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Florida tribe fan Offline
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Post: #21
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-03-2019 01:55 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 12:37 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  This topic really strikes a nerve. The well-intentioned folks in favor of paying college athletes are very quick to gloss-over or disregard completely the value of the free college education (not to mention preferential admissions). On what planet, can an education, room, and board worth anywhere from $30k - $60K per year not be considered compensation. Where else can an 18-year old with a HS diploma make that kind of money doing something they love?

Tuition, room, and board are just base pay. For the college football or basketball player with professional aspirations, their college playing days amount to a paid internship. These athletes are given free access to world-class training facilities and coaching, nutritional planning, strength and conditioning training, counseling, healthcare, etc. Job perks include free travel, cost of living stipends, and fan adulation. No 18-year old is ready to jump into the NFL (even if they were allowed) and these colleges are preparing these athletes for multi-million dollar careers for free!! In what world is that not just compensation!?

Ok, now let's look at the worst case. A kid that starts four years at a P5 school, but never makes it to the NFL. I concede he helped generate revenue far in excess of his "compensation". I would answer this athlete's participation in the sport was voluntary. If we are going to treat the universities as if they are employers, than the players are employees, and any employee has the option to quit or seek other employment if they feel they are not being adequately compensated. Secondly, even if this example athlete doesn't make the NFL, he was given the opportunity to pursue his dream to the fullest, an opportunity that should not be taken for granted. How many kids with college smarts cannot afford the opportunity to pursue their dreams at the highest level their talents and ambition afford. Lastly, this example, if he chose to take advantage of it, came out with a degree and alumni network that can boost his life-long earning potential by an order of magnitude or more.

The solution to the issue of too much money in college athletics is not to acquiesce to the corrupting influence of money on amateur athletics. The answer, and feel free to call me naïve here, is to get back to the heart and foundation of amateur athletics. Don't allow those (shoe companies, media companies, pro-sports leagues, sports betting, etc.) that would turn high level college athletics into a de-facto pro-sports league, mask their naked profiteering under the shield of amateurism. Their deep concern for the athletes' well-being extends as far the dollars lead them. Casting the NCAA as the villains (genuine issues with the NCAA aside) serves their profit motive, which they cloak as caring for the athletes well-being.

If the NCAA would have held the line long ago the market would have found the needed solution. There should be a professional football league for 18-24-year old kids. Those players should be paid under contract commensurate with league revenues. Kids that are unprepared or unsuited for college, that want to get paid now, or feel college is not their best avenue to "career" advancement could simply skip amateur football can go straight to this developmental league. The only reason such a league does not currently exist is that the NCAA has allowed the schools and the profit centers surrounding the game, to turn the NCAA institutions into a de facto semi-pro league and corrupt the foundational principles of amateur student athletics in the process.

In my mind, W&M competes at the highest level of true college athletics, with amateur student athletes. While I think there is work to be done for the College to achieve its highest athletic potential, anything that blurs the line between professional and amateur competition is a non-starter for me.

Absent my admittedly unlikely pro-league solution, I am all for the P5 giving up the pretense and leaving the NCAA umbrella to form its own association. My hope would be for a major realignment where the top half of FCS and the remaining FBS schools align geographically, forming rivalry based bus leagues that are revenue neutral.

Something Like This:

Colonial North

Towson
UD
JMU
Villanova
Richmond
Navy (or Marshall)

Colonial South

WM
Furman
Elon
Old Dominion
ECU
Liberty

WMTribe90 for President.

Pictor Group is engaged in proactive contingency planning as I write.
10-03-2019 08:38 PM
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WMTribe90 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-03-2019 01:55 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 12:37 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  This topic really strikes a nerve. The well-intentioned folks in favor of paying college athletes are very quick to gloss-over or disregard completely the value of the free college education (not to mention preferential admissions). On what planet, can an education, room, and board worth anywhere from $30k - $60K per year not be considered compensation. Where else can an 18-year old with a HS diploma make that kind of money doing something they love?

