all... but it seems that we have a relatively small play package in the passing game and apparently didn't practice this. Our run-heavy offense relies on successful running so that the play action is effective.

So we ran the play we have for this... which apparently has no ability to simply run shotgun and look left when we want to throw right as opposed to dropping back and faking the run.

It's a very obvious flaw and shows a lack of trust/qb skills. I don't know nor really care at this point which.
10-20-2019 05:42 PM
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ATXowl Offline
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Post: #288
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 02:07 PM)Hootnhowln Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-19-2019 08:23 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  I hate it for the kids and the university that they were sold a bit of goods. Karma for how Bloom treat players is rearing it’s nasty head.

You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team

I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.

+1
Kudos to Bloom for bringing in the strength coach and shutting down the supposed country club atmosphere. But it would appear that the kids bought in to what was required to up their game and that the additional work wasn't the cause for any departures with the possible exception of Harmon based on the timing of players leaving team. However, it's counter-productive to chase off quality/experienced players(and I'm not referring to Cephus who we can only assume had a serious issue), not playing experienced players(some of whom started every game last year) in lieu of young players who may have potential but also have no proven performance at college level but are constantly hyped in pressers and in the Roost. Then, calling it a "meritocracy" and saying how it's all about competition. Read the pressers people! What kind of leader puts together a detailed list of plays that cost LA Tech game and only takes responsibility for one bad play call. That says it all about Blooms leadership style. Repeated mention in pressers of Bloom doing all he can and team not knowing how to win. That sounds like a HC trying to shift blame, plain and simple. Think his leadership or lack thereof of as well as the poor play calling are all factors contributing to poor player execution and 0-7 record this year. One could argue the same for last year where team looked encouraging in first three games and then, it all went to hell in a hand-basket until last game.

WORD!
10-20-2019 06:37 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #289
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 05:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:46 AM)franklyconfused Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 10:52 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I agree though... you could run the same play out of shotgun... and use the time normally reserved for faking the run to instead, look off the safety or linebacker.
Looking off the safety would be a much more effective use of that time in that situation. If the defense isn't worried at all about our running backs getting loose for 10+ yards on 3rd and long, play action won't get them out of position to defend the pass. Wasting that time faking a run may get the route timing correct, but it limits the offense to either hoping that defense makes an unforced error (e.g. slip, misread of a route) or else the QB can make a great throw with less time to read.
Don't disagree at all... but it seems that we have a relatively small play package in the passing game and apparently didn't practice this. Our run-heavy offense relies on successful running so that the play action is effective.
So we ran the play we have for this... which apparently has no ability to simply run shotgun and look left when we want to throw right as opposed to dropping back and faking the run.
It's a very obvious flaw and shows a lack of trust/qb skills. I don't know nor really care at this point which.

Or just a lack of proper conceptual design. I know of at least three passing game systems that have relatively few plays, but have the ability to adapt to and defeat whatever the defense is doing--Run-and-Shoot, Air Raid, and RUOwls's Air Coryell West Coast passing game. You could have all 3 for about 25 plays. Run them from the flexbone and add triple option running game--about 8-10 plays--and a few screens and draws, and you'd have a very complete playbook in roughly 40 plays. With that number, you'd have plenty of practice time to perfect them all.
10-20-2019 06:52 PM
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Ricefootballnet Offline
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Post: #290
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 05:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:46 AM)franklyconfused Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 10:52 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I agree though... you could run the same play out of shotgun... and use the time normally reserved for faking the run to instead, look off the safety or linebacker.
Looking off the safety would be a much more effective use of that time in that situation. If the defense isn't worried at all about our running backs getting loose for 10+ yards on 3rd and long, play action won't get them out of position to defend the pass. Wasting that time faking a run may get the route timing correct, but it limits the offense to either hoping that defense makes an unforced error (e.g. slip, misread of a route) or else the QB can make a great throw with less time to read.
Don't disagree at all... but it seems that we have a relatively small play package in the passing game and apparently didn't practice this. Our run-heavy offense relies on successful running so that the play action is effective.
So we ran the play we have for this... which apparently has no ability to simply run shotgun and look left when we want to throw right as opposed to dropping back and faking the run.
It's a very obvious flaw and shows a lack of trust/qb skills. I don't know nor really care at this point which.

