I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

Lots of sexual allegations are coming out. Cries for help... When will CMU pull his nice new benches from the stadium? When do you go from being a fan of the best WR in the league, to realizing he has a problem and is not a moral being?

This doesn't go just for AB. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but wow the league acted hard on him compared to the limbo AB is in now.

I know AB's news as of now is just allegations, but they are building by the day. It went from an organization problem in Pitt, to a helmet issue in Oakland, to a frost bite foot injury in the offseason, to sexual assault of a trainer, to wooing an artist and threatening their family. Woah...

I can see from the Sammy V stuff, fans here have made their mind on cheaters. What would you do if AB attended Toledo in college? Do you get rid of his photos in the stadium? Do you let it play out? Do you let him speak to the team? When do you become not proud of an ex school great?

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

Lots of sexual allegations are coming out. Cries for help... When will CMU pull his nice new benches from the stadium? When do you go from being a fan of the best WR in the league, to realizing he has a problem and is not a moral being?

This doesn't go just for AB. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but wow the league acted hard on him compared to the limbo AB is in now.

I know AB's news as of now is just allegations, but they are building by the day. It went from an organization problem in Pitt, to a helmet issue in Oakland, to a frost bite foot injury in the offseason, to sexual assault of a trainer, to wooing an artist and threatening their family. Woah...

I can see from the Sammy V stuff, fans here have made their mind on cheaters. What would you do if AB attended Toledo in college? Do you get rid of his photos in the stadium? Do you let it play out? Do you let him speak to the team? When do you become not proud of an ex school great?

i wouldn't let him speak to the team that's for damn sure. people are not just 1 thing. some people have different masks and personalities. AB whom i've met briefly and worked with for a few hours at a pro bowl volunteer activity is probably half brilliant/half crazy. he also seems to be manipulative and controlling of women and possibly is a rapist. i think you keep your distance publically, use your connections to reach out to a member of your family privately, and wait for the truth come out with the cases being investigated.

you make the kareem hunt analogy, with which i largely agree (some here completely disagree with me on that), in that kareem was immediately on the spot banished from the league right before the playoffs for a video coming out of him being out of line with someone else who was completely out of line while both were drunk.

the case was hastily adjudicated on the visuals (of which most people saw heavily edited versions) instead of the evidence. while the same league plays tyreek hill and many others who have been involved in or accused of far worse actions of abuse of women and children including sexual violence that don't come with video footage. AB got a second chance with the super bowl champs (whose owner just got off with a love tap on the wrist for solicitation) within a week of losing his job with the Raiders. this is with an ongoing rape and harassment case.

ultimately, kareem's harsher punishment may be to his benefit. he had it all taken away quickly and had to admit his issues before he really (as far as we know) hurt anybody. and he will come back with his hometown team and his controversy will have mostly passed by the time he comes back fresh in midseason.

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but I AM.

FYP.

Some people have convictions of their ideas. Some slip and slide like the worst politician trying to have appearance of an opinion but trying to keep the deniability plausible.

How "conservative" does one have to be to have these behaviors put a person on his last limb? How "liberal" (or not conservative) do you have to be to let him slide until or even after the player causes true harm to someone or himself? I'm not sure how you define a persons' conservativeness to have any relationship to their opinion of someone beating on another person except in defense? Rhetorical.

The idea that AB's behavior is related to the hit by Vonteze Brown several years ago, does that change ANY of that circus? He's on the street because of sexual assault allegations, not for being bizarre. Lucifer Effect? Not far enough out on the limb to take him out of action? Would these actions of been okay if against a man? Should we feel more comfortable sitting on seats donated by Charles Manson if they were donated before he had done harm?


History IS revisionist. History is based upon facts known at the time and new facts, even new opinions and new accusations real or made up as they come out.

Good or Bad?

There are cultures and religions in which it is against faith to put people on a pedestal. Actions matter.

"We" donate to put our name on a building or on a room. "We" believe that is how you encourage others to donate likewise. In our culture, I think that's a correct statement.

I think the bigger problem here is that anyone knows who donated those seats.

(09-21-2019 04:39 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but I AM.

FYP.

