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murray st to the mo valley?
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murray st to the mo valley?
they've earned an upgrade
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2019 01:32 AM by JRsec.)
10-03-2019 09:44 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley
And so did Southern Miss and Boise. That's not how these things work.
10-03-2019 11:12 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley
The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Murray’s president, AD, and twitter army fan base ran a huge campaign screaming to get in.

It’s one of those things where everybody wants it except the people who have the power (Valley commish/Presidents). And MVC leadership is let’s say...mentally handicapped.
10-03-2019 11:16 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.
10-03-2019 11:18 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley
Murray State have the stadium and good basketball. Why are the SBC invite them? They have good basketball and football that could get the Belt a boast. Puts them in a bigger spotlight than MVC.
10-03-2019 11:47 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-03-2019 11:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.

Exactly. I actually think that the MVC is an example where the university president focus on TV markets and academics actually worked out exactly how they wanted competitively and financially. The same MVC fans were calling for Murray State when the MVC was looking for replacements after Creighton defected to the Big East. Yet, the MVC presidents were focused on what we all here know are the critical factors for conference realignment: TV markets, demographics, academic prestige, etc. Many MVC fans at that time decried the ultimate choice of adding Loyola was one based on image and snobbery with a pie-in-the-sky wish for the Chicago market as opposed to the on-the-court product.

Yet, Loyola then making the Final Four several years later was worth *infinitely* more than any other single school than who the MVC could have ever realistically added. A Final Four school directly in the city of Chicago!! You can’t really get much better than that outside of the power conferences.

At the end of the day, is Murray State worth anything if they have zero wins? Do they bring a valuable TV market? Do they have a national brand that compensates for a smaller local market (such as Nebraska football or Gonzaga basketball)? Do they bring any academic prestige? Are they located in a key recruiting area (both for athletes and “regular” students)? If the answer is no, then they aren’t really valuable from a conference realignment perspective regardless of on-the-court performance.

The MVC presidents actually made exactly the right call several years ago when they ignored the short-sighted wishes of fans and then added Loyola. There’s a reason why they’re in charge instead of the fans.
10-04-2019 07:50 AM
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Post: #7
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
Murray St won’t get in unless a private school joins at the same time. Belmont is the ideal choice but they aren’t interested so no additions are going to happen.
10-04-2019 08:30 AM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-03-2019 11:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.

That is NoDak's MO: say it frequently and obnoxiously enough in as many forums as possible, and it will come true!
10-04-2019 08:53 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 07:50 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.

At the end of the day, is Murray State worth anything if they have zero wins? Do they bring a valuable TV market? Do they have a national brand that compensates for a smaller local market (such as Nebraska football or Gonzaga basketball)? Do they bring any academic prestige? Are they located in a key recruiting area (both for athletes and “regular” students)? If the answer is no, then they aren’t really valuable from a conference realignment perspective regardless of on-the-court performance.

The MVC presidents actually made exactly the right call several years ago when they ignored the short-sighted wishes of fans and then added Loyola. There’s a reason why they’re in charge instead of the fans.

Murray State has had winning seasons 32 of the last 33 years. They brought 10k fans to the OVC tournament, which was more than the 10 MVC teams brought to its tournament combined. Furthermore, Murray State has won games in the NCAA Tournament 3 of the past 10 years, would've added an extra bid in 2012, and has success spanning several coaches the last 20 years (Gottfried, Cronin, Kennedy, Prohm, McMahon). The MVC needs programs that help them attain top-10 status. Otherwise, they go from a league with 12 straight 1st round wins (would've happened with Murray on board) to a 15-seed one-and-done. The MVC absolutely needs Murray State for perception.

Their issue was never Loyola vs Murray or Valpo vs Murray. They wanted 11 teams and saw Murray as a can't-miss given where their league was heading. And after what happened last year -- they were right.

Murray not having a tv market is irrelevant. MVC isn't getting a good national tv deal no matter who's in the league. They have to focus on elevating exposure in the NCAA Tournament. Success in the NCAA Tournament is their only ticket.
10-04-2019 09:11 AM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
Indiana State beat writer interview with MVC commissioner

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_co...25151.html

Quote:Which brings to mind another issue that plays a role in scheduling — league expansion. There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

But it's not imminent.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

*When asked about Murray State, Elgin says they can't expand because they'd "lose our family atmosphere" and "get weird variance in schedule and sequences of games"

*Elgin says basketball is the priority in expansion

So yeah, MVC fans/media are justified in their frustrations. The league admits basketball is the basis for expansion but - upon coming off its worst season in league history - declares 11 teams undoable when several other leagues are able to do it.
10-04-2019 09:48 AM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 09:48 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Indiana State beat writer interview with MVC commissioner

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_co...25151.html

Quote:Which brings to mind another issue that plays a role in scheduling — league expansion. There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

But it's not imminent.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

*When asked about Murray State, Elgin says they can't expand because they'd "lose our family atmosphere" and "get weird variance in schedule and sequences of games"

*Elgin says basketball is the priority in expansion

So yeah, MVC fans/media are justified in their frustrations. The league admits basketball is the basis for expansion but - upon coming off its worst season in league history - declares 11 teams undoable when several other leagues are able to do it.