Or just a lack of proper conceptual design. I know of at least three passing game systems that have relatively few plays, but have the ability to adapt to and defeat whatever the defense is doing--Run-and-Shoot, Air Raid, and RUOwls's Air Coryell West Coast passing game. You could have all 3 for about 25 plays. Run them from the flexbone and add triple option running game--about 8-10 plays--and a few screens and draws, and you'd have a very complete playbook in roughly 40 plays. With that number, you'd have plenty of practice time to perfect them all.

Yes! Couldnt agree more, but I’d be struck deaf and dumb if it ever happened…
10-20-2019 07:25 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #291
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 03:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But Rice teams have driven me up the wall for years with their lack of game-winning skills. Take the sequence before the half against LaTech. You have some fundamental principles. You have 3 points in your pocket, so you don't want to lose that, whatever else happens. If you score a TD, you take it and don't worry about the clock. But if you have to kick a FG, you want to run the clock out on the FG attempt, or as nearly so as possible. You have first and goal, roughly a minute before the half, you are up by a TD, and you have 2 timeouts. If you don't score on 3rd down, you want to have a time out left with the clock running, so you can run it down to 0:04, stop it, and kick the FG. You need at least one pass that either scores a TD or is incomplete (saving a timeout) in the sequence. You don't want the incomplete pass on 3rd down, because then you may not be able to run the clock down. So you throw the ball on first and/or second down. You have two results that you cannot accept--interception or sack. If you don't score on those two plays, you run the ball on 3rd down, run the clock down, and kick. Those principles should be drilled and practiced until they are thoroughly understood by every player on the field. QB, on the pass play(s), if it's there quickly take it, if not throw it away. Runner, on the running play(s), score if you can but ball security is paramount. Don't either one of you go trying to be a hero and turning the ball over. You drill and practice that until everybody knows the basic principles and can do them in their sleep. You have to score if you can, absolutely do not give away the FG, and be able to drain the clock if you don't score the TD. If the QB fully understands that, he doesn't throw the pick and we kick the FG to go up 2 scores. Then if we understand the importance of the first possession of the second half, we get at least another FG there, and that puts the game to the point that with what happened subsequently, we win easily in regulation.
...
We obviously did not have the principles ingrained in our awareness. Otherwise we don't throw the pick, kick the FG, and take a 2 score lead to the half.
...
So it takes work. But if you want to win football games, particularly if you want to steal one you don't deserve, you have to do that work.

One question: why do you think this sort of understanding requires so much drilling and ingraining? The clock-management principles you mention seem self-explanatory to me -- something that anyone who just thinks through the scenarios should be able to grasp. And in particular, it seems that thinking through scenarios is a skill that Rice players are probably quite good at it. Or does that skill sort of get beaten out of them at some point?
10-20-2019 11:35 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #292
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 11:35 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 03:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But Rice teams have driven me up the wall for years with their lack of game-winning skills. Take the sequence before the half against LaTech. You have some fundamental principles. You have 3 points in your pocket, so you don't want to lose that, whatever else happens. If you score a TD, you take it and don't worry about the clock. But if you have to kick a FG, you want to run the clock out on the FG attempt, or as nearly so as possible. You have first and goal, roughly a minute before the half, you are up by a TD, and you have 2 timeouts. If you don't score on 3rd down, you want to have a time out left with the clock running, so you can run it down to 0:04, stop it, and kick the FG. You need at least one pass that either scores a TD or is incomplete (saving a timeout) in the sequence. You don't want the incomplete pass on 3rd down, because then you may not be able to run the clock down. So you throw the ball on first and/or second down. You have two results that you cannot accept--interception or sack. If you don't score on those two plays, you run the ball on 3rd down, run the clock down, and kick. Those principles should be drilled and practiced until they are thoroughly understood by every player on the field. QB, on the pass play(s), if it's there quickly take it, if not throw it away. Runner, on the running play(s), score if you can but ball security is paramount. Don't either one of you go trying to be a hero and turning the ball over. You drill and practice that until everybody knows the basic principles and can do them in their sleep. You have to score if you can, absolutely do not give away the FG, and be able to drain the clock if you don't score the TD. If the QB fully understands that, he doesn't throw the pick and we kick the FG to go up 2 scores. Then if we understand the importance of the first possession of the second half, we get at least another FG there, and that puts the game to the point that with what happened subsequently, we win easily in regulation.
...
We obviously did not have the principles ingrained in our awareness. Otherwise we don't throw the pick, kick the FG, and take a 2 score lead to the half.
...
So it takes work. But if you want to win football games, particularly if you want to steal one you don't deserve, you have to do that work.