Some people have convictions of their ideas. Some slip and slide like the worst politician trying to have appearance of an opinion but trying to keep the deniability plausible.

How "conservative" does one have to be to have these behaviors put a person on his last limb? How "liberal" (or not conservative) do you have to be to let him slide until or even after the player causes true harm to someone or himself? I'm not sure how you define a persons' conservativeness to have any relationship to their opinion of someone beating on another person except in defense? Rhetorical.

The idea that AB's behavior is related to the hit by Vonteze Brown several years ago, does that change ANY of that circus? He's on the street because of sexual assault allegations, not for being bizarre. Lucifer Effect? Not far enough out on the limb to take him out of action? Would these actions of been okay if against a man? Should we feel more comfortable sitting on seats donated by Charles Manson if they were donated before he had done harm?


History IS revisionist. History is based upon facts known at the time and new facts, even new opinions and new accusations real or made up as they come out.

Good or Bad?

There are cultures and religions in which it is against faith to put people on a pedestal. Actions matter.

"We" donate to put our name on a building or on a room. "We" believe that is how you encourage others to donate likewise. In our culture, I think that's a correct statement.

I think the bigger problem here is that anyone knows who donated those seats.

I don't understand most of your points because I can't decipher your satire from objective POV. But I'll take a shot.

I meant "conservative" to the fact that Kareem was smeared by the media, and scourged as "guilty" simply because there was video... Many like Terry Bradshaw, tipped their chin up and said (paraphrasing and satire) "I'VE SEEN ENOUGH! THIS IS A BAD MAN WHO SHOULD NOT EVER PLAY AGAIN. HE SHOULD BE REMOVED INDEFINENTLY. HIS PLAYING AT TOLEDO MUST BE REASONING FOR HIS BAFOONERY AND AWFUL ACTIONS. I, MY FRIEND, WAS RAISED MUCH BETTER THAN THIS!" Terry... You just literally smeared the character of a man based on a cut up 30 second video, without context. In a power position like he has, that carries WEIGHT with the public, you MUST be better than that! Because people who actually know the whole story, don't have that power position or platform to plain give facts.

Terry Bradshaw did not give one inch of research or to even care that this clip released to the public, was MEANT to smear him. If it was an unedited version, first released to the team, then to the public... Fine. But nope! It cut off minutes of punches of a drunk lady screaming profanities at him. How is that fair? It even spliced together the "aggressive movements" Kareem made toward her, cutting out much of her protaganizing. This is CHARACTER ASSASSINATION by the media.

He gets put on the commish exempt list, and the police SAW this video months prior, and did not take action... No lawsuits? Yet fired from a team (he lied, so understandable), but then NOT let able to play for another team, and finally SUSPENDED for 8 games the following year? Comparatively there is a vast difference in the way Roger Gooddell handles these things from one issue to another. That's the problem.

Some folks reading my post automatically take me for a Kareem apologist, or someone who takes lightly the harm of a woman... When objectively, I just think every situation should be fairly evaluated, and a rightous punishment should come for every action, accusation, or proof of breaking the law. I would never frucking ever ever ever hit a woman. What Kareem did was wrong! Taboot, he should not have lied and he was cut because of it! But his entire career totally smeared by the league and power figures, just because a video INTENDED TO INCRIMINATE HUNT, was released to the public... Something is wrong there.

Now this has little to do with AB or his situation. My reference originally to Kareem was an example of an ex Toledo player who has been involved with Scandal. I have not removed Hunts name from the back of my Toledo fandom because I believe he gets a second chance to show the type of man he really is. The type of man Toledo helped raise him to be. If I was a CMU fan? The gaining accusations would be making me take a step aside to see what is actually going on there.

(09-21-2019 06:31 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:39 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but I AM.

FYP.

Some people have convictions of their ideas. Some slip and slide like the worst politician trying to have appearance of an opinion but trying to keep the deniability plausible.

How "conservative" does one have to be to have these behaviors put a person on his last limb? How "liberal" (or not conservative) do you have to be to let him slide until or even after the player causes true harm to someone or himself? I'm not sure how you define a persons' conservativeness to have any relationship to their opinion of someone beating on another person except in defense? Rhetorical.

