Which is why you don’t run the clock down before you snap it on first down. Snap it and run your play. If you pass, you can take the sack without needing a TO. If you complete it short, then you can run down some time before snapping it on second down. You can bleed the clock on second or third down. It doesn’t matter if they call TO. [/align]

I don't really have a problem with running the clock down. They didn't run out of time, even with what I think was improper sequencing of plays. If the 3rd down pass is incomplete instead of intercepted, you just kick the FG on 4th down and that ends the half. If you can't score a TD, that's the next best possible result. And running the clock down before 1st down means that if you score on that play, you give them 30 seconds less to play with before the half.

Picking up 3 points there, if the second half plays out the way it did, would have won the game in regulation. Of course, give Rice 3 points there and the second half would not ave played out exactly the same, but 3 points on the stroke of halftime in a close game, particularly since we get the ball to start the second half, is pretty big.

True.
But if you snapped the ball quick on first down, then a sack wouldn’t force you to take a TO after the first down. And that would mean you could still run on second and third down if you wanted. Letting the clock run down forced you to have to throw on third since you burned the TO after second down and you wanted to save the second TO for the FG.

(10-03-2019 10:50 PM)ruowls Wrote:  True.
But if you snapped the ball quick on first down, then a sack wouldn’t force you to take a TO after the first down. And that would mean you could still run on second and third down if you wanted. Letting the clock run down forced you to have to throw on third since you burned the TO after second down and you wanted to save the second TO for the FG.

All you need is one incomplete pass to save a TO. Just throw something that develops quickly and gets to the end zone, and throw it away if it is not there.

The TO after 1st down came at 0:23. You probably want to stop the clock about 0:30, either with a TO or an incomplete, but those 7 seconds still leave you plenty of time. The thing is, if you need to kick a FG, then you need an incomplete pass somewhere in the sequence so you can save a TO for the kick. If you score a TD, you don't really care about time, but once you're down under 30 seconds, even if you turn it over they don't have time to do much. We ran twice, so we burned our TOs. That pretty much meant we had to throw it in 3rd down, and that probably helped the defense get the pick. I would criticize the play selection--and even more so, the execution--way more than I would criticize the clock management. We really got exactly what you want from a clock management standpoint--time of the snap for the 4th play was 0:05. The problem is that they were snapping it, not us.

You're up 14-7. You'd like a TD. But a FG makes it a 2 score game, and you get the ball to start the second half. So you've got a real chance to turn the lights out if you can keep playing good defense.

The one thing you can't do is throw a pick. Which, of course, we did. You've got to have the mind set that you've got three, and whatever you do, you don't want to lose the FG.

(10-04-2019 05:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-03-2019 10:50 PM)ruowls Wrote:  True.
But if you snapped the ball quick on first down, then a sack wouldn’t force you to take a TO after the first down. And that would mean you could still run on second and third down if you wanted. Letting the clock run down forced you to have to throw on third since you burned the TO after second down and you wanted to save the second TO for the FG.

All you need is one incomplete pass to save a TO. Just throw something that develops quickly and gets to the end zone, and throw it away if it is not there.

The TO after 1st down came at 0:23. You probably want to stop the clock about 0:30, either with a TO or an incomplete, but those 7 seconds still leave you plenty of time. The thing is, if you need to kick a FG, then you need an incomplete pass somewhere in the sequence so you can save a TO for the kick. If you score a TD, you don't really care about time, but once you're down under 30 seconds, even if you turn it over they don't have time to do much. We ran twice, so we burned our TOs. That pretty much meant we had to throw it in 3rd down, and that probably helped the defense get the pick. I would criticize the play selection--and even more so, the execution--way more than I would criticize the clock management. We really got exactly what you want from a clock management standpoint--time of the snap for the 4th play was 0:05. The problem is that they were snapping it, not us.

You're up 14-7. You'd like a TD. But a FG makes it a 2 score game, and you get the ball to start the second half. So you've got a real chance to turn the lights out if you can keep playing good defense.

The one thing you can't do is throw a pick. Which, of course, we did. You've got to have the mind set that you've got three, and whatever you do, you don't want to lose the FG.

I somewhat agree.
You want to score. You have a 90+% of a FG if you don't mess it up. You want to have time to correct an unexpected error (a sack on first down if you tried to throw it which just makes it a running play). You can't get time back but you can bleed time if you want later. You can bleed off about 40 seconds by not snapping the ball and you could do it after 2nd or 3rd down. If you got sacked or ran on 1st, you would not have to call TO after the first play if you snapped it with 50 seconds instead of 30 seconds. You would not have needed an incomplete pass on third to stop the clock. You would have 2 TOs and 2nd and 3rd to do what you wanted. Also, if you fumbled or messed up the snap on 3rd down and fell on the ball without the TO, you would run out the clock and not score. So, you introduce a small chance of something bad that you can't recover from if you burn your TOs before 3rd down. The percentages of that happening are low. But, it adds another element to negatively impact your ability to score.
I also agree that lack of execution and lack of game awareness contributed to the failure.

