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nogretheogre Offline
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College Athletes Getting Paid
Expect California schools to immediately get a bump in high-level recruiting, which should be the impetus for it to be adopted nationwide...influential alums of P5 schools are not scarce in their respective state congressional representation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/sport/cal...index.html
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2019 10:46 AM by nogretheogre.)
09-30-2019 10:45 AM
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3xTribe Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(09-30-2019 10:45 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Expect California schools to immediately get a bump in high-level recruiting, which should be the impetus for it to be adopted nationwide...influential alums of P5 schools are not scarce in their respective state congressional representation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/sport/cal...index.html

I don't know about an immediate bump, as the legislation doesn't take effect until 2023. This gives the NCAA plenty of time to react (at the point of a gun, perhaps) in a way that would limit the advantage enjoyed by California schools. In the spirit of federalism, it's anybody's guess how other states will react.
09-30-2019 11:17 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(09-30-2019 11:17 AM)3xTribe Wrote:  
(09-30-2019 10:45 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Expect California schools to immediately get a bump in high-level recruiting, which should be the impetus for it to be adopted nationwide...influential alums of P5 schools are not scarce in their respective state congressional representation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/sport/cal...index.html

I don't know about an immediate bump, as the legislation doesn't take effect until 2023. This gives the NCAA plenty of time to react (at the point of a gun, perhaps) in a way that would limit the advantage enjoyed by California schools. In the spirit of federalism, it's anybody's guess how other states will react.

NCAA and action? Expeditious action at that? What planet?
09-30-2019 11:31 AM
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3xTribe Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(09-30-2019 11:31 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  
(09-30-2019 11:17 AM)3xTribe Wrote:  
(09-30-2019 10:45 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Expect California schools to immediately get a bump in high-level recruiting, which should be the impetus for it to be adopted nationwide...influential alums of P5 schools are not scarce in their respective state congressional representation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/sport/cal...index.html

I don't know about an immediate bump, as the legislation doesn't take effect until 2023. This gives the NCAA plenty of time to react (at the point of a gun, perhaps) in a way that would limit the advantage enjoyed by California schools. In the spirit of federalism, it's anybody's guess how other states will react.

NCAA and action? Expeditious action at that? What planet?

"Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." Samuel Johnson
09-30-2019 11:40 AM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
College players have been paid for years. I saw cash being exchanged routinely after games at Wm&Mary. Not just the stars, everybody got paid for their tickets. Almost sixty years ago.
Today’s players at big schools enjoy fabulous benefits. COA opened the barn doors. It’s reality; get used to it. What’s more, they deserve it.
10-01-2019 09:28 AM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
Long overdue.
10-01-2019 10:10 AM
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Sitting bull Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2019 12:14 PM by Sitting bull.)
10-01-2019 12:12 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.

While it’s not the most important issue at stake here, what stuff like this hurts the most is programs like ODU, Liberty, JMU, etc who have dreams (delusions?) of making it to the big boy level in football. This is going to leave them caught in the middle and with no shot at catching up. If you’re both lacking tradition and a rabid fan base AND a major media market, it’s going to make high level recruiting pretty much impossible. Can’t imagine JMU goes FBS now in the wake of this.
10-01-2019 12:35 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
This is going to get tricky very quickly. I'll give two examples. Penn State - makes complete sense to focus on football.....do you pay the basketball team knowing that you don't funnel anyone to the NBA? Villanova - opposite of Penn State.

I think what will eventually emerge is an elite league for football, maybe sponsored by Nike or Underarmor. I would think more like 40 schools, but I could see up to 60. Everyone else is FCS.

In basketball, I don't really see the value proposition to the colleges. Paying kids to play a year isn't a good investment in the long run especially when you have to pay 12-15 knowing that only a couple/few are NBA prospects. I see a true minor league system in the NBA as the more likely outcome. If that really emerges you will see almost nobody going to college as one and done's. Much more beneficial for both the players and NBA to simply start to play and get coached full time.

Of course their is that part about participation in football declining in the youth leagues. I know it sounds crazy, but I could see the NFL out of business 25 years from now due to liability claims from their employees.
10-01-2019 12:35 PM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.

The service academies provide free prep schools for prospects plus all sorts of academic advantages. SMU with Eric Dickerson??? For those who graduate; they paid a great deal more than the average college kid. Difference is payment made in blood, sweat, tears, abuse, and pain.
10-01-2019 12:38 PM
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3xTribe Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
Since this is all about players being able to market themselves, not about schools paying players from their own budgets, the real issue seems seems to be which schools will be able to present themselves as a valuable conduit to marketing opportunities. How much really changes? Aren't schools with high national profiles likely to be the ones that will allow players to generate the most money from their name, image, and likeness? The Alabamas and Clemsons of the world have a built in advantage, but they do already. I suppose west coast schools that haven't competed well in recent years could see a recruiting surge based on size of market. Still, even players at Directional U may be able to make a few bucks doing ads for the local car dealer or restaurant. This may impact basketball and football differently, of course, but the balance of power seems unlikely to shift significantly if everyone has NIL rights. There is an interesting article in The Athletic with several different scenarios for a path forward (paywalled, though).
10-01-2019 12:54 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.

