This appears to be counter-intuitive to official U.S. policy in the ME for a pretty long time. I always thought the U.S. had a national interest in keeping the Kurds a strong entity in the ME to counterbalance other factions. I really don't know if the Kurds are "stand up guys" or are of equivalent evil like the other factions except they are like minded to the U.S. regarding which factions need to be taken out. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-begins-..._lead_pos7

Quote:BEIRUT—Convoys of American military personnel began pulling back from the Syria-Turkey border, after President Trump ordered the Pentagon to clear the way for Ankara to launch an offensive against Kurdish fighters who spearheaded the U.S.-campaign against Islamic State.

Kurdish fighters have warned of all-out war with Turkey in northeastern Syria, where the U.S.-backed forces hold more than 70,000 Islamic State fighters and their families.

As the Turkish military prepared to enter Syria, and seize border areas from the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurdish-led group vowed to fight “at all costs.”

“We in the SDF will not hesitate for a moment to defend ourselves and we call on our people of all sects and ethnicities...to close ranks with their legitimate forces to defend our country against this Turkish aggression,” the group said in a statement.

Washington and Ankara have been trying for months to work out a deal to create a kind of buffer zone along the Turkey-Syria border. Negotiations faltered, prompting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to set the stage for a new military operation.

Mr. Trump’s decision upended U.S. efforts to broker a compromise that would avert a clash between Turkey and the Kurdish forces that Ankara views as a terrorist threat. It sent another signal that Mr. Trump has little appetite for an assertive American role in resolving intractable Middle East conflicts.

“For the U.S.’s regional allies, the lesson should be clear: This is a president and an administration that, in the breach, is not interested in fighting their battles for them,” said Sam Heller, a senior analyst for the International Crisis Group, a nonprofit that focuses on conflict prevention.

We’re making new friends and don’t need the Kurds anymore.

Lindsay Graham this morning in a series of tweets.

I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo. If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.

* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.

Also, if this plan goes forward will introduce Senate resolution opposing and asking for reversal of this decision. Expect it will receive strong bipartisan support.

(10-07-2019 07:13 AM)miko33 Wrote:  This appears to be counter-intuitive to official U.S. policy in the ME for a pretty long time. I always thought the U.S. had a national interest in keeping the Kurds a strong entity in the ME to counterbalance other factions. I really don't know if the Kurds are "stand up guys" or are of equivalent evil like the other factions except they are like minded to the U.S. regarding which factions need to be taken out. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-begins-..._lead_pos7

Quote:BEIRUT—Convoys of American military personnel began pulling back from the Syria-Turkey border, after President Trump ordered the Pentagon to clear the way for Ankara to launch an offensive against Kurdish fighters who spearheaded the U.S.-campaign against Islamic State.

Kurdish fighters have warned of all-out war with Turkey in northeastern Syria, where the U.S.-backed forces hold more than 70,000 Islamic State fighters and their families.

As the Turkish military prepared to enter Syria, and seize border areas from the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurdish-led group vowed to fight “at all costs.”

“We in the SDF will not hesitate for a moment to defend ourselves and we call on our people of all sects and ethnicities...to close ranks with their legitimate forces to defend our country against this Turkish aggression,” the group said in a statement.

Washington and Ankara have been trying for months to work out a deal to create a kind of buffer zone along the Turkey-Syria border. Negotiations faltered, prompting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to set the stage for a new military operation.

Mr. Trump’s decision upended U.S. efforts to broker a compromise that would avert a clash between Turkey and the Kurdish forces that Ankara views as a terrorist threat. It sent another signal that Mr. Trump has little appetite for an assertive American role in resolving intractable Middle East conflicts.

“For the U.S.’s regional allies, the lesson should be clear: This is a president and an administration that, in the breach, is not interested in fighting their battles for them,” said Sam Heller, a senior analyst for the International Crisis Group, a nonprofit that focuses on conflict prevention.

The Turks are our allies. And that relationship is fragile. The Kurds are connected to the terrorist Kurdish organizations in Turkey. And the Syrian Kurds are communists with a very different philosophy than the Kurds in Iraq.

I think its a mistake for Turkey and for us. Turkey is going to create chaos and refugees and more terrorism for themselves. And they are going to have to be in North Syria forever, or at least until Assad dies. It could start a civil war in Turkey.

(10-07-2019 07:43 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  We’re making new friends and don’t need the Kurds anymore.

