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Scheduling Czar
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-23-2019 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And I must ask, is there really much difference between playing the bottom 4 schools in the PAC, ACC, SEC, and Big 10 and the bottom 2 in the Big 12 than there is in playing an AAC or MWC school? I don't think so, and in many cases the AAC or MWC school may be better.

Probably not the top 2 of the MWC/AAC. Probably very similar.

The Audible podcast (Mandel/Feldman) had very cogent arguments about USF and where they would fit in a P5 conference. Basically, it's the idea that they'd be middle of the pack...

Would they sneak up and bite a top 10-15 team every now and then? Sure.

Would they also lose to another middle of the pack time on occasion? Yup.

Would they themselves get upset by a weak team every blue moon? Maybe.

Throw Minnesota or Maryland in MWC/AAC...and they probably become a 9-3 team. In the Big Ten, they'll be around 6-6. The talent gap is real between the P5 and G5...and when you play a higher talent level week after week, it takes its toll.
09-24-2019 10:57 PM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-24-2019 02:30 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  The cleanest solution for the short term would just be for the five P5 conferences to get together and agree to 10 P5 games a year. About half of schools are already doing this.

Agreed. That would give us a few more compelling matchups per week right off the bat, as most of the SEC would need to drop a G5 and pick up a P5.
09-24-2019 10:59 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-24-2019 10:57 PM)micahandme Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And I must ask, is there really much difference between playing the bottom 4 schools in the PAC, ACC, SEC, and Big 10 and the bottom 2 in the Big 12 than there is in playing an AAC or MWC school? I don't think so, and in many cases the AAC or MWC school may be better.

Probably not the top 2 of the MWC/AAC. Probably very similar.

The Audible podcast (Mandel/Feldman) had very cogent arguments about USF and where they would fit in a P5 conference. Basically, it's the idea that they'd be middle of the pack...

Would they sneak up and bite a top 10-15 team every now and then? Sure.

Would they also lose to another middle of the pack time on occasion? Yup.

Would they themselves get upset by a weak team every blue moon? Maybe.

Throw Minnesota or Maryland in MWC/AAC...and they probably become a 9-3 team. In the Big Ten, they'll be around 6-6. The talent gap is real between the P5 and G5...and when you play a higher talent level week after week, it takes its toll.

The week in and week out grind against heavier lines is something that many of the G5 don't grasp, but the service academies got it right away. It results in injuries and attrition which is why so many P schools in the mid level bowls struggle. They are out of their depth advantage and at that point it is a much more even game. The reason most P5's have a major advantage in wins against the G5 at the start of the season is because they play even for a half and then the depth kicks in. By bowl season that advantage is gone.
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2019 11:26 PM by JRsec.)
09-24-2019 11:25 PM
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AppfanInCAAland Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Scheduling Czar
This is all silly talk. It ain't happening. As long as 6 wins is the requirement for bowl eligibility and the number of bowls are not drastically reduces, P5 teams are not dropping FCS and G5 games. Too many need those games for their 6th win and to say it was a good season necause they went to a bowl. Also, the biggest programs want to play 7 to 8 home games. If they only play other P5s, they will be forced to play on the road OOC - say goodbye to 8 home games, SEC.

If they compromise and say no FCS but allow G5 then I say go for it - because I root for a G5 team and the only schools that eliminating FCS games would benefit are in the G5. The price of a G5 buy-in game would skyrocket - with the increased demand and reduced supply. It is already too expensive for some of the poorer P5 bottom-dwellers now. But if you drop FCS games, all but the top 20 or so richest P5s would be forced into home and homes with G5s, while those top 20 would be forced into paying multi-million dollar buy games.

Actually, since App State has scheduled a buy game with Wisconsin (17th largest stadium) and a home-and-home with South Carolina (18th largest stadium), it could be argued that there are only 17 teams that can afford a buy game with a high-level G5 now, so the number of P5 teams that could afford a G5 buy game with FCS games eliminated might be in the single digits- especially if the P5 was limited to 1 G5 as the original OP proposed.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2019 09:15 PM by AppfanInCAAland.)
09-25-2019 07:30 PM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Scheduling Czar
Who makes the "6 win" bowl threshold? That's right...the P5 conferences who control the bowls. So...that's just an arbitrary number right now.

If they want it to stay at 6 and kill off a few bowls, they'll keep it at 6.

If they want to lower it to 5 and keep the same number of bowls, they'll lower it to 5.

Don't imagine that rules they create can't be changed if desired.
09-25-2019 09:47 PM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Scheduling Czar
My counter argument to your "17 teams can buy a G5 foe" argument is this.