Devalued? It isn't even considered. That's not to say the degree is devalued. Just the education. FBS schools are spoon feeding players a degree over five years with no more than a handful of serious students on a roster at any one time. In truth, but nobody really wants to talk about the truth, the athletes are providing money to employees that don't really deserve it and are receiving degrees they don't really deserve. I would be perfectly happy for athletes to earn money while in school if they honestly should be there in the first place. But society has created this entertainment model monster where being good at sports and slightly literate can get you into about 125 of 130 FBS schools. I'm disgusted by those who are more concerned with the issue of pay over the sanctity of the admissions process. We jail celebrities for bribing their kids' way into top schools but celebrate the blind eye given to athletics admissions. I'm a huge fan of college sports but I also realize what a joke it is. And people can blame the letters NCAA all they want but the blame for the joke rests entirely on presidents, ADs and coaches at the individual universities. As I said, I am a huge fan...but I was a huge fan before it got so dang gross too.
10-01-2019 01:46 PM
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billymac Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

Don't believe, for a second, that schools like Vanderbilt and Northwestern will ever leave their respective leagues. With the amount of money that the SEC Network and the Big10 Network pay each school, every year (and growing), those schools won't even feel the hit from this move. Those Networks pays for a LOT of other things.

Now, if the "Magnolia League" wants to include some of the Mid-American type FBS schools, that might work, as those type schools are the ones that WILL feel the hurt.
10-01-2019 02:00 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 02:00 PM)billymac Wrote:  
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

Don't believe, for a second, that schools like Vanderbilt and Northwestern will ever leave their respective leagues. With the amount of money that the SEC Network and the Big10 Network pay each school, every year (and growing), those schools won't even feel the hit from this move. Those Networks pays for a LOT of other things.

Now, if the "Magnolia League" wants to include some of the Mid-American type FBS schools, that might work, as those type schools are the ones that WILL feel the hurt.

Coincidently, I was at Vanderbilts game this weekend. We complain about student attendance, there were literally maybe 200 there. They announce attendance at 24,000, it looked well less than half full, around 15,000. The week before against LSU, the stadium was 80% LSU fans.

Vanderbilt is also going through a major shift. They have nearly blown up the Greek system there which was quite prominent 10 years ago. The students on that campus today are far less interested in football or sports in general.

I wouldn't be so sure on what the future may hold there. Vanderbilt was an odd duck in the SEC 10 years ago, today it looks like an extension of Brown.
10-01-2019 03:22 PM
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billymac Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 03:22 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I wouldn't be so sure on what the future may hold there. Vanderbilt was an odd duck in the SEC 10 years ago, today it looks like an extension of Brown.

Ha!
04-bow
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2019 03:45 PM by billymac.)
10-01-2019 03:44 PM
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nogretheogre Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
Federal legislative considerations

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...e-athletes
10-02-2019 12:17 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-01-2019 01:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.

Devalued? It isn't even considered. That's not to say the degree is devalued. Just the education. FBS schools are spoon feeding players a degree over five years with no more than a handful of serious students on a roster at any one time. In truth, but nobody really wants to talk about the truth, the athletes are providing money to employees that don't really deserve it and are receiving degrees they don't really deserve. I would be perfectly happy for athletes to earn money while in school if they honestly should be there in the first place. But society has created this entertainment model monster where being good at sports and slightly literate can get you into about 125 of 130 FBS schools. I'm disgusted by those who are more concerned with the issue of pay over the sanctity of the admissions process. We jail celebrities for bribing their kids' way into top schools but celebrate the blind eye given to athletics admissions. I'm a huge fan of college sports but I also realize what a joke it is. And people can blame the letters NCAA all they want but the blame for the joke rests entirely on presidents, ADs and coaches at the individual universities. As I said, I am a huge fan...but I was a huge fan before it got so dang gross too.

The entire major college sports ecosystem is hugely flawed. But it's pretty absurd to say the problem is kids being given a shot at a college education. The place where it all breaks down is that colleges decided that they were going to try to make as much money as possible off these kids.