Indeed komrade

(10-07-2019 07:56 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Lindsay Graham this morning in a series of tweets.

I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo. If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.

* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.

Also, if this plan goes forward will introduce Senate resolution opposing and asking for reversal of this decision. Expect it will receive strong bipartisan support.

so they can't take care of their backyard either, but we should take care of theirs...

#gotcha

I don't think this is a diplomatic decision at all.

It's a campaign promise.

We're not going to throw away our young troops fighting regional wars that do not impact us.

He said it. He meant it. Despite the reaction in D.C. and diplomatic circles, there are a lot of serving military, parents, and veterans that agree.

(10-07-2019 08:54 AM)Claw Wrote:  I don't think this is a diplomatic decision at all.

It's a campaign promise.

We're not going to throw away our young troops fighting regional wars that do not impact us.

He said it. He meant it. Despite the reaction in D.C. and diplomatic circles, there are a lot of serving military, parents, and veterans that agree.

sheeple love them some spoon fed bs...

I still don't know if we should have gone into Iraq, at least not until after all the bad guys in Afghanistan were dead. But if we had, then what we should have done after Saddam fell is to correct the errors made at San Remo and partition Iraq into three countries--Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west. This was actually Joe Biden's proposal (like a stopped watch, Crazy Joe may be right from time to time), which may explain why the neocons in the Bush administration were opposed. The dividing lines are pretty straightforward:



The stumbling block to Kurdistan was Turkey. But there was a solution. Back then, the EU was worth joining, and Turkey really wanted in. So give Schlumberger the Halliburton contract for Kurdistan, tell the French that this is the makeup call for what was done to them at San Remo, and it's their job to convince Turkey that Kurdistan is the price of EU membership. And besides, Turkey, to the extent your Kurds decide to be patriotic and relocate to "their" country, that solves a major problem for you.

I would have left at least some of the old Ba'athist power structure in place in Sunni Iraq. The elimination of that power structure was one thing that led to a lot of instability in postwar Iraq, and IMO ultimately to the rise of Daesh/ISIS. The Ba'athists were mean enough to keep things in check. My guess is that they would have allied with the Sunnis in eastern Syria, probably with a lot of Saudi support, and eventually would have taken a lot of eastern Syria away from Shia (Alawite) control.

I don't think there is a way to get there today. We have pretty much totally screwed the pooch in our handling of the region. Maybe it's time for us to quit screwing it up. If we pull out, things will deteriorate, I'm just not sure how far. As long as, "My brother and I will fight my cousin, my cousin and I will fight the world," remains the mantra, there is going to be instability. But maybe it's time to let China handle it--if they can. They're the ones who can't survive without the oil. If it distracts them as much as it has distracted us, that would be a good thing.

All the right neo-cons are mad this morning lol

Everyone pretends to want to end our involvement in these stupid foreign wars until someone actually does it.

(10-07-2019 08:01 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-07-2019 07:13 AM)miko33 Wrote:  This appears to be counter-intuitive to official U.S. policy in the ME for a pretty long time. I always thought the U.S. had a national interest in keeping the Kurds a strong entity in the ME to counterbalance other factions. I really don't know if the Kurds are "stand up guys" or are of equivalent evil like the other factions except they are like minded to the U.S. regarding which factions need to be taken out. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-begins-..._lead_pos7

Quote:BEIRUT—Convoys of American military personnel began pulling back from the Syria-Turkey border, after President Trump ordered the Pentagon to clear the way for Ankara to launch an offensive against Kurdish fighters who spearheaded the U.S.-campaign against Islamic State.

Kurdish fighters have warned of all-out war with Turkey in northeastern Syria, where the U.S.-backed forces hold more than 70,000 Islamic State fighters and their families.

As the Turkish military prepared to enter Syria, and seize border areas from the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurdish-led group vowed to fight “at all costs.”

“We in the SDF will not hesitate for a moment to defend ourselves and we call on our people of all sects and ethnicities...to close ranks with their legitimate forces to defend our country against this Turkish aggression,” the group said in a statement.

Washington and Ankara have been trying for months to work out a deal to create a kind of buffer zone along the Turkey-Syria border. Negotiations faltered, prompting Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to set the stage for a new military operation.

Mr. Trump’s decision upended U.S. efforts to broker a compromise that would avert a clash between Turkey and the Kurdish forces that Ankara views as a terrorist threat. It sent another signal that Mr. Trump has little appetite for an assertive American role in resolving intractable Middle East conflicts.

