(02-13-2020 03:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 03:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I still think the rules change that a lot of folks have kind of glossed over but is huge- is the pitchers going back to 15 day IL/option period. It's not getting anywhere near the pub of the 3 batter rule- but I think it's going to have a far larger role.

Both will affect Davey...


And yes, prevents teams from claiming fake injuries (every pitcher has muscle soreness after an outing), to bring up fresh arms.

yeah, the days of the daily restocking of pens for fresh arms are done and over with.

(02-13-2020 02:40 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 09:44 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 02:30 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 02:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  (not helped by the Hamels news today).

Just saw that - never good when your shoulder hurts BEFORE spring training.

aw...sonunva....well, Ian Anderson and the rest of the younguns may get a shot earlier this year than expected.

saw the following about it:

“He’s going to be behind,” (Braves Manager Brian) Snitker said. “He irritated his (shoulder) doing some weighted ball exercises over the course of the winter. So that’s going to set him behind. It’s nothing I think will be major. We’ll evaluate him in three weeks and see where he’s at.”

Here's hoping King Felix makes a comeback.

that'd be nice, too. But Braves are gonna need all that young pitching still on the way up.

(02-13-2020 04:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 03:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 03:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I still think the rules change that a lot of folks have kind of glossed over but is huge- is the pitchers going back to 15 day IL/option period. It's not getting anywhere near the pub of the 3 batter rule- but I think it's going to have a far larger role.

Both will affect Davey...


And yes, prevents teams from claiming fake injuries (every pitcher has muscle soreness after an outing), to bring up fresh arms.

yeah, the days of the daily restocking of pens for fresh arms are done and over with.

stever thinks of it as ‘The Friedman Loophole’

(02-13-2020 11:34 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 04:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 03:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 03:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I still think the rules change that a lot of folks have kind of glossed over but is huge- is the pitchers going back to 15 day IL/option period. It's not getting anywhere near the pub of the 3 batter rule- but I think it's going to have a far larger role.

Both will affect Davey...


And yes, prevents teams from claiming fake injuries (every pitcher has muscle soreness after an outing), to bring up fresh arms.

yeah, the days of the daily restocking of pens for fresh arms are done and over with.

stever thinks of it as ‘The Friedman Loophole’

he's definitely the one who exploited it by far the most.

Two questions about the rule change announcement:

Does any player other than Ohtani qualify for the two-way player designation?

Is MLB prohibiting non-pitchers from pitching, outside of extra innings and 6+ run blowouts?

(02-14-2020 12:31 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Two questions about the rule change announcement:

Does any player other than Ohtani qualify for the two-way player designation?

Is MLB prohibiting non-pitchers from pitching, outside of extra innings and 6+ run blowouts?

I think a few others qualify but not positive...

yes to your 2nd question.

(02-13-2020 05:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-13-2020 02:40 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 09:44 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 02:30 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(02-12-2020 02:12 PM)stever20 Wrote:  (not helped by the Hamels news today).

Just saw that - never good when your shoulder hurts BEFORE spring training.

aw...sonunva....well, Ian Anderson and the rest of the younguns may get a shot earlier this year than expected.

saw the following about it:

“He’s going to be behind,” (Braves Manager Brian) Snitker said. “He irritated his (shoulder) doing some weighted ball exercises over the course of the winter. So that’s going to set him behind. It’s nothing I think will be major. We’ll evaluate him in three weeks and see where he’s at.”

Here's hoping King Felix makes a comeback.

that'd be nice, too. But Braves are gonna need all that young pitching still on the way up.

True, but I worry about the success/failure ratio of using so many young guys.

They need development either way, but I was looking forward to the Braves being in a position to make a splash this year rather than hoping the rotation gets filled along the way.

Someone doesn't like some of the new MLB rule changes...

Some of the New Roster Rules Are Garbage

Quote:Given that the proliferation of position player pitching appearances over the past few years is a reminder of the increasing instance of noncompetitive games and noncompetitive teams, you can understand why MLB would want to limit them instead of actually addressing the underlying issues that disincentivize winning. But like so much else offered up during commissioner Rob Manfred’s regime, this still feels like a solution in search of a problem. The difference between 70 position player pitching appearances and 85 is one fewer every 12 days. Unless you’re a weirdo who keeps tabs on such things for professional purposes, you’d never notice.

As for the two-way players, the rule’s requirements — again, that’s 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position (including DH) with at least three PA per game — means that only Ohtani qualifies as such a player, and that’s because of an exemption in the form of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season; recall that due to his late-2018 Tommy John surgery, he did not pitch last year. Neither Lorenzen nor Walsh would qualify as true two-way players under this rule, which means that unless their respective teams wanted to adhere to the position players pitching limits, they would count towards the 13-pitcher allowance. That’s no big deal for Lorenzen, whose primary job is on the mound, but it’s bad news for Walsh unless he starts the season rostered as a pitcher, gets his 20 mound appearances in, and then gets his 20 position player reps in; reversing the order of those two steps, given the blowout and extra-inning limitations, would take too long.

