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Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
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jedclampett Online
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Post: #21
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
p.s. The idea of telling other players not to shoot so Temple's Big 3 could get more shot opportunities seems slightly mistaken in retrospect.

Yes, Big 3 should have gotten most shots as they did, but against better opponents, it was too easy for them to simply focus on shutting down Temple's Big 3, knowing that no other TU player would pick up enough on the scoring.

This strikes me as a fundamental error in judgment on the part of the prior HC. He should have known better to design such a limited offensive scheme. Severely restricting shots by other players essentially took them out of the offense and did not help their development as players.
10-14-2019 06:51 AM
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Miggy Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
The nice part about Temple spreading the floor, and Hamilton playing on the perimeter at times, is that it forces opponents to choose between sending their big out to guard him, or to instead stay at home, and leave Hamilton unguarded on the three-point line. If the big stays at home, Hamilton will have a field day shooting the three-ball. My fear is that McKie will not have him shoot three’s as much as he should.

If the opponent’ big does come-out on Hamilton- Scott, Nate, Rose, Perry, and even Moorman, will should each eat the opponent’s lunch, as they will have virtual free pass to the hoop.

HC McKie will figure it out whether Moorman or Perry starts. I prefer Moorman as he’s more of an offensive player than Perry is, but if he wants a more perimeter defensive player, especially if the opponent has four good three-point shooters on the court, he can Perry, a lock-down perimeter defender.

D.Moore, Hamilton, and Parks will play Center, but don’t know how much Parks will play. McKie playing both D.Moore and Hamilton together is a good idea. Don’t know if he’ll do that. Also, don’t know what his small line-up is.

I cut FD some slack in his limiting Moorman, Alani, Ern and D. Moore shooting the ball, as he wanted those players to concentrate on primarily on other things.
M
When I looked closely at Temple’s losses, we see time and again, games where Rose or Alston were way off in their shooting, and NPL also a few times, but they continued to shoot when other really good shooters were not shooting. That cost Temple wins. Don’t want to see that repeated this year, but fear it may, although it didn’t occur in intra-squad open scrimmages.

Don’t think the extended three-point line, will effect either the number of three’s attempted, nor percentage made, as few players shoot three’s near the former line anyhow. Most NBA and college teams increase there three’s each year. Some NBA and college teams rapidly approaching 50 percent of all shots being three’s. Given the number of decent three-point shooters, Temple should increase the number of three’s shot as well.

There is a need for the near extinction of taking any long two-point jump shots from beyond the foul-line extending out to the three point lin as most shooters now shoot those shots very poorly. want to see ,instead, drives to the hoop,, 2-point jumpers near the hoop, or three’-point shots..

If Temple eliminated long two-point jump shots, Temple’s 2-piint Shooting Percentage and points scored will sky-rocket,,as will the number of three’s scored.

Also believe with more close-in shots, even if missed, there will be more of an opportunity to garner offensive rebounds.

Added some other stuff in prior post on Scott and other observations after you posted.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 07:19 AM by Miggy.)
10-14-2019 07:30 AM
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Miggy Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
I’ve saved this separate space for Nate-Pierre Louise, one of my favorite Temple players. We all know that he goes non-stop on the court that few players can match.

This past season Nate’s overall 2-point shooting declined very little from his freshman year in conference play (52.8 to 51 percent).

Nate is a slasher who’s very good at scoring at the hoop as he shot 108-174 or 62.1 percent at the hoop for the season, and was extraordinary in getting to the foul-line.

He’s ok shooting three’s (34.6) if he takes just a few of them per game.

He should eliminate shooting long distance two’s, as, 20 percent of all his 10.3 or 2.2 per game were long distance 2’s, and he only shot 19-75 on long distance shots or 25.3 percent.

His inprovement in certain statistical categories this past season in conference play was simply incredible.

He played a major part in Temple’s success this past season.

Temple took 253 foul shots in conference play last season, 11th in the AAC. This past season Temple took 400 foul shots in conference play, the 4th most taken by any team in conference play. Such was a huge jump.,

This was largely do to Alston, Rose and NPL, taking easy more trips to the foul-line.

Nate saw his playing time rise from 20.4 mpg in his freshman year to 34.1 mpg in conference play. His biggest improvement from his freshman year was getting to the foul-line, for even though his playing time increased over a third, he more than doubled the number of foul-shots he took, as it went from 2.6 to 5.6 per game in conference play.

He also improved his foul shooting from 57.6 percent from the previous season, to 69 percent in conference play his sophomore year.

He averaged 2.5 foul-shots made per game his freshman year, and saw that increased to 3.8 foul-shot made per game in conference play his soohomore year.

In his freshman year his fga’s relationship to foul shots attempted was 33 percent.

In his sophomore year, he averaged 10.3 fga’s, and he averaged 5.6 foul shots attempts per game in conference games. So the ratio of fga’s to foul shot attempts was 50 percent of all fga’s.

I can’t a find a stat like that for any other college bb player in the country, but I doubt that any other player approaches that percentage. Even Jarron Cumberland, the AAC’s player of the year, who took more foul-shots per game than anyone in the conference only had a 41 percent ratio of foul shots to fga’s.

Nate increased his total rebounds from 3. 3 his freshman year to 5.1 in conference play his sophomore year.

His assists improved from .7 to 1.9 his sophomore year.

Nate’s steals increased from 1.1 to 1.4 per game in conference play from the year before.

Even though his playing only increased by a little over 1/3 from his freshman year, his turnovers doubled from .9 his freshman year to 1.8 his sophomore year.

Nate shot 34.7 on three’s in conference play. He sveraged taking 2.7 three’s per game and averaged making .9 per game. He shot slightly less than 30 percent on three’s at the start of the season in non-conference games.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 07:48 AM by Miggy.)
10-14-2019 11:20 AM
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jedclampett Online
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Post: #24
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
Interesting.