The idea that AB's behavior is related to the hit by Vonteze Brown several years ago, does that change ANY of that circus? He's on the street because of sexual assault allegations, not for being bizarre. Lucifer Effect? Not far enough out on the limb to take him out of action? Would these actions of been okay if against a man? Should we feel more comfortable sitting on seats donated by Charles Manson if they were donated before he had done harm?


History IS revisionist. History is based upon facts known at the time and new facts, even new opinions and new accusations real or made up as they come out.

Good or Bad?

There are cultures and religions in which it is against faith to put people on a pedestal. Actions matter.

"We" donate to put our name on a building or on a room. "We" believe that is how you encourage others to donate likewise. In our culture, I think that's a correct statement.

I think the bigger problem here is that anyone knows who donated those seats.

I don't understand most of your points because I can't decipher your satire from objective POV.

There was no satire. How AB's contributions to CMU, like contributions to Universities that now have buildings being renamed, will be viewed by a dynamic History. New facts. New views. Cultural changes. Viewpoint changes. What was called conservative/liberal...., is now something else.

Ideals tend to be more stable than fame worship. If I'm donating, no one needs to know who it came from. I've supported my ideals. What becomes of me makes no difference to how those donations are seen in the future.

It is definitely a fact that people will judge you more harshly if they see your misdeeds with their own eyes (on video). Hearing about it just doesn't have the same impact. This is not rational. We need to try to be more consistent, not just go with our gut.

(09-21-2019 09:29 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 06:31 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:39 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but I AM.

FYP.

Some people have convictions of their ideas. Some slip and slide like the worst politician trying to have appearance of an opinion but trying to keep the deniability plausible.

How "conservative" does one have to be to have these behaviors put a person on his last limb? How "liberal" (or not conservative) do you have to be to let him slide until or even after the player causes true harm to someone or himself? I'm not sure how you define a persons' conservativeness to have any relationship to their opinion of someone beating on another person except in defense? Rhetorical.

The idea that AB's behavior is related to the hit by Vonteze Brown several years ago, does that change ANY of that circus? He's on the street because of sexual assault allegations, not for being bizarre. Lucifer Effect? Not far enough out on the limb to take him out of action? Would these actions of been okay if against a man? Should we feel more comfortable sitting on seats donated by Charles Manson if they were donated before he had done harm?


History IS revisionist. History is based upon facts known at the time and new facts, even new opinions and new accusations real or made up as they come out.

Good or Bad?

There are cultures and religions in which it is against faith to put people on a pedestal. Actions matter.

"We" donate to put our name on a building or on a room. "We" believe that is how you encourage others to donate likewise. In our culture, I think that's a correct statement.

I think the bigger problem here is that anyone knows who donated those seats.

I don't understand most of your points because I can't decipher your satire from objective POV.

There was no satire. How AB's contributions to CMU, like contributions to Universities that now have buildings being renamed, will be viewed by a dynamic History. New facts. New views. Cultural changes. Viewpoint changes. What was called conservative/liberal...., is now something else.

Ideals tend to be more stable than fame worship. If I'm donating, no one needs to know who it came from. I've supported my ideals. What becomes of me makes no difference to how those donations are seen in the future.

Okay from the donation stand point to a program, yes, money is money. But big benches with AB84 on them exist at CMU as of this season. If AB goes to jail for sexual misconduct, rape, or threatening family members of said person... What do you do if you are CMU? Keep the donation, and get rid of the signature now connected with filthy deeds? It would be come quite the eye sore for an otherwise decent program.... Right? I don't know the answer, I'm just curious. Because if he was convicted (which he is not), I would remove my fandom from said player. His on field play would be appreciated in a historical context, but I would not buy a historical jersey after a conviction... my question is. Where do you draw the line, and will CMU?

From the CMU message board:

Posted on Sep 16th, 2:44 PM, , User Since 62 months ago, User Post Count: 187

Sep 16th, 2:44 PM
62 months

187

Not very flattering. I hope the benches he bought don't get repossessed.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the...spartandhp

A lot a very good opinions posted on this board about AB and Kareem. Good stuff to all. Kareem knows he is on a short leash and I am hoping he gets God in his life, if he has not done so already, move on, and stay a good citizen. He can make a lot more money if he sets a excellent tone.