Quote:As with the new position player pitching rule, by itself the two-way player rule appears to be overly restrictive but won’t amount to much. What the two rules do in the context of the whole slate, however, is create complicated exceptions to the 26-man/13-pitcher roster rules, doing away with the cases where teams carry 14 true pitchers, which becomes less practical given the three-batter minimum anyway. With that restriction in place, I’m not sure any of these additional rules is actually necessary. They’re just one more way for the Manfred regime to drain a little bit of fun out of the game and to look busy while failing to address more pressing concerns.

(02-14-2020 03:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Someone doesn't like some of the new MLB rule changes...

Some of the New Roster Rules Are Garbage

Quote:Given that the proliferation of position player pitching appearances over the past few years is a reminder of the increasing instance of noncompetitive games and noncompetitive teams, you can understand why MLB would want to limit them instead of actually addressing the underlying issues that disincentivize winning. But like so much else offered up during commissioner Rob Manfred’s regime, this still feels like a solution in search of a problem. The difference between 70 position player pitching appearances and 85 is one fewer every 12 days. Unless you’re a weirdo who keeps tabs on such things for professional purposes, you’d never notice.

As for the two-way players, the rule’s requirements — again, that’s 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position (including DH) with at least three PA per game — means that only Ohtani qualifies as such a player, and that’s because of an exemption in the form of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season; recall that due to his late-2018 Tommy John surgery, he did not pitch last year. Neither Lorenzen nor Walsh would qualify as true two-way players under this rule, which means that unless their respective teams wanted to adhere to the position players pitching limits, they would count towards the 13-pitcher allowance. That’s no big deal for Lorenzen, whose primary job is on the mound, but it’s bad news for Walsh unless he starts the season rostered as a pitcher, gets his 20 mound appearances in, and then gets his 20 position player reps in; reversing the order of those two steps, given the blowout and extra-inning limitations, would take too long.

Quote:As with the new position player pitching rule, by itself the two-way player rule appears to be overly restrictive but won’t amount to much. What the two rules do in the context of the whole slate, however, is create complicated exceptions to the 26-man/13-pitcher roster rules, doing away with the cases where teams carry 14 true pitchers, which becomes less practical given the three-batter minimum anyway. With that restriction in place, I’m not sure any of these additional rules is actually necessary. They’re just one more way for the Manfred regime to drain a little bit of fun out of the game and to look busy while failing to address more pressing concerns.

The players were just as big on stemming the tide on position players pitching....

Also just as big is the uniform getting everyone 13 pitchers and the 15 day IL rules, which are going to force teams to have a long type guy on their staff- something they haven't needed with the ability to shuttle relievers in and out every 10 days.

I like the 3-batter minimum.
I like the 15 DL minimum for pitchers
Position players pitching doesn't bother me
I like the limited September call ups

(02-14-2020 03:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Someone doesn't like some of the new MLB rule changes...

Some of the New Roster Rules Are Garbage

Quote:Given that the proliferation of position player pitching appearances over the past few years is a reminder of the increasing instance of noncompetitive games and noncompetitive teams, you can understand why MLB would want to limit them instead of actually addressing the underlying issues that disincentivize winning. But like so much else offered up during commissioner Rob Manfred’s regime, this still feels like a solution in search of a problem. The difference between 70 position player pitching appearances and 85 is one fewer every 12 days. Unless you’re a weirdo who keeps tabs on such things for professional purposes, you’d never notice.

As for the two-way players, the rule’s requirements — again, that’s 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position (including DH) with at least three PA per game — means that only Ohtani qualifies as such a player, and that’s because of an exemption in the form of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season; recall that due to his late-2018 Tommy John surgery, he did not pitch last year. Neither Lorenzen nor Walsh would qualify as true two-way players under this rule, which means that unless their respective teams wanted to adhere to the position players pitching limits, they would count towards the 13-pitcher allowance. That’s no big deal for Lorenzen, whose primary job is on the mound, but it’s bad news for Walsh unless he starts the season rostered as a pitcher, gets his 20 mound appearances in, and then gets his 20 position player reps in; reversing the order of those two steps, given the blowout and extra-inning limitations, would take too long.

Quote:As with the new position player pitching rule, by itself the two-way player rule appears to be overly restrictive but won’t amount to much. What the two rules do in the context of the whole slate, however, is create complicated exceptions to the 26-man/13-pitcher roster rules, doing away with the cases where teams carry 14 true pitchers, which becomes less practical given the three-batter minimum anyway. With that restriction in place, I’m not sure any of these additional rules is actually necessary. They’re just one more way for the Manfred regime to drain a little bit of fun out of the game and to look busy while failing to address more pressing concerns.