I really noticed how much emphasis Coach McKie put on the loss of Dunn until late November, and his point that he is really looking forward to watching Dunn "play" on the court this season. These remarks echo yours, and fit also with what I've seen of Dunn in his videos.

Far too soon to make any comparisons, but I'm starting to get the sense/intuition that if Dunn's foot heals quickly enough, he could be the kind of impact player that Rose and NPL were in their freshman year, and could earn up to something like 15-20 mpg of playing time.

Do you know anything more about Dunn's injury, and how long ago it and his surgery took place?

If it were a major stress fracture or achilles type injury, he would be out until spring, at the earliest, and might have to redshirt. But the injury did require surgery, and recovering from foot surgery is tough because of the weight a body puts on the foot all day. Staying off the foot means losing some muscle tone, but he can exercise bike to keep somewhat fit enough.

If he's using an exercise bike, with a protective boot of some kind, I assume it's not an ankle injury, at least not a severe one, because flexing the ankle isn't a good idea for some weeks, until physical therapy begins.

So that narrows things down to relatively minor surgeries. Could he have broken one of his smaller foot bones, perhaps - but that doesn't typically require surgery unless it's a compound fracture of some kind.
Seems more likely to involve some kind of relatively minor ligament or tendon repair, perhaps?

=====

I like the fact that McKie is taking all the time he needs to decide upon his starters and rotation. He's obviously letting the players compete for starting positions, although I expect Rose, NPL, Moorman, and probably Scott to start. If Scott doesn't start, maybe McKie's idea is to start games on low octane at tirst, and then amp up the voltage by bringing in spark plugs like Scott and Hamilton in off the bench.

It does seem like a good idea to have at least one spark plug guy off the bench. I'm guessing that will be one of Hamilton's virtues, since he's a potent scorer. Perry could be a spark plug, but he's been inconsistent and hit less than 30% FG3% last season, and may be more effective playing closer to the basket. Alani can be a spark plug to some extent. But when Dunn returns, he might be that guy in the back court.

Also like the fact that McKie is so cool about being willing to discuss his stance and body language on the coach - saying that he'll be seeking input from all his mentors and associates, and that it will sort itself out, but that most importantly, he's got to be himself out there. Somebody gave him some good guidance on that, I'm guessing.

I like the fact that he is strong, but open-minded. Confident without being arrogant, and very dedicated to this role he will be playing and to his team. He is a likable guy. I see just a wee bit of Coach Chaney in him, and that is a compliment.

=====

Even with Dunn out, I'm assuming there will be a 9 man rotation, with JPL being a potential 10th man when circumstances dictate (perhaps a few minutes of intense defense when NPL is on the bench).

He's got a lot of moving parts to work with. Almost every player, other than Damion, could play multiple positions. Perhaps switching specific player-position matchups will be an opportunity for this team to try to create mismatches.

I assume that you must agree that showing the exact same look every time down the floor is a recipe for failure in college basketball. Some stability is helpful at times, but the ability to move players in and out or from position to position can help win some games, as can moving players in to play a high pressure defense, or switching the whole team into a zone defense. Dunphy was better at all these things years back in his prime, but in recent years, the team could be so predictable on offense that it became tiresome to watch all too often, and opposing coaches could easily figure out how to exploit the lack of change to their advantage.

McKie's thinking seems to be much more fluid than his predecessor's was, and that could be very beneficial this season by jarring opponents and throwing them off kilter to adjust in mid-half.

I get what you mean about reducing 2 point jump shots to increase FG2%, although there will always be some of those when the clock ticks down without nobody else open.

Guys like Scott and Dunn and NPL seem to be pretty good jump shooters, though. Maybe give them the green light and tell the others to focus on 3 pt shots, dishes to big men, put-backs, and drives toward the basket. Will be interesting to see what unfolds.

You mentioned back-door passing and other tricky passing plays. Moorman, Scott, and Alani are good passers, and Rose can also make some spectacular passes. Building passing prowess in the other guys could make for a more deceptive offensive scheme, but perhaps this evolves in the early months of the season.
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2019 07:26 PM by jedclampett.)
10-14-2019 07:16 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-14-2019 11:20 AM)Miggy Wrote:  I’ve saved this separate space for Nate-Pierre Louise, one of my favorite Temple players.

Great summary of his development as a player.

I also noticed, last season, that he spent the first few months of season in the shadow of Alston and Rose, scoring ~14 ppg, but seemed to narrow that gap later in the season.

He also struggled through some tough first halfs, sometimes failing to score more than 1-2 points, then getting hot in the second half. Sometimes we won, and sometimes we lost those games. FD had no solution, with only one solid back up option in Alani, who also had to back up Alston or Rose. Not sure if Perry ever made a huge difference by playing in the back court to relieve NPL when he was shooting cold.

This coming season, it would be really helpful if Nate could score at least 5 or 6 points in the first half of almost every game. When he's not hitting, the team struggles to pull ahead.

Until Dunn returns, if Nate goes into a first half shooting slump, at least McKie will have two options - to insert Alani or JPL and give NPL a breather. He could also try playing Scott, Rose, and Perry (SG) as a temporary back court unit, which I'm not sure FD ever tried. Since Perry is a better 2 point shooter, perhaps he can make up for some of the interior scoring Temple usually relies on NPL to do. JPL can do the same, but I get the strong sense that his minutes will be strictly limited for some time while he develops.
10-14-2019 07:25 PM
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Miggy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-14-2019 07:25 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(10-14-2019 11:20 AM)Miggy Wrote:  I’ve saved this separate space for Nate-Pierre Louise, one of my favorite Temple players.

Great summary of his development as a player.