(09-21-2019 09:48 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 09:29 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 06:31 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:39 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 12:19 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I've been seeing the AB stuff lately and it really seems like he's messed up in the head... possibly untreated injury related.

. Toledo grads have run into problems from time to time. Kareem is probably on the last limb for some conservative fans. But man he took quite the punishment from the league. And for what? A season and a half, for a lady yelling racist remarks at him, then him retaliating brutishly (on camera), yet not actually excessively harming her. I don't want to be that guy who defends an act of harm on a woman, but I AM.

FYP.

Some people have convictions of their ideas. Some slip and slide like the worst politician trying to have appearance of an opinion but trying to keep the deniability plausible.

How "conservative" does one have to be to have these behaviors put a person on his last limb? How "liberal" (or not conservative) do you have to be to let him slide until or even after the player causes true harm to someone or himself? I'm not sure how you define a persons' conservativeness to have any relationship to their opinion of someone beating on another person except in defense? Rhetorical.

The idea that AB's behavior is related to the hit by Vonteze Brown several years ago, does that change ANY of that circus? He's on the street because of sexual assault allegations, not for being bizarre. Lucifer Effect? Not far enough out on the limb to take him out of action? Would these actions of been okay if against a man? Should we feel more comfortable sitting on seats donated by Charles Manson if they were donated before he had done harm?


History IS revisionist. History is based upon facts known at the time and new facts, even new opinions and new accusations real or made up as they come out.

Good or Bad?

There are cultures and religions in which it is against faith to put people on a pedestal. Actions matter.

"We" donate to put our name on a building or on a room. "We" believe that is how you encourage others to donate likewise. In our culture, I think that's a correct statement.

I think the bigger problem here is that anyone knows who donated those seats.

I don't understand most of your points because I can't decipher your satire from objective POV.

There was no satire. How AB's contributions to CMU, like contributions to Universities that now have buildings being renamed, will be viewed by a dynamic History. New facts. New views. Cultural changes. Viewpoint changes. What was called conservative/liberal...., is now something else.

Ideals tend to be more stable than fame worship. If I'm donating, no one needs to know who it came from. I've supported my ideals. What becomes of me makes no difference to how those donations are seen in the future.

Okay from the donation stand point to a program, yes, money is money. But big benches with AB84 on them exist at CMU as of this season. If AB goes to jail for sexual misconduct, rape, or threatening family members of said person... What do you do if you are CMU? Keep the donation, and get rid of the signature now connected with filthy deeds? It would be come quite the eye sore for an otherwise decent program.... Right? I don't know the answer, I'm just curious. Because if he was convicted (which he is not), I would remove my fandom from said player. His on field play would be appreciated in a historical context, but I would not buy a historical jersey after a conviction... my question is. Where do you draw the line, and will CMU?

The high road is hard to find. I believe you should ask the donor what to do, give them the opportunity to find the signs.

Purdue was in this boat, a donation to the Management school from John Schnatter. They removed the name and offered to return the one of 8 million already delivered. This they did. Ball St kept theirs.

Is there a picture of Kareem in the Glass bowl, been a while since I have seen a game in the glass bowl. I am planning to be there for homecoming, love afternoon football. I stop at Stanley's, pick up some polish lunch meat, have a pick-nick on campus and go to the game.

Injury related, background related, substance related, birth defect related, etc. can always be factors in a persons behavior, but there is a point where the seriousness of the wrong cannot be disregarded by society.

AB has certainly had a checkered past in the NFL, but probably 90% of it was football or business related and the NFL handled it--of course, how appropriately is arguable. I haven't followed it very closely, but I read that he was accused of sexually assaulting a trainer 3 times. Was it the same trainer, and if so, how does such a thing happen 3 times?? I can't imagine such a thing happening more than once. I certainly don't support the behavior, but 3 times?? To me, something is fishy there.