The players were just as big on stemming the tide on position players pitching....

Also just as big is the uniform getting everyone 13 pitchers and the 15 day IL rules, which are going to force teams to have a long type guy on their staff- something they haven't needed with the ability to shuttle relievers in and out every 10 days.

Maybe, but does it really matter? No team was putting an outfielder on the mound in the 8th inning of a 2-run game. As the fangraphs article says, more non-pitchers pitched in 2019 because there were more blowouts. Why were there more blowouts? More teams not trying to win.

I don't have a problem with the 15 day injured list.

The 13 pitcher limit also seems unnecessary, especially when paired with the 3 batter minimum. No team is going to want more rarely-used pitchers taking up roster spots that could be better used on platoon players and a pinch hitter or two. Has any team ever had 15 pitchers on a pre-September roster for any significant period of time? I doubt it.

(02-14-2020 03:32 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I like the 3-batter minimum.
I like the 15 DL minimum for pitchers
Position players pitching doesn't bother me
I like the limited September call ups

I like the limited max number of pitchers as well. 13/14....

(02-14-2020 03:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Someone doesn't like some of the new MLB rule changes...

Some of the New Roster Rules Are Garbage

Quote:Given that the proliferation of position player pitching appearances over the past few years is a reminder of the increasing instance of noncompetitive games and noncompetitive teams, you can understand why MLB would want to limit them instead of actually addressing the underlying issues that disincentivize winning. But like so much else offered up during commissioner Rob Manfred’s regime, this still feels like a solution in search of a problem. The difference between 70 position player pitching appearances and 85 is one fewer every 12 days. Unless you’re a weirdo who keeps tabs on such things for professional purposes, you’d never notice.

As for the two-way players, the rule’s requirements — again, that’s 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position (including DH) with at least three PA per game — means that only Ohtani qualifies as such a player, and that’s because of an exemption in the form of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season; recall that due to his late-2018 Tommy John surgery, he did not pitch last year. Neither Lorenzen nor Walsh would qualify as true two-way players under this rule, which means that unless their respective teams wanted to adhere to the position players pitching limits, they would count towards the 13-pitcher allowance. That’s no big deal for Lorenzen, whose primary job is on the mound, but it’s bad news for Walsh unless he starts the season rostered as a pitcher, gets his 20 mound appearances in, and then gets his 20 position player reps in; reversing the order of those two steps, given the blowout and extra-inning limitations, would take too long.

Quote:As with the new position player pitching rule, by itself the two-way player rule appears to be overly restrictive but won’t amount to much. What the two rules do in the context of the whole slate, however, is create complicated exceptions to the 26-man/13-pitcher roster rules, doing away with the cases where teams carry 14 true pitchers, which becomes less practical given the three-batter minimum anyway. With that restriction in place, I’m not sure any of these additional rules is actually necessary. They’re just one more way for the Manfred regime to drain a little bit of fun out of the game and to look busy while failing to address more pressing concerns.

The players were just as big on stemming the tide on position players pitching....

Also just as big is the uniform getting everyone 13 pitchers and the 15 day IL rules, which are going to force teams to have a long type guy on their staff- something they haven't needed with the ability to shuttle relievers in and out every 10 days.

Maybe, but does it really matter? No team was putting an outfielder on the mound in the 8th inning of a 2-run game. As the fangraphs article says, more non-pitchers pitched in 2019 because there were more blowouts. Why were there more blowouts? More teams not trying to win.

I don't have a problem with the 15 day injured list.

The 13 pitcher limit also seems unnecessary, especially when paired with the 3 batter minimum. No team is going to want more rarely-used pitchers taking up roster spots that could be better used on platoon players and a pinch hitter or two. Has any team ever had 15 pitchers on a pre-September roster for any significant period of time? I doubt it.

I think baseball wants to keep things at worst where they are right now. They were absolutely afraid that teams would use the spot on the extra pitcher...

(02-14-2020 03:38 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 03:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Someone doesn't like some of the new MLB rule changes...

Some of the New Roster Rules Are Garbage

Quote:Given that the proliferation of position player pitching appearances over the past few years is a reminder of the increasing instance of noncompetitive games and noncompetitive teams, you can understand why MLB would want to limit them instead of actually addressing the underlying issues that disincentivize winning. But like so much else offered up during commissioner Rob Manfred’s regime, this still feels like a solution in search of a problem. The difference between 70 position player pitching appearances and 85 is one fewer every 12 days. Unless you’re a weirdo who keeps tabs on such things for professional purposes, you’d never notice.

