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Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
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Owlman49 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(12-02-2019 04:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  In fairness, I think a decent number of us ARE former players... many of whom won less frequently than some of our recent players... and yet we still see ways that the University and/or those put in charge of them have failed THEM.

Most of these complaints are because the players either can't complain... or because they are too close/lack the longer-term perspective to know how.

I guarantee these guys aren't satisfied with their record or performance.

These guys ARE Rice guys, and thus 'winners', no matter the score. Rice athletes RARELY peak in College.

+1
12-02-2019 06:27 PM
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75src Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
Cubs won the World Series in 2016.

(10-02-2019 08:48 PM)OldOwl Wrote:  Rice Owl fans would make good Chicago Cub fans.
12-03-2019 01:12 AM
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Seventyniner Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
It might not be popular or exciting, but dammit, it worked. Bring back the triple option. While Rice isn't a service academy, they have the same disconnect between the players they are able and willing to get and the rest of college football, without the big-conference resources. Having that offense that opponents don't have time to meticulously plan against is worth at least a win or two per season imo. It also dovetails perfectly with a strong defense.
12-04-2019 10:52 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(12-04-2019 10:52 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  It might not be popular or exciting, but dammit, it worked. Bring back the triple option. While Rice isn't a service academy, they have the same disconnect between the players they are able and willing to get and the rest of college football, without the big-conference resources. Having that offense that opponents don't have time to meticulously plan against is worth at least a win or two per season imo. It also dovetails perfectly with a strong defense.

No. Anyone with a week off ahead of time will stop it. Also, if you're behind in the 4th quarter by more than a touchdown, you lose.
Yesterday 01:30 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 01:30 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:52 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  It might not be popular or exciting, but dammit, it worked. Bring back the triple option. While Rice isn't a service academy, they have the same disconnect between the players they are able and willing to get and the rest of college football, without the big-conference resources. Having that offense that opponents don't have time to meticulously plan against is worth at least a win or two per season imo. It also dovetails perfectly with a strong defense.
No. Anyone with a week off ahead of time will stop it. Also, if you're behind in the 4th quarter by more than a touchdown, you lose.

Not everyone with a week off will stop it. On the other hand, even good defenses without a week off struggle to stop it. And if you choose your offense based upon being behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter, aren't you admitting defeat up front? In that situation, most offenses lose. Shouldn't the objective be not to fall behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter? And the flexbone has some advantages tat can help with that.

You have identified potential problems, without addressing potential advantages. For one thing, it operates with guys who are just athletes, rather than specialists. The big, often slow, pass protecting linemen, and the drop-back quarterbacks that are essential to a more pass-oriented attack generally cannot play anywhere else, whereas a lot of guys recruited for the option can play several on either side of the ball. For another, those linemen and quarterbacks are in heavy demand at P5 schools, while we have a much better shot at recruiting option types--smaller, more mobile o-linemen (who cam move to the defensive side of the ball if needed) and the kind of QB who is a good athlete, but TexasU tells him, "Come here and we'll make you a safety" (so obviously he can move there if you need him there). We can recruit a lot of d-linemen who can move over to the other side of the ball if needed there; Fred did a lot of this with a different offensive scheme, but he learned to do it coaching in Hatfield's flexbone system . These advantages regarding recruiting and flexibility/depth are IMO why it works well for the academies, and Rice has very similar limitations.

As you should know, I'm not a fan of pure wishbone or flexbone. I prefer something like the Erk Russell/Bob Wagner/Paul Johnson combination of option running game and run-and-shoot (or plug in the Air Raid or Ruowls's West Coast) passing scheme. The only way to stop our passing game is to let us run wild. The knock is that the two systems are supposedly too hard to combine, but Georgia Southern with Tracy Ham and Hawaii with Garrett Gabriel and Ivin Jasper ran it pretty effectively, and I doubt that either Hawaii or Georgia Southern had smarter players than we do.

It seems to me that you are citing issues that maybe--maybe--arise 20% of the time, and can be dealt with if they do, when there are offsetting plusses 80% of the time.
Yesterday 02:11 AM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
The most idiotic argument ever for using the triple option (when faced with the reality of hopelessness when trailing by multiple scores late in a game): don't fall behind!

Wow - why doesn't every coach use that helpful idea?
Yesterday 03:22 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 03:22 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The most idiotic argument ever for using the triple option (when faced with the reality of hopelessness when trailing by multiple scores late in a game): don't fall behind!
Wow - why doesn't every coach use that helpful idea?

Way to misstate my point. Beyond that, I'm simply not going to respond.
Yesterday 05:38 AM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #28
Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 05:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(Yesterday 03:22 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The most idiotic argument ever for using the triple option (when faced with the reality of hopelessness when trailing by multiple scores late in a game): don't fall behind!
Wow - why doesn't every coach use that helpful idea?