You need a pass play on 1st or 2nd down that's either incomplete (saving you a TO) or a TD (in which case you don't care as much about the clock). You don't want a sack or a pick, so throw something that is either there or it isn't, and if it isn't then throw it away to live another day. You can handle a sack, as you not. You can't stand a pick. I would fault the run call on 1st down, and certainly the run again on 2nd down. Even with a pass, there's some prospect of a sack or completion short of the end zone, so you would need a TO then, so in that case you would want to throw on 2nd down too. I understand your point about snapping early, but if you do that and score, you kick off to them with still nearly a minute on the clock. And more than one Rice team has proved that is too much time. I think 30 seconds is plenty of time if you have two TOs and can throw an incomplete pass on 1st or second down. And once you are down to the point where a kickoff would come with under 30 seconds left, then barring a long kickoff return or some bizarre play (both of which Rice fans have seen) you pretty much can believe they are not going to score.

Frankly, if I had to take a TO after first down and my last one after 2nd down, say two sacks, I'd probably just let the clock run down, take my TO at 0:04, and kick the field goal on 3rd down. You go up 2 scores, you get the ball to start the 2nd half, and at that time you would have at least an opportunity to pretty much put the game away.

The larger point is that you work out these sequences well in advance, like April, May, or June. In your second and subsequent years, you just review the sequences you worked out last year and tweak or keep them. Then you practice them repeatedly on the field (not just walking through in meetings) so that everybody on the field knows exactly what to do. Until you are on the field, with a clock counting down, you really don't know what 10 seconds feels like.

Remember the execution of the game winning FG against UAB in 2006? After Dillard's catch, we picked up another first down. Out of TOs with 20 seconds left, we ran a run to the left, slid down, then reset in a hurry, spiked the ball, and made the FG. The following day, the Pittsburgh Steelers had virtually the same situation, and screwed it up royally and never got to attempt the FG. It's not incredibly difficult, but it's hard to get right without practicing.

(10-04-2019 01:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  You need a pass play on 1st or 2nd down that's either incomplete (saving you a TO) or a TD (in which case you don't care as much about the clock). You don't want a sack or a pick, so throw something that is either there or it isn't, and if it isn't then throw it away to live another day. You can handle a sack, as you not. You can't stand a pick. I would fault the run call on 1st down, and certainly the run again on 2nd down. Even with a pass, there's some prospect of a sack or completion short of the end zone, so you would need a TO then, so in that case you would want to throw on 2nd down too. I understand your point about snapping early, but if you do that and score, you kick off to them with still nearly a minute on the clock. And more than one Rice team has proved that is too much time. I think 30 seconds is plenty of time if you have two TOs and can throw an incomplete pass on 1st or second down. And once you are down to the point where a kickoff would come with under 30 seconds left, then barring a long kickoff return or some bizarre play (both of which Rice fans have seen) you pretty much can believe they are not going to score.

Frankly, if I had to take a TO after first down and my last one after 2nd down, say two sacks, I'd probably just let the clock run down, take my TO at 0:04, and kick the field goal on 3rd down. You go up 2 scores, you get the ball to start the 2nd half, and at that time you would have at least an opportunity to pretty much put the game away.

The larger point is that you work out these sequences well in advance, like April, May, or June. In your second and subsequent years, you just review the sequences you worked out last year and tweak or keep them. Then you practice them repeatedly on the field (not just walking through in meetings) so that everybody on the field knows exactly what to do. Until you are on the field, with a clock counting down, you really don't know what 10 seconds feels like.

Remember the execution of the game winning FG against UAB in 2006? After Dillard's catch, we picked up another first down. Out of TOs with 20 seconds left, we ran a run to the left, slid down, then reset in a hurry, spiked the ball, and made the FG. The following day, the Pittsburgh Steelers had virtually the same situation, and screwed it up royally and never got to attempt the FG. It's not incredibly difficult, but it's hard to get right without practicing.

I agree.
What I am trying to say is that I care more about scoring a TD than preventing them the opportunity to come back and score a TD. So, I choose to land on the side of preserving time to accomplish that goal.
I get what you are saying.
If I score a FG with no time left, I am up by 10 going into the second half and getting the ball. If I score a TD with little time left (the ideal scenario), I am up by 14. If I have a TO or missed FG, I am up by 7 and getting the ball. If I throw a pick 6, it is tied and I get the ball. If I score a TD with time left and they score a TD before the half (which is what bleeding the clock is trying to avoid but the TD for me isn't a given and I would trust my defense just a little), I am still up 7 and getting the ball. If I score a TD early and they come back and kick a FG then I am up 11 and getting the ball (up 2 scores with the possibility of going up 3). If I kick a FG early and they score a TD then I am up 3 and getting the ball.
Ideally you want to go up 3 scores with the next 2 drives and you have a high probability you will be up 2 scores at half. You could be up by 21 points in the second half fairly easily which is a big obstacle to overcome. Seize momentum and the game.
I also agree that this should all have been addressed and practiced at some point earlier.

(10-04-2019 02:17 PM)ruowls Wrote:  I agree.
What I am trying to say is that I care more about scoring a TD than preventing them the opportunity to come back and score a TD.

You're an offensive guy, so I understand. Never met an OC worth a damn who didn't think that way.

I don't care as much about the clock if I can get the TD, because if I get the TD, I figure that the chances are pretty good that I come out ahead even with a minute left. But by taking it down to 30 seconds, I pretty much guarantee myself time to run four plays (with two TOs and an incomplete pass) and also pretty much guarantee that the other team can't score anything.

What this situation really emphasizes is the importance of the period just before and just after halftime. We had the opportunity to get two scores without LaTech having an opportunity to do anything offensively, with the possession before the half plus receiving the second half kickoff. We got none, and lost the game in overtime.