Tuition, room, and board are just base pay. For the college football or basketball player with professional aspirations, their college playing days amount to a paid internship. These athletes are given free access to world-class training facilities and coaching, nutritional planning, strength and conditioning training, counseling, healthcare, etc. Job perks include free travel, cost of living stipends, and fan adulation. No 18-year old is ready to jump into the NFL (even if they were allowed) and these colleges are preparing these athletes for multi-million dollar careers for free!! In what world is that not just compensation!?

Ok, now let's look at the worst case. A kid that starts four years at a P5 school, but never makes it to the NFL. I concede he helped generate revenue far in excess of his "compensation". I would answer this athlete's participation in the sport was voluntary. If we are going to treat the universities as if they are employers, than the players are employees, and any employee has the option to quit or seek other employment if they feel they are not being adequately compensated. Secondly, even if this example athlete doesn't make the NFL, he was given the opportunity to pursue his dream to the fullest, an opportunity that should not be taken for granted. How many kids with college smarts cannot afford the opportunity to pursue their dreams at the highest level their talents and ambition afford. Lastly, this example, if he chose to take advantage of it, came out with a degree and alumni network that can boost his life-long earning potential by an order of magnitude or more.

The solution to the issue of too much money in college athletics is not to acquiesce to the corrupting influence of money on amateur athletics. The answer, and feel free to call me naïve here, is to get back to the heart and foundation of amateur athletics. Don't allow those (shoe companies, media companies, pro-sports leagues, sports betting, etc.) that would turn high level college athletics into a de-facto pro-sports league, mask their naked profiteering under the shield of amateurism. Their deep concern for the athletes' well-being extends as far the dollars lead them. Casting the NCAA as the villains (genuine issues with the NCAA aside) serves their profit motive, which they cloak as caring for the athletes well-being.

If the NCAA would have held the line long ago the market would have found the needed solution. There should be a professional football league for 18-24-year old kids. Those players should be paid under contract commensurate with league revenues. Kids that are unprepared or unsuited for college, that want to get paid now, or feel college is not their best avenue to "career" advancement could simply skip amateur football can go straight to this developmental league. The only reason such a league does not currently exist is that the NCAA has allowed the schools and the profit centers surrounding the game, to turn the NCAA institutions into a de facto semi-pro league and corrupt the foundational principles of amateur student athletics in the process.

In my mind, W&M competes at the highest level of true college athletics, with amateur student athletes. While I think there is work to be done for the College to achieve its highest athletic potential, anything that blurs the line between professional and amateur competition is a non-starter for me.

Absent my admittedly unlikely pro-league solution, I am all for the P5 giving up the pretense and leaving the NCAA umbrella to form its own association. My hope would be for a major realignment where the top half of FCS and the remaining FBS schools align geographically, forming rivalry based bus leagues that are revenue neutral.

Something Like This:

Colonial North

Towson
UD
JMU
Villanova
Richmond
Navy (or Marshall)

Colonial South

WM
Furman
Elon
Old Dominion
ECU
Liberty

WMTribe90 for President.

What did I ever do to you? 03-wink
10-03-2019 10:30 PM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #23
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-03-2019 12:37 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  This topic really strikes a nerve. The well-intentioned folks in favor of paying college athletes are very quick to gloss-over or disregard completely the value of the free college education (not to mention preferential admissions).

I would argue that they're (we're?) not making the claim that a college education is not compensation. They're making the claim that it's not enough compensation. IMO, the problem is where the money ends up. There wouldn't be much of an argument if the money went back to member schools to keep the cost of attending down across the board. But the current system has executives simultaneously raking it in and making rules to disallow student athletes from getting a cut. Effectively paying the student athletes a salary does not resolve the problem of money in collegiate athletics, but that's not the point. This action is to address where the money is ending up, not to remove the money.

FWIW, I edited the rest of your post out of my reply because I think we largely agree on the other points you made.
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 11:15 PM by TribeInTheBurg.)
10-03-2019 11:12 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #24
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
I agree that this topic hits a nerve. College athletics, particularly at the P5 level (but no institution above D3 has escaped) has been corrupted by the obscene amount money involved, particularly from television exposure. Nothing is really going to change that and paying athletes is just spreading a little more of the money around to more participants.