As for the two-way players, the rule’s requirements — again, that’s 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position (including DH) with at least three PA per game — means that only Ohtani qualifies as such a player, and that’s because of an exemption in the form of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season; recall that due to his late-2018 Tommy John surgery, he did not pitch last year. Neither Lorenzen nor Walsh would qualify as true two-way players under this rule, which means that unless their respective teams wanted to adhere to the position players pitching limits, they would count towards the 13-pitcher allowance. That’s no big deal for Lorenzen, whose primary job is on the mound, but it’s bad news for Walsh unless he starts the season rostered as a pitcher, gets his 20 mound appearances in, and then gets his 20 position player reps in; reversing the order of those two steps, given the blowout and extra-inning limitations, would take too long.

Quote:As with the new position player pitching rule, by itself the two-way player rule appears to be overly restrictive but won’t amount to much. What the two rules do in the context of the whole slate, however, is create complicated exceptions to the 26-man/13-pitcher roster rules, doing away with the cases where teams carry 14 true pitchers, which becomes less practical given the three-batter minimum anyway. With that restriction in place, I’m not sure any of these additional rules is actually necessary. They’re just one more way for the Manfred regime to drain a little bit of fun out of the game and to look busy while failing to address more pressing concerns.

The players were just as big on stemming the tide on position players pitching....

Also just as big is the uniform getting everyone 13 pitchers and the 15 day IL rules, which are going to force teams to have a long type guy on their staff- something they haven't needed with the ability to shuttle relievers in and out every 10 days.

Maybe, but does it really matter? No team was putting an outfielder on the mound in the 8th inning of a 2-run game. As the fangraphs article says, more non-pitchers pitched in 2019 because there were more blowouts. Why were there more blowouts? More teams not trying to win.

I don't have a problem with the 15 day injured list.

The 13 pitcher limit also seems unnecessary, especially when paired with the 3 batter minimum. No team is going to want more rarely-used pitchers taking up roster spots that could be better used on platoon players and a pinch hitter or two. Has any team ever had 15 pitchers on a pre-September roster for any significant period of time? I doubt it.

I think baseball wants to keep things at worst where they are right now. They were absolutely afraid that teams would use the spot on the extra pitcher...

Why be afraid of that? There are still less than 4.3 plate appearances per half inning on average, there is now a 3 batter minimum per pitcher, and relievers are predominantly used in the last 3-4 innings, so you can only use so many pitchers in a game.

Only reason I can think of for carrying, say, 15 pitchers for a few weeks is if you have one or two with minor injuries and you don't want to put them on the 15 day IL.

Adding rules to solve problems that don’t exist.

(02-14-2020 05:09 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Adding rules to solve problems that don’t exist.

The problem is speed of the game, but forcing relievers to see 3 batters doesn’t seem like the solution. How about no warm up pitches instead?

(02-15-2020 04:47 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 05:09 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Adding rules to solve problems that don’t exist.

The problem is speed of the game, but forcing relievers to see 3 batters doesn’t seem like the solution. How about no warm up pitches instead?

Yes. No warmup pitches on the field, except when the previous pitcher left because of injury and is replaced by a pitcher who had no warmup in the bullpen. Also, maximum of 2 minutes between the end of one half inning and the start of the next. I'd make it a minute and a half if it was feasible.

If we want to speed up the game then let the batters foul out with 2 strikes. I'm not serious, but it would work.

On a more serious note, I think 2 minutes between innings is workable. With the slower nature of baseball, there's no reason to take long commercial breaks. Just incorporate ads into the broadcast.

(02-15-2020 04:53 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 04:47 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 05:09 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Adding rules to solve problems that don’t exist.

The problem is speed of the game, but forcing relievers to see 3 batters doesn’t seem like the solution. How about no warm up pitches instead?

Yes. No warmup pitches on the field, except when the previous pitcher left because of injury and is replaced by a pitcher who had no warmup in the bullpen. Also, maximum of 2 minutes between the end of one half inning and the start of the next. I'd make it a minute and a half if it was feasible.

I’d take that in a heartbeat. MLBPA would cry bloody murder of course.

(02-15-2020 07:56 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 04:53 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 04:47 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(02-14-2020 05:09 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  Adding rules to solve problems that don’t exist.

The problem is speed of the game, but forcing relievers to see 3 batters doesn’t seem like the solution. How about no warm up pitches instead?

Yes. No warmup pitches on the field, except when the previous pitcher left because of injury and is replaced by a pitcher who had no warmup in the bullpen. Also, maximum of 2 minutes between the end of one half inning and the start of the next. I'd make it a minute and a half if it was feasible.

I’d take that in a heartbeat. MLBPA would cry bloody murder of course.

With Manfred he'd likely capitulate to the PA's whining. In times like these MLB needs a Kennesaw Mountain, he'd f**k the Union with a rusty spoon.

But I do like the additional proposals posted as well. Especially striking out on foul balls.