One question: why do you think this sort of understanding requires so much drilling and ingraining? The clock-management principles you mention seem self-explanatory to me -- something that anyone who just thinks through the scenarios should be able to grasp. And in particular, it seems that thinking through scenarios is a skill that Rice players are probably quite good at it. Or does that skill sort of get beaten out of them at some point?

I always have wondered how difficult of a dynamic there is (in football) when the athletes are smarter than the coaches.
10-21-2019 12:28 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #293
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 07:25 PM)Ricefootballnet Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 05:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:46 AM)franklyconfused Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 10:52 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I agree though... you could run the same play out of shotgun... and use the time normally reserved for faking the run to instead, look off the safety or linebacker.
Looking off the safety would be a much more effective use of that time in that situation. If the defense isn't worried at all about our running backs getting loose for 10+ yards on 3rd and long, play action won't get them out of position to defend the pass. Wasting that time faking a run may get the route timing correct, but it limits the offense to either hoping that defense makes an unforced error (e.g. slip, misread of a route) or else the QB can make a great throw with less time to read.
Don't disagree at all... but it seems that we have a relatively small play package in the passing game and apparently didn't practice this. Our run-heavy offense relies on successful running so that the play action is effective.
So we ran the play we have for this... which apparently has no ability to simply run shotgun and look left when we want to throw right as opposed to dropping back and faking the run.
It's a very obvious flaw and shows a lack of trust/qb skills. I don't know nor really care at this point which.
Or just a lack of proper conceptual design. I know of at least three passing game systems that have relatively few plays, but have the ability to adapt to and defeat whatever the defense is doing--Run-and-Shoot, Air Raid, and RUOwls's Air Coryell West Coast passing game. You could have all 3 for about 25 plays. Run them from the flexbone and add triple option running game--about 8-10 plays--and a few screens and draws, and you'd have a very complete playbook in roughly 40 plays. With that number, you'd have plenty of practice time to perfect them all.
Yes! Couldnt agree more, but I’d be struck deaf and dumb if it ever happened…

The standard coachspeak response is that it is too difficult and/or complex for players to master. But as I noted, it's not many plays, so there should be ample time to practice and master them. Bob Wagner and Paul Johnson did it at Hawaii 30 years ago, and I doubt their athletes were smarter than ours are. I think it may be too complex for coaches to master.
(This post was last modified: 10-21-2019 05:35 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-21-2019 04:55 AM
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Hank16 Offline
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Post: #294
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 01:52 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:48 PM)Hank16 Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 01:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 12:47 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hank16 Wrote:  You can hate OL83 all you want but he is right. Running off upperclassman, and sitting experienced players is not the right way to build a team

I have no problem with Bloomgren shutting down the Bailiff Country Club. It's his in-game decisionmaking that's the problem.

+1

0-7 or 2-18 with no country club GREAT

No, nobody said it was great.

OK, then you have no problem
(This post was last modified: 10-21-2019 05:24 AM by Hank16.)
10-21-2019 05:23 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #295
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 11:35 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  One question: why do you think this sort of understanding requires so much drilling and ingraining? The clock-management principles you mention seem self-explanatory to me -- something that anyone who just thinks through the scenarios should be able to grasp. And in particular, it seems that thinking through scenarios is a skill that Rice players are probably quite good at it. Or does that skill sort of get beaten out of them at some point?