In my proposal, the P5 TV deals would go up EVEN HIGHER. You'd be upping the inventory across CFB by about 10%. That 10% is about 5 million dollars per school in the Big Ten and SEC. With that extra 5 million, they can all buy their G5 opponent quite easily.
09-25-2019 09:50 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-24-2019 12:26 PM)Mav Wrote:  If we get a czar it'll be a bunch of made-for-TV matchups with zero regard to rivalries, tradition, or the health of the teams that are playing. You centralize scheduling, and it'll have the same effect that the Oklahoma and Georgia lawsuits have had: The Mouse always wins.

Disagree, in that the Georgia and Oklahoma lawsuits had very good outcome - we can now see dozens of college football games, just as the supreme court envisioned, rather than being stuck with the few NCAA-approved games as we were in the old days.

A central scheduling czar, on the other hand, would have only negative impact.
09-25-2019 10:02 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-25-2019 09:47 PM)micahandme Wrote:  Who makes the "6 win" bowl threshold? That's right...the P5 conferences who control the bowls.

All of the FBS conferences want a low threshold for bowl eligibility, because it means every team with at least a .500 record gets a bowl game as a participation trophy, kind of like the ones they hand out in football leagues for 10 year olds.

Just as importantly, ESPN wants to keep all of these bowl games because it's relatively inexpensive programming that delivers really good ratings relative to the low cost.
09-26-2019 12:05 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Scheduling Czar
People forget that one of the reasons why the rules changed to allow one FCS game a year to count towards bowl eligibility: the larger DI programs needed the votes from the smaller ones to get some rules change they wanted in basketball. Screw over the FCS schools by taking away their payday games and it will have ramifications for sports well outside of football.
09-26-2019 07:50 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Scheduling Czar
With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game
5 P5 games
2 P5/G5 games

AWAY:
5 P5 games
09-26-2019 08:18 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game
5 P5 games
2 P5/G5 games

AWAY:
5 P5 games

In the CTE era they are not going to add a 13th game to the schedule, especially one that is essentially meaningless.
09-26-2019 08:43 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game

There would be zero interest in a pre-season game, IMO, from fans, coaches, anybody.
09-26-2019 08:47 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game

There would be zero interest in a pre-season game, IMO, from fans, coaches, anybody.

And you would be wrong on all counts. Coaches would love a real contest that didn't really matter to see exactly what they might have missed in preparation and who were game time performers and who were not.

AD's would love to have a guaranteed 7th home game and two sport players would love to be able to run track, play baseball, or finish a basketball season without having Spring practice.

The coaches would also love to have a bit of free time in the Spring after signing day to spend with family.

The Spring Game is a tired meaningless scrimmage and the practice spent prior to the Spring game would be more meaningful tacked on to the time allotted for practice prior to the start of the season.

And while those tickets wouldn't be as expensive as the regular season tickets the local merchants would love larger crowds than the Spring game brings and tell me one event in late August it would compete with? Every fan is hankering to see what their team will look like and if that game is against a local FCS or G5 school it will be an event and the fans will turn out.

The upside of it is fairly significant compared to simply having a meaningless Spring scrimmage with a long lay off.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 09:43 AM by JRsec.)
09-26-2019 09:43 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 09:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game

There would be zero interest in a pre-season game, IMO, from fans, coaches, anybody.

And you would be wrong on all counts. Coaches would love a real contest that didn't really matter to see exactly what they might have missed in preparation and who were game time performers and who were not.

AD's would love to have a guaranteed 7th home game and two sport players would love to be able to run track, play baseball, or finish a basketball season without having Spring practice.

The coaches would also love to have a bit of free time in the Spring after signing day to spend with family.

The Spring Game is a tired meaningless scrimmage and the practice spent prior to the Spring game would be more meaningful tacked on to the time allotted for practice prior to the start of the season.

And while those tickets wouldn't be as expensive as the regular season tickets the local merchants would love larger crowds than the Spring game brings and tell me one event in late August it would compete with? Every fan is hankering to see what their team will look like and if that game is against a local FCS or G5 school it will be an event and the fans will turn out.

The upside of it is fairly significant compared to simply having a meaningless Spring scrimmage with a long lay off.

Bolded point #1 counterpoint - the football/baseball players would have to forgo the wooden bat collegiate summer leagues because summer camp for football would open in early July, so I don't think the football/baseball players would be in favor of it.

AD's aren't going to be in favor of it because a lot of times they hold other athletic contests after the spring game and usually they are some of the better attended games of the year because some of the football crowd double dips.

Bolded point #2 counterpoint - I would imagine that since the overwhelming amount of coaches out there have school aged children they would prefer their time off be when the children are on summer break So that they could spend even more time with them and not deny the children the chance to go to the beach, mountains, Disney, etc. because Daddy is working.
09-26-2019 09:58 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 09:58 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 09:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game

There would be zero interest in a pre-season game, IMO, from fans, coaches, anybody.