I also noticed, last season, that he spent the first few months of season in the shadow of Alston and Rose, scoring ~14 ppg, but seemed to narrow that gap later in the season.

He also struggled through some tough first halfs, sometimes failing to score more than 1-2 points, then getting hot in the second half. Sometimes we won, and sometimes we lost those games. FD had no solution, with only one solid back up option in Alani, who also had to back up Alston or Rose. Not sure if Perry ever made a huge difference by playing in the back court to relieve NPL when he was shooting cold.

This coming season, it would be really helpful if Nate could score at least 5 or 6 points in the first half of almost every game. When he's not hitting, the team struggles to pull ahead.

Until Dunn returns, if Nate goes into a first half shooting slump, at least McKie will have two options - to insert Alani or JPL and give NPL a breather. He could also try playing Scott, Rose, and Perry (SG) as a temporary back court unit, which I'm not sure FD ever tried. Since Perry is a better 2 point shooter, perhaps he can make up for some of the interior scoring Temple usually relies on NPL to do. JPL can do the same, but I get the strong sense that his minutes will be strictly limited for some time while he develops.


Most of NPL’s offense are drives to the hoop. Opponents defenses were constructed to stop his drives, but with his spin moves, he was more often successful getting and scoring at the hoop, than not.

Defenses gave him the outside 2-point jump shots that he shot at only 25 percent. He should not shot those shots.

If he can’r get to the hoop, or is not scoring, he should pass the ball to anyone who is making their shots. NPL only a few games where he kept shooting even when he was missing.

Rose and Alston were much worse by continuing to bomb away bomb away when they were missing. It’s up to HC McKie to demand that from NPL or any other player not shooting when they are missing fga’s. ..

Or McKie can leave NPL on the court, and instruct him to look to score only off fast breaks, and to concentrate on playing good defense.

Or McKie can sub-in either Scott Alani, Perry, or Dunn when he returns.

NPL has to look to see if there is a defender inside. Sometimes when he hasn’t shot in a while, he doesn’t do so, and he instead drives to the hoop and crashes or misses a contested shot.

NPL taking 10-11 shots is about right. If he’s on, he can shoot more. He’s been a very productive player on offense and defense.

But, I fear he will try to shoot more because Shizz Alston is gone. There is no need for him to carry the load as Temple has a plethora of good scorers.

HIs foul shooting percentage increased from his freshman year, and since he’s a hard worker, hopefully he will again this season.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2019 10:59 AM by Miggy.)
10-14-2019 10:46 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
Most of NPL’s offense are drives to the hoop. Opponents defenses were constructed to stop his drives, but with his spin moves, he was more often successful getting and scoring at the hoop, than not.

Defenses gave him the outside 2-point jump shots that he shot at 25 percent. He should not shot those shots.

If he can’r get to the hoop, or is not scoring, , he should pass the ball to Moorman, Hamilton, D.Moore, to anyone who is making their shots. NPL only a few games where he kept shooting even when he was missing..

Rose and Alston were much worse. That didn’t happen but in just Hopefully it wii. It’s up to HC McKie to demand that from NPL or any other player not shooting when they are missing fga’s. ..

Or McKie can leave NPL on the court,, and instruct him only to look to score off fast breaks, and to otherwise justo play good defense.

Or McKie can sub-in either Scott or Alani if either is not on the court, Perry, or Dunn when he returns.

NPL has to look to see if there is a defender inside. Sometimes when he hasn’t shot in a while, he instead drives to the hoop and crashes or misses a contested shot.

NPL taking 10-11 shots is about right. If he’s on, he can shoot more. He’s been a very productive player on offense and defense.

But, I fear he will try to shoot more because Shizz Alston is gone. There is no need for him to carry the load as Temple has a plethora of good scorers.

HIs foul shooting percentage increased from his freshman year, and hopefully he will again as he’s a very hard worker.
[/quote]

You make a lot of good points.

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, when the shot clock is running down or at critical moments, it might be most likely that Scott takes over, since he is able to hit from anywhere on the court. So I'm looking at Scott as the money guy.

Agree that Nate shouldn't take those 2 pt jump shots - except if he's got the ball with 2 seconds on the clock and has to shoot.

Rose, when healthy, can sometimes make the money plays, although his main contribution on offense is often to go on a 1 man scoring spree and score 6-9 points in a row, to either take back a lead or build a lead.

Have too often seen him miss shots at the most crucial moments.

So we may see Scott be the main man at crunch time, and I'm cool with that, because he has played that role with his prior team.

Maybe Dunn could also become that kind of player in the next year or two.

=====

This brings up another interesting question: What will the starting lineup be after Rose, Alani, & Damion are gone?

I'm thinking that the starters might be Scott, NPL, Dunn, J.P., & Justyn.

That's a pretty high octane offensive unit - I assume you'd agree.

Bench: Perry (Sr), Strickland (RS Soph), Forrester (RS Soph), JPL (Soph), White (Fr), Parks (RS Soph), plus two new recruits TBA.

That's a back-up unit with a lot of defensive skill. If McKie wants to, he can at times put an entire bench unit on the floor at times when he wants to shut down an opponent's scoring.
10-15-2019 02:41 AM
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Miggy Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
I must digress for a moment, as I’m very concerned about HC Mckie’s intention to put the ball more in Rose’s hands this year, and to have Rose both distribute the ball, and to shoot more this year, as it’s my view, both are a recipe’ for disaster, and Temple having the chance to have a very successful year.

Rose lacks both the ball-handling and decision-making skills necessary to distribute the ball. This is obvious from looking at his 2.6 turnovers per game in conference play ,especially since he was not Temple’s primary ball handler, Shizz Alston was.

Temple has many consistent shooters in Scott, Dunn, Moorman, D.Moore, Hamilton, and Alani.