I don't think it necessarily requires a lot of drilling and ingraining. But it requires some. And I think a lot of coaches don't want to give up any time to work on it. You spend 10 minutes a day practicing special situations over the course of spring and what used to be two-a-days, and by the start of the season you have pretty much covered everything, and players understand the principles that apply to specific situations that are not covered specifically. Then coaches go over it again and again in game management meetings, and you review parts of it weekly in practice during the season.

Lots of coaches don't like to do that. They don't want to give up the time because they want to work on some new play they created or some fancy defensive scheme. Shorten the playbook, perfect your execution, and spend enough time on special situations that every coach and player knows how to respond. Teach the principles, then execute them on the field. Ten more minutes a day is not going to improve you enough at running 200 plays from 40 formations to make a difference in winning or losing a game. But you can perfect execution of maybe 40 plays from maybe 10 formations, and have 10 minutes left over to perfect the understanding of how to finish off wins when the opportunity presents itself.

Now, I have mentioned several times the clock management on the winning field goal against East Carolina in 2006. That doesn't happen unless everybody on the field knows exactly what has to be done. One guy not on the same page can ruin it. As I understand it, Todd had his own way of finding time to practice that stuff, which I don't recommend.

I think WRC may be on the right track. The players may be smarter than the coaches. But consistently mismanaging situations makes both players and coaches look stupid. And we have botched a bunch of them.
(This post was last modified: 10-21-2019 05:38 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-21-2019 05:34 AM
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Grungy Offline
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Post: #296
RE: UTSA game thread
Somewhere in that last drive, we completed a pass to either Trammell or Pitre near the right sideline, and it appeared to me that he made it out of bounds before being tackled, yet the clock continued to run.
My POV wasn't great, and he may have touched a knee.
Was everyone on the team completely unaware that the clock was running?
(Neither of the play-by-plays that I can find online includes start time for each play.)
10-21-2019 09:20 AM
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waltgreenberg Online
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Post: #297
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-21-2019 09:20 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Somewhere in that last drive, we completed a pass to either Trammell or Pitre near the right sideline, and it appeared to me that he made it out of bounds before being tackled, yet the clock continued to run.
My POV wasn't great, and he may have touched a knee.
Was everyone on the team completely unaware that the clock was running?
(Neither of the play-by-plays that I can find online includes start time for each play.)

Heck, after that inexplicable running play we let the clock run down another 25 seconds. No urgency whatsoever. It was as if no one on the field or the coaching staff has ever played football before.
10-21-2019 09:33 AM
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Grungy Offline
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Post: #298
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-21-2019 09:33 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(10-21-2019 09:20 AM)Grungy Wrote:  Somewhere in that last drive, we completed a pass to either Trammell or Pitre near the right sideline, and it appeared to me that he made it out of bounds before being tackled, yet the clock continued to run.
My POV wasn't great, and he may have touched a knee.
Was everyone on the team completely unaware that the clock was running?
(Neither of the play-by-plays that I can find online includes start time for each play.)

Heck, after that inexplicable running play we let the clock run down another 25 seconds. No urgency whatsoever. It was as if no one on the field or the coaching staff has ever played football before.