And you would be wrong on all counts. Coaches would love a real contest that didn't really matter to see exactly what they might have missed in preparation and who were game time performers and who were not.

AD's would love to have a guaranteed 7th home game and two sport players would love to be able to run track, play baseball, or finish a basketball season without having Spring practice.

The coaches would also love to have a bit of free time in the Spring after signing day to spend with family.

The Spring Game is a tired meaningless scrimmage and the practice spent prior to the Spring game would be more meaningful tacked on to the time allotted for practice prior to the start of the season.

And while those tickets wouldn't be as expensive as the regular season tickets the local merchants would love larger crowds than the Spring game brings and tell me one event in late August it would compete with? Every fan is hankering to see what their team will look like and if that game is against a local FCS or G5 school it will be an event and the fans will turn out.

The upside of it is fairly significant compared to simply having a meaningless Spring scrimmage with a long lay off.

Bolded point #1 counterpoint - the football/baseball players would have to forgo the wooden bat collegiate summer leagues because summer camp for football would open in early July, so I don't think the football/baseball players would be in favor of it.

AD's aren't going to be in favor of it because a lot of times they hold other athletic contests after the spring game and usually they are some of the better attended games of the year because some of the football crowd double dips.

Bolded point #2 counterpoint - I would imagine that since the overwhelming amount of coaches out there have school aged children they would prefer their time off be when the children are on summer break So that they could spend even more time with them and not deny the children the chance to go to the beach, mountains, Disney, etc. because Daddy is working.

Aren't we talking about a one-week difference in the schedule?

And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?
09-26-2019 10:04 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

College baseball players with MLB aspirations want to play in summer leagues. Doesn't matter that most fans don't know about those leagues and don't follow them.

What matters is that MLB scouts follow those games, and it's important exposure to the scouts. The very best players in college, the ones guaranteed to go in the first round of the MLB draft, don't need the additional visibility. But summer league can impact the draft prospects of players who are not already at the top of the wish lists of MLB teams.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 10:19 AM by Wedge.)
09-26-2019 10:18 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 09:58 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 09:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 08:18 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With a week 0 or 00 FCS preseason game and a mandate for 10 P5 games, a school could still play as many as 8 home games a year:

HOME:
1 FCS pre-season game

There would be zero interest in a pre-season game, IMO, from fans, coaches, anybody.

And you would be wrong on all counts. Coaches would love a real contest that didn't really matter to see exactly what they might have missed in preparation and who were game time performers and who were not.

AD's would love to have a guaranteed 7th home game and two sport players would love to be able to run track, play baseball, or finish a basketball season without having Spring practice.

The coaches would also love to have a bit of free time in the Spring after signing day to spend with family.

The Spring Game is a tired meaningless scrimmage and the practice spent prior to the Spring game would be more meaningful tacked on to the time allotted for practice prior to the start of the season.

And while those tickets wouldn't be as expensive as the regular season tickets the local merchants would love larger crowds than the Spring game brings and tell me one event in late August it would compete with? Every fan is hankering to see what their team will look like and if that game is against a local FCS or G5 school it will be an event and the fans will turn out.

The upside of it is fairly significant compared to simply having a meaningless Spring scrimmage with a long lay off.

Bolded point #1 counterpoint - the football/baseball players would have to forgo the wooden bat collegiate summer leagues because summer camp for football would open in early July, so I don't think the football/baseball players would be in favor of it.

AD's aren't going to be in favor of it because a lot of times they hold other athletic contests after the spring game and usually they are some of the better attended games of the year because some of the football crowd double dips.

Bolded point #2 counterpoint - I would imagine that since the overwhelming amount of coaches out there have school aged children they would prefer their time off be when the children are on summer break So that they could spend even more time with them and not deny the children the chance to go to the beach, mountains, Disney, etc. because Daddy is working.

The actual college baseball season is more important than the wooden bat league. It's the former that is impinged for the football/baseball players.

The only Spring Sport that is better attended because of the Spring Game is usually 1 softball or 1 baseball game, both of which are better attended at SEC and Big 12 and PAC venues. Basketball first schools don't benefit from Spring Games and Football First fans don't show up in massive numbers for a late season basketball game unless it is a rare year where the basketball team is relevant.

Coaches take vacations when they can and when they do they excuse their kids from school to take them and that's if it doesn't coincide with Spring Break.

I find this funny since it was Dabo who came up with the idea of moving the game to mid to late August.

The changes to football season are coming. They will be piecemealed in so that they can be milked for revenue. But with a looming downturn in football interest (think 2035 when Boomer's will be a non factor and Millennials simply aren't as interested or cash flush enough to participate) the game to keep viewership up will be as many content games as possible.