I have more confidence going into the upcoming season, in them shooting the ball than Rose. But, more importantly, I want to see shots taken on merit not some pre-ordained script. Don’t want to see Rose ever again chilucking up shots overcand over again when he was missing shots. That happened in toonmany games last season.

If Rose is at the top of the ladder shooting consistently, than by all means, he should take Temple’s most shots. But, if not, let the distribution of shots be made on merit.

We don’t know which Rose will show-up this season. The Rose who shot three’s at 17 percent in non-conference games, or the Rose who shot 34.8 percent in conference games; or the Rose who shot 49 percent on two’s in non-conference games, or the Rose who shot 43 percent on two’s in conference games.

One only has to look at advance stats that show for the three years he has played, he had the lowest offense rating of any Temple player when he played. How can HC McKie ignore that? .

I personally think that Temple has in Nate, Scott, Moorman and Dunn, four players who are better right now, than Rose, ron both sides of the ball, with some others not that far behind, if behind. My view was fortified after watching all the Temple players who played both in the three games played in the Bahamas, and in the intra-squad scrimmages.

Given HC Mckie’s intention, I can only hope this a new day for Rose, and I’m proved to be wrong. But I saw nothing in Rose’s performance in both the Bahamas nor in Temple’s recent intra-,squad scrimmages to change my assessment of Rose.

Hopefully, Temple’s scrimmage against much-improved Georgetown will shed some light on the direction Temple is moving.
10-15-2019 11:56 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-15-2019 11:56 AM)Miggy Wrote:  I must digress for a moment, as I’m very concerned about HC Mckie’s intention to put the ball more in Rose’s hands this year, and to have Rose both distribute the ball, and to shoot more this year, as it’s my view, both are a recipe’ for disaster, and Temple having the chance to have a very successful year.

I agree that these are areas where McKie needs to improve, but I'm a little more optimistic, because I have been following him since his freshman year, and think I understand his growth trajectory in a way that makes me more sanguine about his development.

Rose started out as a potential superstar on the team, but had some what one might call some "attention deficit" issues, or some "needing to grow up" issues. Some combination of both, but mostly attention deficit, I believe, because he has always been serious and has gotten along well with teammates.

I don't want to say that he started out as somewhat of a "primmadonna," because that would be stigmatizing him, but he has always been a virtuoso who could single-handedly win games at the drop of a hat. But, like many creative people who are not known for consistency, he could play 15 minutes and be barely visible, before suddenly catching fire.

Rose is also a very youthful person, even for his age. He is bouncy, can be effervescent, perhaps a little tempestuous at times or feisty. I don't consider him immature, because that's too severe, but "youthful" and spunky individualist or free spirit comes closer.

Now, his attention does wander, and this can affect his judgment at times. He's impulsive and gifted enough to charge the basket with gusto, but perhaps the impulsiveness has gotten him into trouble, when he arrives at the basket and can't finish or crashes, burns, or turns the ball over.

Nevertheless, he has been gradually improving in these respects over time, more or less steadily, and he seems to know that he has to work on these things so as to help the team.

Part of growing up for all of us in our 20's is consuming some "humble pie" and learning that we're not the center of the world. Beyond that, each young person has the challenge of accepting their personal limitations. In basketball, the game forces a player to become more and more of a team player, thinking less of their own statistics and more about the team's.

I know that you've been very critical of him, because he seems like the kind of guy who shouldn't be making these mistakes so far into college, but you might be able to appreciate and understand him better if you consider him to be a "gifted and talented" student.

The term 'gifted and talented,' applies to students who give evidence of high achievement capability in areas such as intellectual, creative, artistic, or leadership capacity, or in specific academic fields. Often, gifted students have specific developmental challenges that they need to put work into or may need assistance with.

A classic example is a young person with attention issues, who is brilliant and incredibly talented in certain respects, and might even be considered a prodigy or a young genius, but can be limited by the attention problems (being distractable, impulsive, or drifting concentration). These limitations may be with the gifted student for their entire life, but they often learn how to overcome them or surmount these difficulties over time, sometimes with educational or medical assistance in some combination.

To me, QR fits this profile almost perfectly. He is the classic "gifted and talented" student. Like many others with these traits, he can be hard to understand or even frustrating to others at times, who ask "how can such a prodigy be such a klutz sometimes?"

=======

If you look at him this way, you may be able to both appreciate and empathize with him as he goes through his moments of brilliance and his periodic screwups.

He's growing up, and not the same way most people do, maybe a wee bit slower than some expect, but like most other "gifted and talented" people of all ages, he is a very special person and (in this case all-AAC first team pre-season) player.

I don't want to go into detail about my professional training, I'd like you to know that I've had advanced post-doctoral training in a closely related field, so I'm not making this stuff up. I know whereof I speak about this.


So, as frustrated and impatient as you have often been, and understandably so at times, as I've also been, I hope that you might realize that the turnovers and distracted focus or seeming spaced out at times are all part of what many gifted and talented students have to deal with.

They're not lazy or crazy or stupid. They're actually more like young Einsteins, who struggle because their brains are wired differently that most peoples are. Not worse, just different.

And, yes, you would have been just as frustrated and impatient with young Einstein himself, another classic "gifted student" who struggled with boring academic routines and was always quirky and a bit on the eccentric side. His brain was different. That's why he was so amazingly gifted in some areas.

It's not easy for gifted students, because in some ways, they're in a mental world that uniquely rises above most other peoples' capacity to understand in some specific ways, and in other ways can be seen as odd or lazy or eccentric & spaced out at times.

==========

Having said all this, I love the guy, not knowing him, only seeing him on the basketball court. I've known a lot of "gifted" people of various ages, and have developed a special appreciation for them.