And the real message from the presidents and ADs is that they see no reason to bring in a team that is likely to give them losses unless they offer a substantial boost in market, recruiting and exposure. The son't see Murray as giving them those perks.
10-04-2019 10:01 AM
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Post: #12
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 07:50 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.

Exactly. I actually think that the MVC is an example where the university president focus on TV markets and academics actually worked out exactly how they wanted competitively and financially. The same MVC fans were calling for Murray State when the MVC was looking for replacements after Creighton defected to the Big East. Yet, the MVC presidents were focused on what we all here know are the critical factors for conference realignment: TV markets, demographics, academic prestige, etc. Many MVC fans at that time decried the ultimate choice of adding Loyola was one based on image and snobbery with a pie-in-the-sky wish for the Chicago market as opposed to the on-the-court product.

Yet, Loyola then making the Final Four several years later was worth *infinitely* more than any other single school than who the MVC could have ever realistically added. A Final Four school directly in the city of Chicago!! You can’t really get much better than that outside of the power conferences.

At the end of the day, is Murray State worth anything if they have zero wins? Do they bring a valuable TV market? Do they have a national brand that compensates for a smaller local market (such as Nebraska football or Gonzaga basketball)? Do they bring any academic prestige? Are they located in a key recruiting area (both for athletes and “regular” students)? If the answer is no, then they aren’t really valuable from a conference realignment perspective regardless of on-the-court performance.

The MVC presidents actually made exactly the right call several years ago when they ignored the short-sighted wishes of fans and then added Loyola. There’s a reason why they’re in charge instead of the fans.

Kentucky is a good recruiting area. And they won't have zero wins.

I thought Marshall was a bad choice for the MAC when they were added for the same reasons you discuss above, along with the possibility that Marshall would recruit the same area as the existing MAC schools, thinning out talent. I thought they should have combined Buffalo with Northern Illinois at the time. Turns out Marshall to the MAC was one of the best conference moves made over the last 25 years. It put the MAC back on the map.

Loyola had a history, even if it was a ways back. Murray is a better choice than Cleveland St. or Robert Morris or Detroit because they have a tradition of winning and good fan support. Doesn't matter that they are closer to Monkey's Eyebrow, Kentucky than they are to any skyscrapers.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2019 10:36 AM by bullet.)
10-04-2019 10:35 AM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 10:01 AM)NotANewbie Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 09:48 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Indiana State beat writer interview with MVC commissioner

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_co...25151.html

Quote:Which brings to mind another issue that plays a role in scheduling — league expansion. There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

But it's not imminent.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

*When asked about Murray State, Elgin says they can't expand because they'd "lose our family atmosphere" and "get weird variance in schedule and sequences of games"

*Elgin says basketball is the priority in expansion

So yeah, MVC fans/media are justified in their frustrations. The league admits basketball is the basis for expansion but - upon coming off its worst season in league history - declares 11 teams undoable when several other leagues are able to do it.

And the real message from the presidents and ADs is that they see no reason to bring in a team that is likely to give them losses unless they offer a substantial boost in market, recruiting and exposure. The son't see Murray as giving them those perks.

So, in other words, Detroit's in.
10-04-2019 07:26 PM
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templefootballfan Online
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Post: #14
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
They needed Murray St to protect there conf tourn in St Lious
10-04-2019 07:48 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
Should have been the choice instead of Valpo. 11 sucks for men's basketball scheduling wise because of several reasons - main one is the MVC doesn't have the extra week because of the contract with CBS for the MVC tournament championship game. Condenses the schedule to 10 weeks instead of 11. Bradley and Evansville play off campus thus dates are harder as well. TV partners with Fox Sports Midwest, CBSN, and ESPN that play MVC games on set dates. Then one of the big reasons is the officials, we have the same quality as the Big 12 and Big Ten and on the same rotation for them. Granted all scheduling is just put in the computer and pop a schedule, that isn't a problem there are other reasons that I said above. That is coming from MVC officials and schools.

Biggest problem is the MVC just needs to get certain schools to be better (my school is one of them and we should be this year)
10-04-2019 10:57 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 07:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 10:01 AM)NotANewbie Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 09:48 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Indiana State beat writer interview with MVC commissioner

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_co...25151.html

Quote:Which brings to mind another issue that plays a role in scheduling — league expansion. There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

But it's not imminent.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

*When asked about Murray State, Elgin says they can't expand because they'd "lose our family atmosphere" and "get weird variance in schedule and sequences of games"

*Elgin says basketball is the priority in expansion

So yeah, MVC fans/media are justified in their frustrations. The league admits basketball is the basis for expansion but - upon coming off its worst season in league history - declares 11 teams undoable when several other leagues are able to do it.

And the real message from the presidents and ADs is that they see no reason to bring in a team that is likely to give them losses unless they offer a substantial boost in market, recruiting and exposure. The son't see Murray as giving them those perks.

So, in other words, Detroit's in.