There's really not a way around it - paying players effectively ends major college sports as we know it. But it's the only remotely fair way to go and it's the schools that created this problem, not the players.
10-02-2019 05:21 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-02-2019 05:21 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(10-01-2019 01:46 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-01-2019 12:12 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I guess this also signals how devalued a college education is in some quarters these days. It's hardly implied as a payback on performance.

So this will further raise the stakes and will hopefully lead to a super group of schools, 60 or so, who can now prostitute themselves into a true NFL minor league. That's what it is anyway at the top level of FBS.

The upside for W&M and others, FCS can expand with additional and meaningful Universities that just won't or can't go there. The Service Academies to start, possibly the Vanderbilts and Northwesterns. Throw in Tulane, Rice, SMU - we may actually have that Ivy style "Magnolia League" after all. The Ivy League programs can also become relevant again.

The real concern would be for the straphangers in FBS which includes about half the ACC.

Devalued? It isn't even considered. That's not to say the degree is devalued. Just the education. FBS schools are spoon feeding players a degree over five years with no more than a handful of serious students on a roster at any one time. In truth, but nobody really wants to talk about the truth, the athletes are providing money to employees that don't really deserve it and are receiving degrees they don't really deserve. I would be perfectly happy for athletes to earn money while in school if they honestly should be there in the first place. But society has created this entertainment model monster where being good at sports and slightly literate can get you into about 125 of 130 FBS schools. I'm disgusted by those who are more concerned with the issue of pay over the sanctity of the admissions process. We jail celebrities for bribing their kids' way into top schools but celebrate the blind eye given to athletics admissions. I'm a huge fan of college sports but I also realize what a joke it is. And people can blame the letters NCAA all they want but the blame for the joke rests entirely on presidents, ADs and coaches at the individual universities. As I said, I am a huge fan...but I was a huge fan before it got so dang gross too.

The entire major college sports ecosystem is hugely flawed. But it's pretty absurd to say the problem is kids being given a shot at a college education. The place where it all breaks down is that colleges decided that they were going to try to make as much money as possible off these kids.

There's really not a way around it - paying players effectively ends major college sports as we know it. But it's the only remotely fair way to go and it's the schools that created this problem, not the players.

I think it’s absurd to take my post and say it in any way remotely was built around education. In fact I said that the system is NOT about providing an education. Big time college athletics is about eligibility and sometimes a degree but rarely about education. The guilt that people try to throw around when someone states they want schools to actually educate kids that can and want to learn is also absurd.
10-02-2019 07:29 PM
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WMTribe90 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
This topic really strikes a nerve. The well-intentioned folks in favor of paying college athletes are very quick to gloss-over or disregard completely the value of the free college education (not to mention preferential admissions). On what planet, can an education, room, and board worth anywhere from $30k - $60K per year not be considered compensation. Where else can an 18-year old with a HS diploma make that kind of money doing something they love?

Tuition, room, and board are just base pay. For the college football or basketball player with professional aspirations, their college playing days amount to a paid internship. These athletes are given free access to world-class training facilities and coaching, nutritional planning, strength and conditioning training, counseling, healthcare, etc. Job perks include free travel, cost of living stipends, and fan adulation. No 18-year old is ready to jump into the NFL (even if they were allowed) and these colleges are preparing these athletes for multi-million dollar careers for free!! In what world is that not just compensation!?

Ok, now let's look at the worst case. A kid that starts four years at a P5 school, but never makes it to the NFL. I concede he helped generate revenue far in excess of his "compensation". I would answer this athlete's participation in the sport was voluntary. If we are going to treat the universities as if they are employers, than the players are employees, and any employee has the option to quit or seek other employment if they feel they are not being adequately compensated. Secondly, even if this example athlete doesn't make the NFL, he was given the opportunity to pursue his dream to the fullest, an opportunity that should not be taken for granted. How many kids with college smarts cannot afford the opportunity to pursue their dreams at the highest level their talents and ambition afford. Lastly, this example, if he chose to take advantage of it, came out with a degree and alumni network that can boost his life-long earning potential by an order of magnitude or more.

The solution to the issue of too much money in college athletics is not to acquiesce to the corrupting influence of money on amateur athletics. The answer, and feel free to call me naïve here, is to get back to the heart and foundation of amateur athletics. Don't allow those (shoe companies, media companies, pro-sports leagues, sports betting, etc.) that would turn high level college athletics into a de-facto pro-sports league, mask their naked profiteering under the shield of amateurism. Their deep concern for the athletes' well-being extends as far the dollars lead them. Casting the NCAA as the villains (genuine issues with the NCAA aside) serves their profit motive, which they cloak as caring for the athletes well-being.