I empathize with him, too. I know it's not easy, and sometimes must be incredibly frustrating to have not only his brilliance, but also his mistakes watched by thousands of people night after night. On the other hand, I never worry about him, because he's got the right amount of moxy to shrug off the occasional glitches and is smart enough not to get excessively bummed out. Got to maintain an even keel through it all.

I see him as having most of the tools that a great player like Julius Erving had. At times, he has been just as spectacular as Dr. J. was back in the day. It's too soon to know whether he will ever be able to make a NBA team or not. He'll have a lot of work to do to get there, if he's even capable of going that far. Maybe his attention issues or physical issues will get in the way.

But he'll have an interesting professional career somewhere in the world, I think one can bet on that.

Regardless of all that, I accept him for what he is, and knowing what kinds of unique struggles he has to deal with, I enjoy watching him develop as a player. The struggles are the same kinds of struggles that every one of us has to deal with in life, because none of us are good at everything, and most of us mess up sometimes, or crash and burn in our own ways.

========

Last and most encouraging point - This is going to be his most special year in college. He's first team pre-season all-AAC, and will be getting a lot of attention. It is his greatest chance to shine, perhaps that he'll ever get. He is a Senior, and a co-captain, and he is going to have to carry the team on his back to some extent, especially now that Shizz is gone.

This, in some ways, will be Quinton's team, just like last year was Alston's team in a lot of ways. So he almost certainly is going to temper his mistakes and play as responsibly as he can for the good of the team. Success depends on what he does, game in and game out; he's not a kid any more.

With responsibility comes development. Give a young person enough responsibility, and he will grow up. So I think that in some ways, we're going to see a new version of Quinton Rose out there on the court this year. Not a perfect version, but an improved version.

Passing the ball - yes it's a concern if there are too many off-target passes. But Rose was part of a unit that generated close to 15 assists per game last season, and when he is 100% "on," he is capable of making mind-dazzling passes. If he needs to make fewer passes, then McKie will definitely make needed adjustments; we can count on that.

To ease your mind on passing, just remember last season how Alston and Rose ran the offense together, and envision Scott taking on the role that Alston played. I think McKie will have Scott and Rose run the offense together this year. Few of Rose's errors on the court were due to errant passes. They were due to the crash and burn, charging fouls, losing control of the ball in traffic, being stripped of the ball, etc.
10-15-2019 06:01 PM
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RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
I personally think that Temple has in Nate, Scott, Moorman and Dunn, four players who are better right now, than Rose, ron both sides of the ball, with some others not that far behind, if behind. My view was fortified after watching all the Temple players who played both in the three games played in the Bahamas, and in the intra-squad scrimmages.
[/quote]

It's possible that you will turn out to be correct.

However, it's often hard to say which player is "better," because no two of them play the same position. Moorman may be a better PF, but Rose is a better wing, and Nate is the best defender and penetrator, and Scott may be the most effective passer and scorer.

They're all good. If Rose wasn't good, he wouldn't have been 2nd team all-AAC last season or first team this season.

I compare him to Mark Macon in a way, who you probably never saw play.

Macon was a McDonald's All-American 5 star player who came to John Chaney and asked Chaney if he could play at Temple. He won numerous accolades (player of year, etc.) and was one of Temple's all-time leading scorers.

However, statistically, Macon wasn't extremely impressive when it came to efficiency or FG%, at least in certain games when he would take 15 or 18 shots and only hit 5 or 6 of them.

The reason Macon was such an important player for Temple was that somebody needed to create his own shots on those teams, and Macon was the best shot creator. Few opponents could guard him successfully. He was just going to score 20-30 points a game, most games, and there wasn't anything anybody could do about it.

That's a little bit how Rose is. FG% isn't his strong suit, and having possession so much of the game, he's going to make some turnovers. But some teams need a Macon or a Rose to move beyond the ordinary. Macon made Temple extraordinary, almost single-handedly.

If a single player can do dazzling things and make the defense focus on him, he can help the team even if creating all those shots results in taking some ill-advised shots.

Every possession of the game, a team has to find a way to score. Having one athlete who can find a way to score when his teammates can't means that that player will put up a few clunkers, but at least his team got a shot off, and might get the rebound, which is sometimes better than not putting up any shots at all.

Maybe you don't agree. Sometimes, even I don't agree, because I often got frustrated when the ball kept going to Macon and a defending player was able to shut him down. But overall, without Macon, that team wouldn't have gone to the elite 8, and I believe that without Rose, this Temple team wouldn't be able to be as special as it might be able to be.

So that's what's great about Rose. He helps make the team great because he is unpredictable and hard to stop. There are extra pluses to his game that offset the occasional blunders. In most games, for every glitch, there is something spectacular.
10-15-2019 06:19 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
Temple opponents out roubounded Temple in conference games.

Rose was part of the problem as he did not rebound as well a NPL, Temple’s other wing. NPL played slightly less than Rose, averaged 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play, compared to Rose’s 3.8 rebounds per game playing 35.5 mpg.

Rose’s rebounding production actually declined from the year before when he played less minutes ( 30 mpg ), and garnered 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play.

This seems to indicate that Rose has been pacing himself, and HC McKie should consider lowering Rose’s playing time.

McKie has the additional option of subbing in for Rose, either Perry, Moorman, And Hamiton who are all better rebounders than Rose based on playing 40 mpg.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 07:56 AM by Miggy.)
10-15-2019 07:50 PM
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RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-15-2019 06:19 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  I personally think that Temple has in Nate, Scott, Moorman and Dunn, four players who are better right now than Rose. My view was fortified after watching all the Temple players who played both in the three games played in the Bahamas, and in the intra-squad scrimmages.

It's possible that you will turn out to be correct.