Yep, that's the Elgin way.
10-05-2019 09:24 PM
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Post: #17
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-04-2019 09:11 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 07:50 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 11:16 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The MVCFans board had 106-pg and 69-pg threads of people yelling for it.

Whether it's right or wrong in this case, it would be perilous or worse for any conference's leadership to just take direction from message boards, or Twitter, or whatever.

At the end of the day, is Murray State worth anything if they have zero wins? Do they bring a valuable TV market? Do they have a national brand that compensates for a smaller local market (such as Nebraska football or Gonzaga basketball)? Do they bring any academic prestige? Are they located in a key recruiting area (both for athletes and “regular” students)? If the answer is no, then they aren’t really valuable from a conference realignment perspective regardless of on-the-court performance.

The MVC presidents actually made exactly the right call several years ago when they ignored the short-sighted wishes of fans and then added Loyola. There’s a reason why they’re in charge instead of the fans.

Murray State has had winning seasons 32 of the last 33 years. They brought 10k fans to the OVC tournament, which was more than the 10 MVC teams brought to its tournament combined. Furthermore, Murray State has won games in the NCAA Tournament 3 of the past 10 years, would've added an extra bid in 2012, and has success spanning several coaches the last 20 years (Gottfried, Cronin, Kennedy, Prohm, McMahon). The MVC needs programs that help them attain top-10 status. Otherwise, they go from a league with 12 straight 1st round wins (would've happened with Murray on board) to a 15-seed one-and-done. The MVC absolutely needs Murray State for perception.

Their issue was never Loyola vs Murray or Valpo vs Murray. They wanted 11 teams and saw Murray as a can't-miss given where their league was heading. And after what happened last year -- they were right.

Murray not having a tv market is irrelevant. MVC isn't getting a good national tv deal no matter who's in the league. They have to focus on elevating exposure in the NCAA Tournament. Success in the NCAA Tournament is their only ticket.
Yep. At the end of the day what the MVC should strive for is getting back to being a multi-bid league. Loyola was lightning in a bottle; there was a reason why they were such a great story, because things like that hardly ever happen. No one saw the coming when they added them, they were wondering why the MVC decided to go with a Forever .500 that had a good market over another school. Valpo's another so-so program that adds nothing when it comes to their prestige. The MVC needs a Murray State to get back to where it was, an outlier of sorts that can win and lift the prestige of the rest of the conference up with them. If the attitude is "They might beat our teams too much," then that's the thinking of a one-bid league and Elgin's resigned his conference to functionally being a peer of the Horizon.
10-05-2019 11:31 PM
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RE: murray st to the mo valley?
(10-05-2019 09:24 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 07:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 10:01 AM)NotANewbie Wrote:  
(10-04-2019 09:48 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Indiana State beat writer interview with MVC commissioner

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_co...25151.html

Quote:Which brings to mind another issue that plays a role in scheduling — league expansion. There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

But it's not imminent.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

*When asked about Murray State, Elgin says they can't expand because they'd "lose our family atmosphere" and "get weird variance in schedule and sequences of games"

*Elgin says basketball is the priority in expansion

So yeah, MVC fans/media are justified in their frustrations. The league admits basketball is the basis for expansion but - upon coming off its worst season in league history - declares 11 teams undoable when several other leagues are able to do it.

And the real message from the presidents and ADs is that they see no reason to bring in a team that is likely to give them losses unless they offer a substantial boost in market, recruiting and exposure. The son't see Murray as giving them those perks.

So, in other words, Detroit's in.

Yep, that's the Elgin way.

Him and the shriveling private schools for sure. If anyone expects Murray State in the Valley, expect it to be, at best, alongside another private member. At worst, Murray is going to be waiting some time, and I suspect some schools will simply overlook them and reach for both Detroit and Belmont. And who knows with Bellarmine sitting in another basketball mecca city given Elgin logic.

The conference is not going to expand just for Murray State.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2019 08:31 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
10-06-2019 08:29 AM
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templefootballfan Online
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Post: #19
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
Marshall is great analogy, MAC had to step up or get steamrolled.
If President know so much about TV markets, why are 7 schools in 2 states
Valpo TV market is South Bend, not exactly must have
Conn joining BE, time to start working on Dayton & St Louis, A-10 another sinking ship
Milwaukee & Murray St extends ft print makes tourn tough ticket
I thought UMKC would help MVC, that ship sailed with Valpo
10-07-2019 04:12 AM
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Post: #20
RE: murray st to the mo valley?
I think that the football schools are not happy with the non-football schools. They have a longer time in the conference then any of the privates who are recent adds. They want to add more football schools, but they are being blocked. MVFC schools should have an airport meeting with Murray State and formed a conference for all sports under the MVFC banner with a new name. It would not be a new conference per-say, but it would give the football schools more of a security then they have now. If Drake wants to stay with them? They have to add scholarships for football. Then the private schools will have the choice to call in a 10 to 12 school conference with privates like Bellarmine, Detroit, Oral Roberts, St. Thomas, St. Louis, Dayton, Drury, Indianapolis (football in Pioneer), and etc.
10-07-2019 02:35 PM
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