Way to misstate my point. Beyond that, I'm simply not going to respond.


I’ll respond (albeit flippantly)...

The problem with a pass-based offense is that it is *impossible* to protect a lead by running out the clock
Yesterday 05:51 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 01:30 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:52 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  It might not be popular or exciting, but dammit, it worked. Bring back the triple option. While Rice isn't a service academy, they have the same disconnect between the players they are able and willing to get and the rest of college football, without the big-conference resources. Having that offense that opponents don't have time to meticulously plan against is worth at least a win or two per season imo. It also dovetails perfectly with a strong defense.
No. Anyone with a week off ahead of time will stop it. Also, if you're behind in the 4th quarter by more than a touchdown, you lose.

Pray tell, when you are behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter, what offense doesn't lose the vast majority of the time?
Yesterday 07:41 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 03:22 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The most idiotic argument ever for using the triple option (when faced with the reality of hopelessness when trailing by multiple scores late in a game): don't fall behind!

Wow - why doesn't every coach use that helpful idea?

I think every coach tries that.
Yesterday 12:19 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Encouragement, Encouragement, Encouragement
(Yesterday 02:11 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(Yesterday 01:30 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 10:52 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  It might not be popular or exciting, but dammit, it worked. Bring back the triple option. While Rice isn't a service academy, they have the same disconnect between the players they are able and willing to get and the rest of college football, without the big-conference resources. Having that offense that opponents don't have time to meticulously plan against is worth at least a win or two per season imo. It also dovetails perfectly with a strong defense.
No. Anyone with a week off ahead of time will stop it. Also, if you're behind in the 4th quarter by more than a touchdown, you lose.

Not everyone with a week off will stop it. On the other hand, even good defenses without a week off struggle to stop it. And if you choose your offense based upon being behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter, aren't you admitting defeat up front? In that situation, most offenses lose. Shouldn't the objective be not to fall behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter? And the flexbone has some advantages tat can help with that.

You have identified potential problems, without addressing potential advantages. For one thing, it operates with guys who are just athletes, rather than specialists. The big, often slow, pass protecting linemen, and the drop-back quarterbacks that are essential to a more pass-oriented attack generally cannot play anywhere else, whereas a lot of guys recruited for the option can play several on either side of the ball. For another, those linemen and quarterbacks are in heavy demand at P5 schools, while we have a much better shot at recruiting option types--smaller, more mobile o-linemen (who cam move to the defensive side of the ball if needed) and the kind of QB who is a good athlete, but TexasU tells him, "Come here and we'll make you a safety" (so obviously he can move there if you need him there). We can recruit a lot of d-linemen who can move over to the other side of the ball if needed there; Fred did a lot of this with a different offensive scheme, but he learned to do it coaching in Hatfield's flexbone system . These advantages regarding recruiting and flexibility/depth are IMO why it works well for the academies, and Rice has very similar limitations.

As you should know, I'm not a fan of pure wishbone or flexbone. I prefer something like the Erk Russell/Bob Wagner/Paul Johnson combination of option running game and run-and-shoot (or plug in the Air Raid or Ruowls's West Coast) passing scheme. The only way to stop our passing game is to let us run wild. The knock is that the two systems are supposedly too hard to combine, but Georgia Southern with Tracy Ham and Hawaii with Garrett Gabriel and Ivin Jasper ran it pretty effectively, and I doubt that either Hawaii or Georgia Southern had smarter players than we do.

It seems to me that you are citing issues that maybe--maybe--arise 20% of the time, and can be dealt with if they do, when there are offsetting plusses 80% of the time.

Obviously, the primary goal of any offense is to score. However, a secondary goal, and a very important goal, is to control the game. What you really want is diversity to adapt to the situation. You want to utilize the run and the pass to create diversity and control the game. PTRCTC is a means to control the game as is the flexbone. However, these lack diversity that you may need at some point in the accomplish the goal of controlling the game and scoring. Running has the advantage of running time off the clock but lacks the greater likelihood of chunk plays. Passing has a greater likelihood of chunk plays but lacks the clock bleed you may want because first downs (a common occurrence with chunk plays) and incomplete passes stop the clock. Therefore, what you really want to do is use the pass and threat of the pass to change the defensive front to stop the pass which makes the run more advantageous and lets you control the clock.
Chunk plays and the ability to make chunk plays when you need them is the ultimate necessity. That lets you control the clock and the game and increases the efficiency of your possessions.
So, teaching your players how to make chunk plays is the primary focus. And this is teaching your players the dynamics of a defense and how you exploit these dynamics to your favor. As you can see, this is not exclusive to any "offensive system". Diversity and teaching the players how to recognize and manipulate the inherent weaknesses of the defense is much more important than teaching plays or running a scheme. Because that helps to increase the ability to create chunk plays rather than guessing what play will work against the defensive call on any given play.
Yesterday 01:03 PM
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