However, it's often hard to say which player is "better," because no two of them play the same position. Moorman may be a better PF, but Rose is a better wing, and Nate is the best defender and penetrator, and Scott may be the most effective passer and scorer.

They're all good. If Rose wasn't good, he wouldn't have been 2nd team all-AAC last season or first team this season.

I compare him to Mark Macon in a way, who you probably never saw play.

Macon was a McDonald's All-American 5 star player who came to John Chaney and asked Chaney if he could play at Temple. He won numerous accolades (player of year, etc.) and was one of Temple's all-time leading scorers.

However, statistically, Macon wasn't extremely impressive when it came to efficiency or FG%, at least in certain games when he would take 15 or 18 shots and only hit 5 or 6 of them.

The reason Macon was such an important player for Temple was that somebody needed to create his own shots on those teams, and Macon was the best shot creator. Few opponents could guard him successfully. He was just going to score 20-30 points a game, most games, and there wasn't anything anybody could do about it.

That's a little bit how Rose is. FG% isn't his strong suit, and having possession so much of the game, he's going to make some turnovers. But some teams need a Macon or a Rose to move beyond the ordinary. Macon made Temple extraordinary, almost single-handedly.

If a single player can do dazzling things and make the defense focus on him, he can help the team even if creating all those shots results in taking some ill-advised shots.

Every possession of the game, a team has to find a way to score. Having one athlete who can find a way to score when his teammates can't means that that player will put up a few clunkers, but at least his team got a shot off, and might get the rebound, which is sometimes better than not putting up any shots at all.

Maybe you don't agree. Sometimes, even I don't agree, because I often got frustrated when the ball kept going to Macon and a defending player was able to shut him down. But overall, without Macon, that team wouldn't have gone to the elite 8, and I believe that without Rose, this Temple team wouldn't be able to be as special as it might be able to be.

So that's what's great about Rose. He helps make the team great because he is unpredictable and hard to stop. There are extra pluses to his game that offset the occasional blunders. In most games, for every glitch, there is something spectacular.
[/quote]

Good points. I’ve had the honor and opportunity to meet Mark Macon a few times, and spoke to him in the Bahamas. A real gentleman. Your description of his play off the dribble is right in. Was a pleasure to watch.

However, do have to disagree with you on the comparison of Rose to Macon. As you pointed out, Macon was great taking his man off the dribble, stopping and shooting a jump shot.

Last season, Rose tried stopping and popping on about 35 percent of all his fga’s, and shot but 29.4 percent, shooting 52-177.See Bart Tovik rankings. He’d be better off going to the rim or shooting three’s.Believe he’s been informed of that.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 08:02 AM by Miggy.)
10-15-2019 08:38 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-15-2019 07:50 PM)Miggy Wrote:  Temple opponents out roubounded Temple in conference games.

Rose was part of the problem as he did not rebound as well a NPL l, Temple’s other wing. NPL playing slightly less than Rose, averaged 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play, compared to Rose’s 3.8 rebounds per game playing 35.5 mpg.

Rose’s rebounding production actually declined from the year before when he played less minutes ( 30 mpg ), and garnered 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play.

This seems to indicate that Rose has been pacing himself, and HC McKie should consider lowering Rose’s playing time.

McKie has the additional option of subbing in for Rose, either Perry, Moorman, And Hamiton who are all better rebounders than Rose based on playing 40 mpg.

Totally agree about Rose's rebounding. He has never been a strong rebounder, and this has clearly contributed to some losses.

In contrast, NPL is an amazing rebounder for a guard of his size. The contrast between him and Rose is incredible.

All I can think of is that NPL is more muscular than Rose. QR is very lean, and doesn't have the muscle mass in his upper body to bang with opposing forwards.

Even before his injury, when he could often penetrate to the basket area, he didn't show the grit to post up for rebounds.

Going back through Temple's history, Mark Karcher, too, was a high scorer and an abysmal rebounder, and it hurt the team then too.

It could be possible that FD instructed Rose not to risk injury by banging for rebounds, or that he wanted Rose to play on the perimeter except when driving to the hoop.

Only other thought is that perhaps Rose had a history of being injured going for rebounds and thus has to be cautious so that he can remain healthy enough to play a whole season.

Bottom line is that, with NPL over-rebounding for a guard, the Owls back court as a unit isn't the main rebounding problem.

As I see it, Hamilton is the guy who is the major cause of our rebounding deficit last year. Rose might be #2 on the lists. Damion, JP, and Perry all failed to get as many rebounds as the team needed them to.

But yes, especially if Rose wants to play in the NBA, this season is his best opportunity to show that he is an impressive all-around player. If there was any "prima-donna" tendency in the past, this is his chance to step up and be "the man."
10-15-2019 08:49 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-15-2019 08:49 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(10-15-2019 07:50 PM)Miggy Wrote:  Temple opponents out roubounded Temple in conference games.

Rose was part of the problem as he did not rebound as well a NPL l, Temple’s other wing. NPL playing slightly less than Rose, averaged 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play, compared to Rose’s 3.8 rebounds per game playing 35.5 mpg.

Rose’s rebounding production actually declined from the year before when he played less minutes ( 30 mpg ), and garnered 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play.

This seems to indicate that Rose has been pacing himself, and HC McKie should consider lowering Rose’s playing time.

McKie has the additional option of subbing in for Rose, either Perry, Moorman, And Hamiton who are all better rebounders than Rose based on playing 40 mpg.

Totally agree about Rose's rebounding. He has never been a strong rebounder, and this has clearly contributed to some losses.

In contrast, NPL is an amazing rebounder for a guard of his size. The contrast between him and Rose is incredible.

All I can think of is that NPL is more muscular than Rose. QR is very lean, and doesn't have the muscle mass in his upper body to bang with opposing forwards.