I assume that in our current society and collegial athletic culture that paying athletes will occur. I would hope that rather than fight against doing so, which is my initial reaction, that there is a push back for remediation which may have a slightly better chance of implementation.

If paying athletes is allowed I would suggest that a baseball style system be implemented for all sports with regard to athletes turning pro, where they may go pro either right out of high school or at the end of their junior year.

In addition, should an athlete change schools during their time in college make the athlete liable to reimburse the institution from which they are transferring the cost of the athlete's salary, tuition, room & board, etc. at that institution, unless the athlete is released by their initial institution should the athlete move up in classification. Reimbursement should not be made should the athlete move down in classification.

This would be a cost that the institution to which the athlete is transferring would bear no doubt. It would have the effect of transferring money from the haves to the have nots and perhaps slow down transfers to more affluent athletic institutions from less affluent ones who initially helped develop and brand the athlete transferring. This may also have the impact of leveling the playing field a slight bit.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2019 04:48 AM by LeadBolt.)
10-04-2019 04:45 AM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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Post: #25
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
This train is on the track. I’ve enjoyed all these thoughtful comments; but you may as well be whizzing in the wind. If the shoe fits; wear it. Naiveté has its charm in a fourth grader. I taught fourth grade for 12 years. In an adult: no.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2019 03:33 PM by SoCal Frank.)
10-05-2019 10:41 AM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
Ask any parents who, as say parents with a young man or woman attending a top college like W&M and are paying around $250000 (out of state) or $175000 (instate) and they'll think a four year free education at W&M for playing a sport is a pretty darn good deal! Plus their kid gets money for "expenses" like travel back and forth to home.

Spare me the tears about underpaid real student-athletes.
10-06-2019 06:16 AM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #27
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-06-2019 06:16 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Ask any parents who, as say parents with a young man or woman attending a top college like W&M and are paying around $250000 (out of state) or $175000 (instate) and they'll think a four year free education at W&M for playing a sport is a pretty darn good deal! Plus their kid gets money for "expenses" like travel back and forth to home.

Spare me the tears about underpaid real student-athletes.

The point is not that student-athletes are underpaid. The point is that executives at the NCAA are making a large amount of money from labor provided by these student-athletes, and the student-athletes not only do not get any part of it, the people who pocket the money made rules to prevent having to give it to the student-athletes. Spare me the tears about executives not getting to keep all the money.
10-06-2019 08:16 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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Post: #28
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
The law doesnt amount to the NCAA paying the students. It allows students to market themselves to the public via their own work or through corporate sponsorship.

The NCAA itself making money as a business is also a problem. The money that this "non-profit" makes should be equally divides all profit among all participating schools, likely in a tiered approach based on number of scholarships and Division I/II/III. I dont agree with giving money unequally based on who is a winner. The prize is the championship, prestige and publicity that comes with it. Money doesnt need to be a bonus. That is how we ended up with such inequality between the P5 and the rest. P5 can separate based on their privately held TV networks and donations alone. The NCAA doesnt have to help them as well.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2019 08:54 AM by nogretheogre.)
10-06-2019 08:53 AM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-06-2019 08:16 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 06:16 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Ask any parents who, as say parents with a young man or woman attending a top college like W&M and are paying around $250000 (out of state) or $175000 (instate) and they'll think a four year free education at W&M for playing a sport is a pretty darn good deal! Plus their kid gets money for "expenses" like travel back and forth to home.

Spare me the tears about underpaid real student-athletes.

The point is not that student-athletes are underpaid. The point is that executives at the NCAA are making a large amount of money from labor provided by these student-athletes, and the student-athletes not only do not get any part of it, the people who pocket the money made rules to prevent having to give it to the student-athletes. Spare me the tears about executives not getting to keep all the money.

This. Arguments like the one (two posts) above are the equivalent of saying a brilliant computer science whiz who gets a scholarship to attend WM and starts a company in his spare time that becomes highly profitable shouldn't get to keep any of the money he makes off it and instead has to give it to the school and a shadowy collegiate regulatory body just because he's already been fully compensated by his scholarship alone. Not a single person believes that.
10-06-2019 09:14 AM
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Post: #30
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-06-2019 09:14 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 08:16 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 06:16 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Ask any parents who, as say parents with a young man or woman attending a top college like W&M and are paying around $250000 (out of state) or $175000 (instate) and they'll think a four year free education at W&M for playing a sport is a pretty darn good deal! Plus their kid gets money for "expenses" like travel back and forth to home.