We'll move from 9P games to 10 fairly shortly (think next contract period in 5 years) and from there the push will be to 12P games over the next decade. That 7th home game will be too important to pass on for AD's, who by the way don't care one way or the other for sports that are revenue losers whether another 2 to 3 hundred attend an event after or before the Spring Game.

August (actually it's pretty rough for them from July until August) is the biggest dead time for ESPN or anyone not carrying MLB. The only thing happening at that time is the LLWS. They are going to get what they want when Boomer money starts drying up and AD's have to find new revenue, or enhanced revenue streams. It is why you see major campuses everywhere increasing the building of dorms and apartments and increasing enrollment at a time that would seem to contraindicate expansion. It's also why you are going to see nationwide what has already begun in places like Louisiana and is underway in Alabama, the downsizing of Higher Educational facilities and the streamlining of administration for existing models, and the corporatization of professional schools like Veterinary Medicine, and Human Medicine, all of which is underway now. The big schools are about to get bigger and the small schools are going to be re-purposed, and some of them are going to go away. And the large state schools are all about to be in competition with each other like never before for students. The demographics are palpable all over the world, especially in Asia.

The GI Bill and the Baby Boom drove the swelling of all of these smaller schools and the creation of new ones. So like streams swelling in periods of torrential rain, these streams are about to dry up and it's happening globally. Southern schools have an advantage in that our cost of living and cost of education is lower so our build up is bigger as we prepare to increase out of state enrollment as well.

I list these things because all of it will be playing into the change that is already underway in preparation for a post Boomer world. And when Boomers are gone the other industry that will be hurt is professional sports. Getting ready to pay college players in some way is another part of the transition that is underway. Pay TV will keep all sports viable for awhile. But the ticket sales angle is T-10 years from crisis.

The networks aren't going to be caught flatfooted. College sports, which are much cheaper to manage and sell, with some incentives for quality players, will be great live entertainment options to sell, without having massive salary overhead, and while avoiding the self held rights of most professional sports.

And as this all happens, small local schools that survive will still need that big buy game to fund what they do. So that 13th game, whether preseason or not, is going to come, and come at the behest of the schools, the states that fund them, and the media that pays for them. And as this happens the networks will have greater leverage to shape not only the post season, but to set standards they desire for the regular season as well. So buckle up.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 10:38 AM by JRsec.)
09-26-2019 10:25 AM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 10:18 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

College baseball players with MLB aspirations want to play in summer leagues. Doesn't matter that most fans don't know about those leagues and don't follow them.

What matters is that MLB scouts follow those games, and it's important exposure to the scouts. The very best players in college, the ones guaranteed to go in the first round of the MLB draft, don't need the additional visibility. But summer league can impact the draft prospects of players who are not already at the top of the wish lists of MLB teams.

That's good info. Thank you.

How many dual-sport players are we talking about? I see 1 or 2 BYU football players who are also on the baseball team most years. And one of these dual-sports players is selected in the MLB draft may be once every 4 or 5 years. Do other universities see more football-baseball dual-sport players that are preparing for the MLB draft?
09-26-2019 10:56 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 10:18 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

College baseball players with MLB aspirations want to play in summer leagues. Doesn't matter that most fans don't know about those leagues and don't follow them.

What matters is that MLB scouts follow those games, and it's important exposure to the scouts. The very best players in college, the ones guaranteed to go in the first round of the MLB draft, don't need the additional visibility. But summer league can impact the draft prospects of players who are not already at the top of the wish lists of MLB teams.

We have scouts at every SEC regular season baseball game. They stand behind home plate with their jugs gun and used to sit in our area with the visiting players parents.

It's just that they have more personal access in the Cape Cod league and others.

And Y-Not we may be talking about 1 or 2 players at most that are dual sport athletes for baseball/football or track/football, or basketball/football (where it is even less).

But the ones that have done that at Auburn were Frank Thomas and Bo Jackson to name just a couple.

The bottom line is that there is no real need for the overlap and there are many extraneous forces that are going to come into play in deciding what direction these matters take.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 11:08 AM by JRsec.)
09-26-2019 11:03 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Scheduling Czar
Also, especially for hitters, scouts like to look at college players in summer league to see how well their hitting stats hold up when they're using wood bats and all of their at bats are against pitchers who are likely to be at least solid minor league pitchers.

The dual-sport athletes who are leaning toward a pro career are going to choose the sport in which they'll go pro if there is any conflict during their college career, so yes there's no need to build an entire sport's schedule around them. There are many examples of athletes who de-emphasized football in college because their baseball prospects were brighter. And in the other direction, two recent prominent examples of dual-sport athletes who chose to emphasize football over baseball are Russell Wilson and Kyler Murray.
09-26-2019 11:32 AM
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