Even before his injury, when he could often penetrate to the basket area, he didn't show the grit to post up for rebounds.

Going back through Temple's history, Mark Karcher, too, was a high scorer and an abysmal rebounder, and it hurt the team then too.

It could be possible that FD instructed Rose not to risk injury by banging for rebounds, or that he wanted Rose to play on the perimeter except when driving to the hoop.

Only other thought is that perhaps Rose had a history of being injured going for rebounds and thus has to be cautious so that he can remain healthy enough to play a whole season.

Bottom line is that, with NPL over-rebounding for a guard, the Owls back court as a unit isn't the main rebounding problem.

As I see it, Hamilton is the guy who is the major cause of our rebounding deficit last year. Rose might be #2 on the lists. Damion, JP, and Perry all failed to get as many rebounds as the team needed them to.

But yes, especially if Rose wants to play in the NBA, this season is his best opportunity to show that he is an impressive all-around player. If there was any "prima-donna" tendency in the past, this is his chance to step up and be "the man."

Some players don’t like contact. Rose one of them. When opponent shots a a three, Rose doesn’t go to defensive boards. Just stands there.Mckie preaching rebounds.one reason he loves Dunn. Dunn loves mixing it up inside. Very good rebounder. Doesn’t look strong, but is. I think he’d give Temple better numbers than Rose.He’d shoot better on two’s without going to the rim. Hes not quick nor explosive, just has knack of knowing where to be on the court.Temple not likely to have a rebound deficit when he plays.

After a game, Nate’s dad looks at the stats sheet. First place he goes to is his son’s rebounds. Surprised? Let’s you know who in the house preached rebounds.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2019 09:56 PM by Miggy.)
10-15-2019 09:43 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
While I suggested in a previous post that it may be this season for Rose to play less minutes because his rebounding ell off, I may have been short-sighted in suggesting that. As Rose did certain things in conference play that suggests otherwise.

As there is no more important stat other than blocks, than steals. As each steal is one additional scoriing opportunity for a team they otherwise would not have had, and one less opportunity for the team that had the ball stolen from them. Steals are part of turnovers.

Other types of turnovers, as examples, are throwing the ball out of bounds, driving and running over a defender, and picking up an offensive foul.

Temple was the fourth best team in the conference in committing the fewest turnovers (203), and third best in the conference in opponents having the most turnovers (259).

So a team averaging 3 less turnovers than it’s opponents has six more scoring opportunities off of its three net turnovers per game. But, subtracted or added to that is the offensive rebounding margin between two teams in a given game.

A steal is equivalent to scoring swing of three-points off of one steal.

Temple was number one in the AAC conference in steals (155) and should be so again this year. Temple allowed the fourth lowest in steals (104) in the
conference.
Temple was ranked in 16th in the nation in steals per game, as Temple averaged 8.66 steals per game. Duke was no.3 averaging 9.47 steals per game.,Both should once again reach such rankings again in steals, here’s why.

In Q.Rose and NPL, Temple has returning to the top ball stealers in the conference, as Rose finished second in the conference in steals and NPL fifth in the conference. And they return as the 2nd and fourth best, as no.2, Memphis guard Jeremiah Martin has graduated.

Temple loses Shizz Alston, the AAC’s seventh best ball stealer, but is replaced James Scott, who was the fifth best ball stealer in the Asun conference when he played for KSU.

Scott averaged 2.17 steals per 40 minutes. That stat would have placed him of all returning AAC third in the ACC right behind Q. Rose, who had 2.45 steals per 40 minutes.

NPL, with 1.65 steals per 40 minutes ranks 5th best of all returning players in the AAC.

It should be noted that Rose, NPL and Scott all averaged playing over 30 mpg. Alani Moore, who averaged 14 mpg, averaged 2.4 steals on a 40 minute basis, right behind Q. Rose.

Freshman JPL will be a ball hawk as well in the limited minutes he will probably play, as well freshman D.Dunn when he is able to play.

So Temple on the defensive perimeter will be a force to be reckoned with. Especially with Temple knowing that it can averaging 6 extra net (after Temple’s turnovers are subtracted out) scoring opportunities per game in conference play, if Temple players should be able to steal the ball this season like they did last season. Maybe even more so, if Scott and Alani are sharing PG duties.No other team in the AAC conference is likely to come close to Temple in steals.

Temple was also no. 1 in the ACC, by limiting opponents to shooting only 29.6 percent on three-pointers, while Temple was third best in the AAC in three-point shooting percentage, at 35.3 percent in conference play.

The above is one indication that Temple has a terrific roster..
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2019 09:13 AM by Miggy.)
10-16-2019 06:59 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
Rose was part of the problem as he did not rebound as well a NPL l, Temple’s other wing. NPL playing slightly less than Rose, averaged 4.1 rebounds per game in conference play, compared to Rose’s 3.8 rebounds per game playing 35.5 mpg.

(quote)

The numbers break down differently when calculated per 40 minutes played.

Now, rather than comparing to NPL, let's compare him to Hamilton.

The results turn out to be a surprise to me:


Rose averaged 4.9 rebounds per 40 minutes. Hamilton averaged 5.9 rebounds per 40 minutes.

For a back court player, 5 rebounds per 40 minutes is generally considered par for the course.

For a front court player, 6 rebounds per 40 minutes is not considered high D1 level play.

So, the bottom line is that Rose hasn't been such a terrible rebounder, after all. Yes, he's not as good as NPL is as a rebounder, but he's about average for a back court player. You could argue that 4.9 rebounds in 40 minutes is low for a wing player, and I might agree with that, but most wing players do well to pull down more than 6 or 7 rebounds in 40 minutes.

But for a PF to only pull down 5.9 rebounds in 40 minutes is a major concern and limitation.