If the NCAA would have held the line long ago the market would have found the needed solution. There should be a professional football league for 18-24-year old kids. Those players should be paid under contract commensurate with league revenues. Kids that are unprepared or unsuited for college, that want to get paid now, or feel college is not their best avenue to "career" advancement could simply skip amateur football can go straight to this developmental league. The only reason such a league does not currently exist is that the NCAA has allowed the schools and the profit centers surrounding the game, to turn the NCAA institutions into a de facto semi-pro league and corrupt the foundational principles of amateur student athletics in the process.

In my mind, W&M competes at the highest level of true college athletics, with amateur student athletes. While I think there is work to be done for the College to achieve its highest athletic potential, anything that blurs the line between professional and amateur competition is a non-starter for me.

Absent my admittedly unlikely pro-league solution, I am all for the P5 giving up the pretense and leaving the NCAA umbrella to form its own association. My hope would be for a major realignment where the top half of FCS and the remaining FBS schools align geographically, forming rivalry based bus leagues that are revenue neutral.

Something Like This:

Colonial North

Towson
UD
JMU
Villanova
Richmond
Navy (or Marshall)

Colonial South

WM
Furman
Elon
Old Dominion
ECU
Liberty
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 01:22 PM by WMTribe90.)
10-03-2019 12:37 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-03-2019 12:37 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  This topic really strikes a nerve. The well-intentioned folks in favor of paying college athletes are very quick to gloss-over or disregard completely the value of the free college education (not to mention preferential admissions). On what planet, can an education, room, and board worth anywhere from $30k - $60K per year not be considered compensation. Where else can an 18-year old with a HS diploma make that kind of money doing something they love?

Tuition, room, and board are just base pay. For the college football or basketball player with professional aspirations, their college playing days amount to a paid internship. These athletes are given free access to world-class training facilities and coaching, nutritional planning, strength and conditioning training, counseling, healthcare, etc. Job perks include free travel, cost of living stipends, and fan adulation. No 18-year old is ready to jump into the NFL (even if they were allowed) and these colleges are preparing these athletes for multi-million dollar careers for free!! In what world is that not just compensation!?

Ok, now let's look at the worst case. A kid that starts four years at a P5 school, but never makes it to the NFL. I concede he helped generate revenue far in excess of his "compensation". I would answer this athlete's participation in the sport was voluntary. If we are going to treat the universities as if they are employers, than the players are employees, and any employee has the option to quit or seek other employment if they feel they are not being adequately compensated. Secondly, even if this example athlete doesn't make the NFL, he was given the opportunity to pursue his dream to the fullest, an opportunity that should not be taken for granted. How many kids with college smarts cannot afford the opportunity to pursue their dreams at the highest level their talents and ambition afford. Lastly, this example, if he chose to take advantage of it, came out with a degree and alumni network that can boost his life-long earning potential by an order of magnitude or more.

The solution to the issue of too much money in college athletics is not to acquiesce to the corrupting influence of money on amateur athletics. The answer, and feel free to call me naïve here, is to get back to the heart and foundation of amateur athletics. Don't allow those (shoe companies, media companies, pro-sports leagues, sports betting, etc.) that would turn high level college athletics into a de-facto pro-sports league, mask their naked profiteering under the shield of amateurism. Their deep concern for the athletes' well-being extends as far the dollars lead them. Casting the NCAA as the villains (genuine issues with the NCAA aside) serves their profit motive, which they cloak as caring for the athletes well-being.

If the NCAA would have held the line long ago the market would have found the needed solution. There should be a professional football league for 18-24-year old kids. Those players should be paid under contract commensurate with league revenues. Kids that are unprepared or unsuited for college, that want to get paid now, or feel college is not their best avenue to "career" advancement could simply skip amateur football can go straight to this developmental league. The only reason such a league does not currently exist is that the NCAA has allowed the schools and the profit centers surrounding the game, to turn the NCAA institutions into a de facto semi-pro league and corrupt the foundational principles of amateur student athletics in the process.

In my mind, W&M competes at the highest level of true college athletics, with amateur student athletes. While I think there is work to be done for the College to achieve its highest athletic potential, anything that blurs the line between professional and amateur competition is a non-starter for me.

Absent my admittedly unlikely pro-league solution, I am all for the P5 giving up the pretense and leaving the NCAA umbrella to form its own association. My hope would be for a major realignment where the top half of FCS and the remaining FBS schools align geographically, forming rivalry based bus leagues that are revenue neutral.

Something Like This:

Colonial North

Towson
UD
JMU
Villanova
Richmond
Navy (or Marshall)

Colonial South

WM
Furman
Elon
Old Dominion
ECU
Liberty

WMTribe90 for President.
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 01:56 PM by Tribe3455.)
10-03-2019 01:55 PM
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