Spare me the tears about underpaid real student-athletes.

The point is not that student-athletes are underpaid. The point is that executives at the NCAA are making a large amount of money from labor provided by these student-athletes, and the student-athletes not only do not get any part of it, the people who pocket the money made rules to prevent having to give it to the student-athletes. Spare me the tears about executives not getting to keep all the money.

This. Arguments like the one (two posts) above are the equivalent of saying a brilliant computer science whiz who gets a scholarship to attend WM and starts a company in his spare time that becomes highly profitable shouldn't get to keep any of the money he makes off it and instead has to give it to the school and a shadowy collegiate regulatory body just because he's already been fully compensated by his scholarship alone. Not a single person believes that.

Good by to cross country,swimming track and all the sports funded by revenue producing sports.
10-07-2019 12:05 PM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
Schools like W&M won't have to worry about their student-athletes collecting big money, or perhaps any money at all, from sales related to them.
10-07-2019 02:49 PM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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Post: #32
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-07-2019 02:49 PM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Schools like W&M won't have to worry about their student-athletes collecting big money, or perhaps any money at all, from sales related to them.
BD. Cold blooded. If they gave a toot about making money, it could happen!!
10-08-2019 03:42 PM
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Old tribe Offline
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Post: #33
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-07-2019 12:05 PM)LION KING Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 09:14 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 08:16 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-06-2019 06:16 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Ask any parents who, as say parents with a young man or woman attending a top college like W&M and are paying around $250000 (out of state) or $175000 (instate) and they'll think a four year free education at W&M for playing a sport is a pretty darn good deal! Plus their kid gets money for "expenses" like travel back and forth to home.

Spare me the tears about underpaid real student-athletes.

The point is not that student-athletes are underpaid. The point is that executives at the NCAA are making a large amount of money from labor provided by these student-athletes, and the student-athletes not only do not get any part of it, the people who pocket the money made rules to prevent having to give it to the student-athletes. Spare me the tears about executives not getting to keep all the money.

This. Arguments like the one (two posts) above are the equivalent of saying a brilliant computer science whiz who gets a scholarship to attend WM and starts a company in his spare time that becomes highly profitable shouldn't get to keep any of the money he makes off it and instead has to give it to the school and a shadowy collegiate regulatory body just because he's already been fully compensated by his scholarship alone. Not a single person believes that.

Good by to cross country,swimming track and all the sports funded by revenue producing sports.

Not true, laws like the California don't result in any money being paid by schools to college athletes. They allow third parties, such as Nike or a car dealership, to pay the athletes for the use of their name, image, and likeness. They won't have any effect on a school's athletics budget. This, and Title IX, are frequent arguments made against the CA law. They are both incorrect. Title IX only relates to how schools spend their athletics budgets on men and women and provide athletics opportunities for men and women. It has no say on how third parties spend their money on college athletes.
10-09-2019 09:56 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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Post: #34
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(09-30-2019 11:17 AM)3xTribe Wrote:  
(09-30-2019 10:45 AM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Expect California schools to immediately get a bump in high-level recruiting, which should be the impetus for it to be adopted nationwide...influential alums of P5 schools are not scarce in their respective state congressional representation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/sport/cal...index.html

I don't know about an immediate bump, as the legislation doesn't take effect until 2023. This gives the NCAA plenty of time to react (at the point of a gun, perhaps) in a way that would limit the advantage enjoyed by California schools. In the spirit of federalism, it's anybody's guess how other states will react.

