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Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
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Banter Offline
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Post: #181
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 10:23 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  You must first master the craft of power football and controlling the game then you start to get more imaginative on O. IMO, from what I’ve seen from the great coaches.

With that said, I’d like to see us open up the playbook a bit more. I don’t think the coaches have full trust in the O.

Hard to open things up when the QB has no time to sit in the pocket. Lets face it... The weak play of the offensive line early in the season has made us have to be less creative. Receivers have still not proved that they can get separation, and Ridder is never comfortable because his line can't hold blocks.
 
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 12:01 PM)Banter Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 10:23 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  You must first master the craft of power football and controlling the game then you start to get more imaginative on O. IMO, from what I’ve seen from the great coaches.

With that said, I’d like to see us open up the playbook a bit more. I don’t think the coaches have full trust in the O.

Hard to open things up when the QB has no time to sit in the pocket. Lets face it... The weak play of the offensive line early in the season has made us have to be less creative. Receivers have still not proved that they can get separation, and Ridder is never comfortable because his line can't hold blocks.

Actually I thought the receivers and tight ends got a lot of separation against Miami. I think there were times Ridder was reluctant to attempt the throw and instead threw to someone on the side of the field. Perhaps this is due to him getting shell-shocked against OSU.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2019 12:44 PM by bearcatfan.)
09-18-2019 12:44 PM
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Post: #183
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 12:44 PM)bearcatfan Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 12:01 PM)Banter Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 10:23 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  You must first master the craft of power football and controlling the game then you start to get more imaginative on O. IMO, from what I’ve seen from the great coaches.

With that said, I’d like to see us open up the playbook a bit more. I don’t think the coaches have full trust in the O.

Hard to open things up when the QB has no time to sit in the pocket. Lets face it... The weak play of the offensive line early in the season has made us have to be less creative. Receivers have still not proved that they can get separation, and Ridder is never comfortable because his line can't hold blocks.

Actually I thought the receivers and tight ends got a lot of separation against Miami. I think there were times Ridder was reluctant to attempt the throw and instead threw to someone on the side of the field. Perhaps this is due to him getting shell-shocked against OSU.

Agreed. When it wasn't Ridder's first read getting separation he missed a lot of guys. There were receivers streaking open all game long. He did a good job hitting them on his first read, but he doesn't see the field that well when he has to go through progressions.
 
09-18-2019 12:55 PM
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 10:01 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 09:56 AM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 08:56 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  This offense is is way more Don Tredwell and Mark Dantonio than it is Jeff Quinn and Brian Kelly. It’s the sensible shoes and reliable sedan offense.

For good or bad this is starting to feel like Dantonio v2.0.

Lol! Yup.

Get a room.

Jealous? Want to hold the camera?
 
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.
 
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09-18-2019 08:22 PM
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Post: #186
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Oh come on. Cooper is a Redshirt Freshman. He has a lot to learn and has time to get better. Ferguson is what he is as a 5th year, but guys like Cooper and Metz are getting baptized by fire and show promise. In an ideal situation, these guys would not be seeing the field for another year or two.
 
09-19-2019 07:06 AM
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Post: #187
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Ferguson has looked incredible rough on the left side...though that's to be expected from a guy who has spent his entire life learning a drop or kick step with a right foot lead, now has to swap it out. Now that he is driving with his right and dropping with his left (at LT) he's a step slower because it isn't natural; that's one of the primary reasons why you see people move inside out on their own side of the line before you see them swap sides entirely.

As for the youngins...Cooper looked like he is relying on strength far more than technique, which is what has been causing the holding calls. I think that'll get ironed out, but it's a learning experience, as he probably wasn't called for many holding penalties in high school since refs tend to lean on the "he's bigger" mantra when they see two guys going to ground in HS ball. Metz on the other hand, shows genuine promise. Put on the UCLA tape to see what I'm talking about...his wingspan is going to help him be a great edge blocker in pass pro when it's all said and done. He stymied the edge rushers from UCLA all day because he was able to keep their arms out of contact in a way that they couldn't create any separation using arm moves.
The issue with him is his quick twitch ability at the moment (probably because he's still learning the position at a fundamental level and thinking too much), as he looked terrible against Chase Young because he couldn't get his hands into the frame of Young before Young was basically into his jock...losing leverage is never kind to anyone, let alone to someone who is trying to block the potential #1 pick in the NFL draft.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2019 07:32 AM by BearcatMan.)
09-19-2019 07:32 AM
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Post: #188
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-19-2019 07:32 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Ferguson has looked incredible rough on the left side...though that's to be expected from a guy who has spent his entire life learning a drop or kick step with a right foot lead, now has to swap it out. Now that he is driving with his right and dropping with his left (at LT) he's a step slower because it isn't natural; that's one of the primary reasons why you see people move inside out on their own side of the line before you see them swap sides entirely.