Bottom line is that Rose ought to get one more rebound per game, while Hamilton ought to bring down 2-3 more rebounds per game.

==========

We both agree that something has been wrong.

You've focused a bit more on player issues. I have focused more on coaching issues.

Player issues are always part of the game. It's easy enough to critique the players, but these guys are 18-22 years old, and perfection is unattainable. If they mess up, it's partly the coaches' responsibility to not have trained them better, or to have been a poor recruiter, or to give them playing time that they shouldn't have.

It is the coaches job to (a) recruit the right players, (b) to develop those players, © to deploy his players and rotate them so as to get the best bang for his buck, and (d) to game coach and make adjustments to help his players win as many games as they can.

If Rose didn't do certain things as well as others (or if Hamilton didn't, etc.), the coach shouldn't have put them on the court, or should have done a better job of developing and training them.

In the same way that you see gaps in Rose's game, I see gaps in Alani's and Hamilton's and really every player's game.

I saw FD do a much better of coaching than he did last season, and I know he was more capable at one time. All I can say is that he was coaching a couple years past his prime.

The only other thing I can think of to say is that some guys are scorers and not the best rebounders, for whatever reasons.

Some guys are finesse players, rather than physical players.

I'm much more worried about Hamilton's rebounding problem than Rose's, and I fear that he is a finesse player who avoids contact.

If true, then maybe Temple won't make it into the next two NCAA tournaments. In a lot of ways, Hamilton's ability to play near the basket may be the most important factor. It wouldn't be true if we had an abundance of bigs on the team, but we don't. Hamilton is the second tallest big on the team.

But I don't want to keep harping on Justyn's rebounding, other than to note that his rebounding hasn't impressed you either in the early pre-season scrimmages.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2019 08:20 PM by jedclampett.)
10-16-2019 08:03 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-16-2019 06:59 AM)Miggy Wrote:  While I suggested in a previous post that it may be this season for Rose to play less minutes because his rebounding ell off, I may have been short-sighted in suggesting that. As Rose did certain things in conference play that suggests otherwise.

The above is one indication that Temple has a terrific roster..

Your paragraphs on Temple's steals and turnover ratios are right on - I mean, I agree completely.

If you subtract Temple's rebounding deficit from Temple's surplus of possessions due to better ball control and more steals, I believe that Temple ended up in the black. I think you've pointed this out before, which is why the rebounding deficit didn't bother you as much as it did me.

All I can add is that - imagine if Temple didn't have a rebounding deficit - then Temple's superior ball control, perimeter defense, and steals would probably cause Temple to end up with a much higher scoring surplus per game.

Last season, Temple's average margin of victory was about 2.5 ppg, if I recall correctly.

Strip away the rebounding deficit, and Temple's average margin of victory would have been closer to 7.5 ppg.

Beyond that, if Temple had a 2.5 rebounding surplus, Temple could been an outstanding team, with an average margin of victory close to 10 ppg.

==========

So, yes, Temple's ball control, stealing, and turnover margin may once again save the team's bacon quite often this season. My only point is that Temple could be a great team if they can do that and rebound the ball about as well as their average competition this season.

Somebody (on the coaching staff) is going to have to do some serious motivating in order to get that done. BTW, when our guys were motivated enough, such as against Houston at home, there was no rebounding deficit.
10-16-2019 08:32 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
Thanks for you response, and expanding the discussion to include Temple’s winning the steal battle, and opponents winning the offensive rebounding battle over Temple last season in conference play.

In the morning, I’ll address Temple’s offensive rebounding, or lack thereof last season in conference play, and take a deep dive into the relationship between steals and offensive rebounds.

While each category provides teams with extra possessions and scoring opportunities, on closer examination, we shall see they are nowhere close to being of equal weight, as steals are much more valuable than offensive rebounds.

But even with that being said, your basic point of wanting to win every statistical category including offensive categories is right-on.

Later in the day, time permitting, I’ll take a look at the extensive, and in my view, unmatched firepower that exists throughout Temple’s roster.

For Temple fans, Owlscoop podcast has interesting interview with transfer James Scott.. It’s season 5, Episode 12.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2020 08:05 AM by Miggy.)
10-16-2019 10:40 PM
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RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
(10-16-2019 10:40 PM)Miggy Wrote:  Thanks for you response, and expanding the discussion to include Temple’s winning the steal battle, and opponents winning the offensive rebounding battle over Temple last season in conference play.

Basically, the total number of rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks, minus turnovers is more important than shooting stats, such as FG% and FT%.

The reason is that, as we many would agree, the # of possessions determine the number of points a team can score. Winning the possession battle is often key to winning a game, especially when also playing tight enough defense to reduce opponent's FG%.

Yes, controlling the ball, avoiding turnovers, and causing turnovers are huge factors, but being out-rebounded can negate those factors.

The fact that Owls had some good rebounding must-win games against teams like Houston and USF tells us that the problem wasn't that the Owl players couldn't rebound well. The problem was that too often, they didn't have the high motivation to rebound well.

Motivation was better last year than in previous seasons, but it was still too inconsistent.

I expect Aaron McKie to be a much better motivator, and to be more focused than FD was on maximizing possessions by not allowing rebounding to be a continuing problem.

I also expect him to work harder, because as he's said, he was always somewhat of a "gym rat," coming up through the years, and he showed incredible, but quiet toughness as a player.

Thus, my guess is that, under McKie, the possession advantage may increase significantly, compared to last season. If that happens, and if McKie develops the key game coaching skills, the team might be more successful than it was last season.
10-17-2019 01:00 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Temple men’s bb 2019-2020
p.s.

No one else has jumped into this thread yet, but congratulations!

This thread now has 580 views. So some folks are interested.
10-17-2019 01:02 AM
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