That was fast...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/29/us/ncaa-a...index.html

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...likenesses

Will this be the final straw for a conference realignment of G5 and FCS? Id think any player on a P5 team could turn themselves into a decent moneymaker (think appearances at random local restaurants, sporting goods stores, booster-owned businesses etc). G5 will have a harder time convincing the best athletes to come simply for the promise of playing time...their fanbases arent nearly large enough to allow as much profiting compared to being on a big-name team.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2019 04:25 PM by nogretheogre.)
10-29-2019 03:56 PM
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Post: #35
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
The amount of teams that go to bowls is greater than the amount of P5 teams. Independently operated bowls won't want to stop existing without G5 teams. The top FCS teams won't want to have to compete with UCF, Boise State, App State, Memphis, and whatever other G5 schools stand out some years. Looking at conference revenues for all sports combined, it would be good for the CAA if G5 conferences decreased their Football revenue.

How many athletes would get endorsements or other ways to profit? Even on the Number 1 team, will the tenth best player make much money? How many pro teams have at least ten players with significant endorsements? Out of thousands of P5 scholarship athletes, what percent of money would go to players outside the Top 100 highest earners? What percent of money would go to athletes who consider themselves too good for G5 with or without being able to make money in college?

Some athletes care more about academics than others. It's bad for academics if players who already miss time traveling to sports spend time at for-profit appearances rather than studying. If that led to schools being punished for poor APRs, it could backfire.

This could lead to coaches lying about how much money current and/or former athletes made to impress recruits.

Athletes could be targeted by thieves. There could be threats like "I know where your dorm is and you have to throw this week's game or I'll break in."

There are some consequences that it's impossible to know in advance.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2019 04:27 PM by EvanJ.)
10-29-2019 04:26 PM
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Post: #36
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-29-2019 04:26 PM)EvanJ Wrote:  The amount of teams that go to bowls is greater than the amount of P5 teams. Independently operated bowls won't want to stop existing without G5 teams. The top FCS teams won't want to have to compete with UCF, Boise State, App State, Memphis, and whatever other G5 schools stand out some years. Looking at conference revenues for all sports combined, it would be good for the CAA if G5 conferences decreased their Football revenue.

How many athletes would get endorsements or other ways to profit? Even on the Number 1 team, will the tenth best player make much money? How many pro teams have at least ten players with significant endorsements? Out of thousands of P5 scholarship athletes, what percent of money would go to players outside the Top 100 highest earners? What percent of money would go to athletes who consider themselves too good for G5 with or without being able to make money in college?

Some athletes care more about academics than others. It's bad for academics if players who already miss time traveling to sports spend time at for-profit appearances rather than studying. If that led to schools being punished for poor APRs, it could backfire.

This could lead to coaches lying about how much money current and/or former athletes made to impress recruits.

Athletes could be targeted by thieves. There could be threats like "I know where your dorm is and you have to throw this week's game or I'll break in."

There are some consequences that it's impossible to know in advance.

I used to take experimental drugs and vaccines for small fees. Youd be surprised what young students with limited time and no income will do to make a quick buck. You dont have to earn much to make it relevant. Pro athletes arent comparable because they already make a good living. The 10th best player will make enough to make it worth his while...there will be plenty of opportunity- kids birthday parties for an hour at $200 bucks, etc. Charging $5 for an "autograph or a selfie with a real local star." Probably package deals with 3 players showing up at a time to make it more exciting.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2019 04:42 PM by nogretheogre.)
10-29-2019 04:41 PM
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Post: #37
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-29-2019 04:41 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  I used to take experimental drugs and vaccines...

This explains everything
10-29-2019 04:51 PM
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Post: #38
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-29-2019 03:56 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  That was fast...

Well, this isn't (from the first article): "The board, which met in Atlanta, asked each division to create rules between now and January 2021."

Although I guess it is fast when compared to the actual California bill which has a start date of 2023.
10-29-2019 06:32 PM
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Post: #39
RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
(10-29-2019 06:32 PM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2019 03:56 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  That was fast...

Well, this isn't (from the first article): "The board, which met in Atlanta, asked each division to create rules between now and January 2021."

Although I guess it is fast when compared to the actual California bill which has a start date of 2023.

Fast decision by the NCAA to jump on board...and 14 months away is pretty fast for a quasi-governmental institution.
10-29-2019 09:27 PM
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RE: College Athletes Getting Paid
11-11-2019 06:38 PM
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