“For the U.S.’s regional allies, the lesson should be clear: This is a president and an administration that, in the breach, is not interested in fighting their battles for them,” said Sam Heller, a senior analyst for the International Crisis Group, a nonprofit that focuses on conflict prevention.

The Turks are our allies. And that relationship is fragile. The Kurds are connected to the terrorist Kurdish organizations in Turkey. And the Syrian Kurds are communists with a very different philosophy than the Kurds in Iraq.

I think its a mistake for Turkey and for us. Turkey is going to create chaos and refugees and more terrorism for themselves. And they are going to have to be in North Syria forever, or at least until Assad dies. It could start a civil war in Turkey.

Well the Turks were in Syria for 400 years until the 1920s. It was called the Ottoman Empire.

I think Erdogan has dreams of resurrecting the Ottoman Empire. It's well beyond his grasp, but I remember seeing several articles early in his reign that mentioned his outreach to Egypt was based on this dream.


I agree that the Syrian Kurds are nothing like the Iraqi Kurds.

BTW my nephew is in Turkey for the next 2 weeks (northern and western parts of the country - the bigger cities). I'm not thrilled about a possible civil war breaking out there while he's in that country.

(10-07-2019 07:43 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  We’re making new friends and don’t need the Kurds anymore.

Uhhhmmm....it’s a fight between two of our allies. That said, there are only 2 groups I think we should be loyal to the point of military action in the Middle East at this point—Israel and the Kurds. The Turks may be important, but they are poor allies. I’d keep my soldiers right where they are as a buffer to prevent Turkey from a attacking and to prevent Kurds from aiding Kurdish extremist inside Turkey. Build another wall and let Turkey pay for it if they are so concerned about terrorism from the Kurdish side of the border.

The problem I have is I’m largely on board with the idea of pulling back from all these far flung wars that have little to do with true American interests. While this move is consistent with that effort—I’m torn, because as I said earlier—It seems to me the Kurds are one of the few US allies in the Middle East that has clearly earned our loyalty and to whom, I believe we owe an obvious debt. Most everyone else in the Middle East owes us—I think it’s fairly obvious we owe the Kurds. While I largely agree with Trumps overall effort to reduce our involvement to overseas convicts, I hope someone convinces Trump to rethink this one. The Kurds have been loyal allies. We owe them our support in this stand off.

(10-07-2019 09:41 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  BTW my nephew is in Turkey for the next 2 weeks (northern and western parts of the country - the bigger cities). I'm not thrilled about a possible civil war breaking out there while he's in that country.

I empathize with your concern, but if it were to get close to that the first thing we do is extract, extract, extract.

(10-07-2019 08:54 AM)Claw Wrote:  I don't think this is a diplomatic decision at all.

It's a campaign promise.

We're not going to throw away our young troops fighting regional wars that do not impact us.

He said it. He meant it. Despite the reaction in D.C. and diplomatic circles, there are a lot of serving military, parents, and veterans that agree.

Here's a good analysis of that very fact.
The ‘Nightmare Scenario’ Has Happened and You’re to Blame

Of course knowing trump, it could just as easily be a personal financial decision.

Turkey is going to flip to the Iran side regardless what happens in Syria.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

DJT has to go....laughing stock of the world

(10-07-2019 07:56 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Lindsay Graham this morning in a series of tweets.

I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo. If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.

* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.

Also, if this plan goes forward will introduce Senate resolution opposing and asking for reversal of this decision. Expect it will receive strong bipartisan support.

A couple of points-
*ISIS is not coming back because Russia, Iran, and Syria will destroy any attempt to restart.
*Perhaps but that is neither good nor bad for the US especially if we are trying to get out of the middle East.
*Turkey has a crappy relationship with the West in general and it would continue to detioriate regardless of what we do.
*This is the only one I think we should actually be concerned about. But how much is our "honor" worth? Should we stay in the mid East forever to protect it?

As Claw said, I see this more as fulfilling a promise to extricate us from senseless Mideast wars.

(10-07-2019 11:55 AM)BobL Wrote:  Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

DJT has to go....laughing stock of the world

In case people don't believe this.

Keep telling yourself guys that this is a stable man of sound mind and body. Good Lord!

The fact that Tulsi has gone dark today tells me she isn’t a serious candidate.

She can’t put out a statement of support for Trump’s decision for fear of backlash from her party and how it would play for her fledgling campaign, but she is going to stand up to the military industrial complex? Lol doubt.