As for the youngins...Cooper looked like he is relying on strength far more than technique, which is what has been causing the holding calls. I think that'll get ironed out, but it's a learning experience, as he probably wasn't called for many holding penalties in high school since refs tend to lean on the "he's bigger" mantra when they see two guys going to ground in HS ball. Metz on the other hand, shows genuine promise. Put on the UCLA tape to see what I'm talking about...his wingspan is going to help him be a great edge blocker in pass pro when it's all said and done. He stymied the edge rushers from UCLA all day because he was able to keep their arms out of contact in a way that they couldn't create any separation using arm moves.
The issue with him is his quick twitch ability at the moment (probably because he's still learning the position at a fundamental level and thinking too much), as he looked terrible against Chase Young because he couldn't get his hands into the frame of Young before Young was basically into his jock...losing leverage is never kind to anyone, let alone to someone who is trying to block the potential #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Excellent, analysis. I think we're all frustrated watching what is happening right now on the O line but your comments support the narrative that youth and inexperience are more to blame than talent. As fans, many of us probably overestimated this team's ability to "plug and play" after an 11-2 season. The 'Cats are young still but did lose some big contributors on the O and D lines this year.

With that said, how much progress do you think we'll see during the season on the O line? Will the coaches just have to work around these issues all season?
 
09-19-2019 07:46 AM
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Post: #189
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-19-2019 07:46 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-19-2019 07:32 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Ferguson has looked incredible rough on the left side...though that's to be expected from a guy who has spent his entire life learning a drop or kick step with a right foot lead, now has to swap it out. Now that he is driving with his right and dropping with his left (at LT) he's a step slower because it isn't natural; that's one of the primary reasons why you see people move inside out on their own side of the line before you see them swap sides entirely.

As for the youngins...Cooper looked like he is relying on strength far more than technique, which is what has been causing the holding calls. I think that'll get ironed out, but it's a learning experience, as he probably wasn't called for many holding penalties in high school since refs tend to lean on the "he's bigger" mantra when they see two guys going to ground in HS ball. Metz on the other hand, shows genuine promise. Put on the UCLA tape to see what I'm talking about...his wingspan is going to help him be a great edge blocker in pass pro when it's all said and done. He stymied the edge rushers from UCLA all day because he was able to keep their arms out of contact in a way that they couldn't create any separation using arm moves.
The issue with him is his quick twitch ability at the moment (probably because he's still learning the position at a fundamental level and thinking too much), as he looked terrible against Chase Young because he couldn't get his hands into the frame of Young before Young was basically into his jock...losing leverage is never kind to anyone, let alone to someone who is trying to block the potential #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Excellent, analysis. I think we're all frustrated watching what is happening right now on the O line but your comments support the narrative that youth and inexperience are more to blame than talent. As fans, many of us probably overestimated this team's ability to "plug and play" after an 11-2 season. The 'Cats are young still but did lose some big contributors on the O and D lines this year.

With that said, how much progress do you think we'll see during the season on the O line? Will the coaches just have to work around these issues all season?

Ehhh...I think Cooper and Metz are both projects that need more than 10 weeks to figure everything out. McConnell looks like he's more solid on fundamentals, but he just doesn't have the physical tools yet (if ever). I think you'll see progress from this year to next year, but not a whole lot in the weeks we've got coming up. Now keep in mind, OSU will eviscerate nearly every team they'll play on pass rush, so that isn't really a measuring stick to evaluate their growth upon...Miami on the other had, was a rough one. With that being said, Crook could be a miracle worker, and we could see our line become more effective in the next months, I just don't see it being leaps and bounds.
 
09-19-2019 07:55 AM
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
Bearcatman don't ever leave this message board. Really appreciate the insight on stuff like this. Now just go fix our kickers
 
09-19-2019 08:03 AM
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-19-2019 07:32 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Ferguson has looked incredible rough on the left side...though that's to be expected from a guy who has spent his entire life learning a drop or kick step with a right foot lead, now has to swap it out. Now that he is driving with his right and dropping with his left (at LT) he's a step slower because it isn't natural; that's one of the primary reasons why you see people move inside out on their own side of the line before you see them swap sides entirely.