I can understand the coaching staff not wanting to leave 13 seconds on the clock after we score to make it harder for the opponent to score again.
With our offense though, this is a bit of chicken counting.
The risk-assessment and cost/benefit thinking is skewed, in hindsight.
Score first, worry later.
10-21-2019 09:58 AM
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Hootnhowln Offline
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Post: #299
RE: UTSA game thread
(10-20-2019 11:35 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(10-20-2019 03:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But Rice teams have driven me up the wall for years with their lack of game-winning skills. Take the sequence before the half against LaTech. You have some fundamental principles. You have 3 points in your pocket, so you don't want to lose that, whatever else happens. If you score a TD, you take it and don't worry about the clock. But if you have to kick a FG, you want to run the clock out on the FG attempt, or as nearly so as possible. You have first and goal, roughly a minute before the half, you are up by a TD, and you have 2 timeouts. If you don't score on 3rd down, you want to have a time out left with the clock running, so you can run it down to 0:04, stop it, and kick the FG. You need at least one pass that either scores a TD or is incomplete (saving a timeout) in the sequence. You don't want the incomplete pass on 3rd down, because then you may not be able to run the clock down. So you throw the ball on first and/or second down. You have two results that you cannot accept--interception or sack. If you don't score on those two plays, you run the ball on 3rd down, run the clock down, and kick. Those principles should be drilled and practiced until they are thoroughly understood by every player on the field. QB, on the pass play(s), if it's there quickly take it, if not throw it away. Runner, on the running play(s), score if you can but ball security is paramount. Don't either one of you go trying to be a hero and turning the ball over. You drill and practice that until everybody knows the basic principles and can do them in their sleep. You have to score if you can, absolutely do not give away the FG, and be able to drain the clock if you don't score the TD. If the QB fully understands that, he doesn't throw the pick and we kick the FG to go up 2 scores. Then if we understand the importance of the first possession of the second half, we get at least another FG there, and that puts the game to the point that with what happened subsequently, we win easily in regulation.
...
We obviously did not have the principles ingrained in our awareness. Otherwise we don't throw the pick, kick the FG, and take a 2 score lead to the half.
...
So it takes work. But if you want to win football games, particularly if you want to steal one you don't deserve, you have to do that work.

One question: why do you think this sort of understanding requires so much drilling and ingraining? The clock-management principles you mention seem self-explanatory to me -- something that anyone who just thinks through the scenarios should be able to grasp. And in particular, it seems that thinking through scenarios is a skill that Rice players are probably quite good at it. Or does that skill sort of get beaten out of them at some point?

Hard to figure out what is wrong and not blaming everything on coach. Sometimes, the players have the deer in the headlights look. Obviously, there are lots of factors that are contributing to these horrific loses. Some are intangible things that one can't put a finger on.
Maybe the QB's are too afraid to go against the scripted play? Kind a vicious circle as the QB play has been poor so coaches don't trust them to follow their instincts but other times, looks like the players have no football instincts and do dumb A$$ stuff as maybe they no longer trust their instincts.
Used to make me cringe last year when we'd throw to Tram in double, sometimes triple coverage when other receivers or tight end wide open in middle of field, easy throw, easy TD waiting to happen. We did throw to some other guys in first three games of the year. Think it was the Hawaii game in particular where Cardwell and maybe another receiver got some catches and then, where'd they go? Now, we only throw to three people--Tram, Pitre and Rozner. Why burn Bailey's red shirt if you're not going to throw to him? Talk about predictable.
Pitre has awesome high point catches but wish they'd stop throwing to him on a slant. Not his thing. He doesn't get separation, blocking for him often poor, he's in double coverage and usually ball goes threw his hands. Maybe he's gun shy about the two DB's about to light him up cause in HS, he just out-athleted everyone? In other words, many guys on this team have strengths but get the impression, coaches are not utilizing them well. Look at some of the TE's in last couple of games. They aren't blocking well, don't seem to know what they're doing or pace of game is just faster than what they're used to from HS? Not to pick on anyone specifically but their football sense needs to be even better to make up for their lack of speed. Last year we threw the ball to Bull(a more experienced TE) a few times and he was wide open, even got a TD. He's a big guy, blocks well, runs smooth routes but don't think he's been targeted this year. It's like Bloom just looks at the young guys or what some call "his guys" and who SHOULD be able to do the job based on metrics. Can't figure it out.
Other than Tram and Rozner, offense seems to be lacking something intangible, let's call it "grit". Kudos to Rozner who has really turned up that oomph factor with each game. Someone posted about Marshman in earlier post. That kid showed grit and some "juice". He made things happen, somehow, some way and it seemed to impact the entire O. Defense usually displays this "it" factor but we need whatever it is on offense too.
10-21-2019 11:52 AM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #300
RE: UTSA game thread
At this point, I wouldn't throw out the offense at all, but I would have Jerry Mack call the plays. I can't imagine the horror on game day, sitting there helplessly as he watches the ineptitude unfold, knowing damn well that he could call a better game.

This offense may actually work, but we wouldn't necessarily know it because Bloomgren is so conservative. He's his own worst enemy. It's past time he stand aside and let the coach who specializes in offense, run the offense...
10-21-2019 01:24 PM
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