The league has to decide what they are going to do about AB's career.
The legal aspect has to play out--innocent until proven guilty.
As far as CMU, if they haven't pulled the benches yet, I would think a conviction--on top of everything else--would cause them to give a pretty negative impression in the stadium.
As far as the money, I guess it would depend on the level of outcry from the boosters. I don't think he could have donated enough money that it would ruin CMU to return it.
As a fan, if AB had been a Rocket I think my fandom would have evaporated. I don't have a Kareem Hunt jersey, but if I did, I'd probably be somewhat hesitant to wear it right now, but that's just me--not judging anyone else.
As far as Kareem, I do believe people can change and it sounds like he is working on it. I hope he is sincere and has success. The more visibility of him doing positive things, the better I think. From a fan's perspective, I haven't drawn a line yet, but he's on thin ice with me. I never imagined he could behave like that.

Finally, I guess there is something to be said about not being too quick to install memorabilia of a player in the stadium.

Toledo Football 1st AB had a business relationship with a former CMU athlete who was a friend in college. she trained him as a pro and their relationship was also personal to some degree. there is no criminal case there but she alleged in a civil complaint that he assaulted or harassed her on a couple of occasions and on a third outright raped her. she also offered to settle out of court for 2 million dollars. DA declined to prosecute but we know that many rapes do not get prosecuted even when women come forward to authorities. AB then got into a text fight with another married female acquaintance which included a photo that was interpreted as threatening her kids. that's what got him booted from the Pats. there are other cases of weird behavior not involving violence toward women as well.

as far as conservative or liberal those are clumsy categories that mean different things to different people and certainly don't encompass many folks views. obviously, there has been a 60 year movement on the left to support women's rights, stop sexual violence, and advocate against domestic abuse and violence. however, plenty of people who wouldn't consider themselves leftists, feminists or liberals agree and support those things too. there is clearly the high level issues with a president who has glorified womanizing in his own life and celebrated the idea of sexual conquest even while married. the kavanaugh situation adds to it, but that was equally about right wing politics and if kavanaugh was accused of mistreating animals, stealing money from his frat or jumping black kids as an adolescent or whatever there still would have been a political fight over his confirmation. it's also not like anyone on the clumsily categorized liberal or left side doesn't have issues of sexual abuse or violence. we know that wherever there are men in positions of power there is too often abuse, regardless of the politics.

AB reenrolled at CMU (on-line). Got to get points for that.

(09-21-2019 02:55 PM)pono Wrote:  Toledo Football 1st AB had a business relationship with a former CMU athlete who was a friend in college. she trained him as a pro and their relationship was also personal to some degree. there is no criminal case there but she alleged in a civil complaint that he assaulted or harassed her on a couple of occasions and on a third outright raped her. she also offered to settle out of court for 2 million dollars. DA declined to prosecute but we know that many rapes do not get prosecuted even when women come forward to authorities. AB then got into a text fight with another married female acquaintance which included a photo that was interpreted as threatening her kids. that's what got him booted from the Pats. there are other cases of weird behavior not involving violence toward women as well.

as far as conservative or liberal those are clumsy categories that mean different things to different people and certainly don't encompass many folks views. obviously, there has been a 60 year movement on the left to support women's rights, stop sexual violence, and advocate against domestic abuse and violence. however, plenty of people who wouldn't consider themselves leftists, feminists or liberals agree and support those things too. there is clearly the high level issues with a president who has glorified womanizing in his own life and celebrated the idea of sexual conquest even while married. the kavanaugh situation adds to it, but that was equally about right wing politics and if kavanaugh was accused of mistreating animals, stealing money from his frat or jumping black kids as an adolescent or whatever there still would have been a political fight over his confirmation. it's also not like anyone on the clumsily categorized liberal or left side doesn't have issues of sexual abuse or violence. we know that wherever there are men in positions of power there is too often abuse, regardless of the politics.

Obviously he has a history of bad behavior. I don't admire that.

As far as the second paragraph, I think the politics are for a different forum, but I suppose maybe Antonio was born to late to be able to benefit from the fine moral examples of Slick Willy or the Kennedys. From what I've experienced in school, in the work place, and in general, there are many people, men and women, who behave badly. As far as from positions of power, I have seen that too.

So guess who's A New Student at CMU.

BGSU is about to play a post-Georgia game Notre Dame. And my morality over what's about to happen to them isn't even close to threatening my fandom level.

Does that make me a bad person?

Of course, I don't want anyone hurt. But triple digits would be fun.