As for the youngins...Cooper looked like he is relying on strength far more than technique, which is what has been causing the holding calls. I think that'll get ironed out, but it's a learning experience, as he probably wasn't called for many holding penalties in high school since refs tend to lean on the "he's bigger" mantra when they see two guys going to ground in HS ball. Metz on the other hand, shows genuine promise. Put on the UCLA tape to see what I'm talking about...his wingspan is going to help him be a great edge blocker in pass pro when it's all said and done. He stymied the edge rushers from UCLA all day because he was able to keep their arms out of contact in a way that they couldn't create any separation using arm moves.
The issue with him is his quick twitch ability at the moment (probably because he's still learning the position at a fundamental level and thinking too much), as he looked terrible against Chase Young because he couldn't get his hands into the frame of Young before Young was basically into his jock...losing leverage is never kind to anyone, let alone to someone who is trying to block the potential #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Watching a replay when you focus on a position group is an eye opener. That could have been the worst left side line play in a game I have seen. Was terrible for football at this level.

Ferguson looks so incredibly unathletic and technically unsound. I can’t believe he’s the best option at LT 3 weeks in. He leaves his feet and just flops at the defenders ankles to cut block and whiffs. That is the kind of thing middle school kids learn not to do. When he doesn’t leave his feet and lunge he gets overpowered way too often by smaller guys. I get that he is experienced and is huge but there has to be someone who is technically better who can get in the way better than this.

Metz is great if they square up on him. He gets his hands on their chest and it’s over. However, he’s lost if they spin or stunt and the film is out there now. He’s going to get Ridder killed on one of those whiffs to the inside this year if they don’t iron that out.

Cooper could be a great find but it’s just way too early for him. It’s clear that his head is spinning. The Miami line flummoxed him most of the day.

McConnel did not look terrible when he was in here. Robinson seemed to have a decent game.
 
09-19-2019 09:02 AM
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Post: #192
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-19-2019 09:02 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(09-19-2019 07:32 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-18-2019 08:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Rewatching the game tonight...oh man, Ferguson just plain whiffs and blocks nothing but air about 6 times so far in the first 3 drives alone. It’s uncanny how often he ends up on the ground after diving without touching anyone. There has got to be somebody who can play LT at even a serviceable G5 level on this roster.

Cooper is making my eyes bleed, too..

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

Ferguson has looked incredible rough on the left side...though that's to be expected from a guy who has spent his entire life learning a drop or kick step with a right foot lead, now has to swap it out. Now that he is driving with his right and dropping with his left (at LT) he's a step slower because it isn't natural; that's one of the primary reasons why you see people move inside out on their own side of the line before you see them swap sides entirely.

As for the youngins...Cooper looked like he is relying on strength far more than technique, which is what has been causing the holding calls. I think that'll get ironed out, but it's a learning experience, as he probably wasn't called for many holding penalties in high school since refs tend to lean on the "he's bigger" mantra when they see two guys going to ground in HS ball. Metz on the other hand, shows genuine promise. Put on the UCLA tape to see what I'm talking about...his wingspan is going to help him be a great edge blocker in pass pro when it's all said and done. He stymied the edge rushers from UCLA all day because he was able to keep their arms out of contact in a way that they couldn't create any separation using arm moves.
The issue with him is his quick twitch ability at the moment (probably because he's still learning the position at a fundamental level and thinking too much), as he looked terrible against Chase Young because he couldn't get his hands into the frame of Young before Young was basically into his jock...losing leverage is never kind to anyone, let alone to someone who is trying to block the potential #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Watching a replay when you focus on a position group is an eye opener. That could have been the worst left side line play in a game I have seen. Was terrible for football at this level.

Ferguson looks so incredibly unathletic and technically unsound. I can’t believe he’s the best option at LT 3 weeks in. He leaves his feet and just flops at the defenders ankles to cut block and whiffs. That is the kind of thing middle school kids learn not to do. When he doesn’t leave his feet and lunge he gets overpowered way too often by smaller guys. I get that he is experienced and is huge but there has to be someone who is technically better who can get in the way better than this.

Metz is great if they square up on him. He gets his hands on their chest and it’s over. However, he’s lost if they spin or stunt and the film is out there now. He’s going to get Ridder killed on one of those whiffs to the inside this year if they don’t iron that out.

Cooper could be a great find but it’s just way too early for him. It’s clear that his head is spinning. The Miami line flummoxed him most of the day.

McConnel did not look terrible when he was in here. Robinson seemed to have a decent game.

Tell me about it...watching my DBs this past weekend on film day was borderline aneurysm inducing.
 
09-19-2019 11:40 AM
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RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-19-2019 07:55 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-19-2019 07:46 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  [quote='BearcatMan' pid='16309316' dateline='1568896322']
[quote='rath v2.0' pid='16308923' dateline='1568856145']

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

With that said, how much progress do you think we'll see during the season on the O line? Will the coaches just have to work around these issues all season?

Ehhh...I think Cooper and Metz are both projects that need more than 10 weeks to figure everything out. McConnell looks like he's more solid on fundamentals, but he just doesn't have the physical tools yet (if ever). I think you'll see progress from this year to next year, but not a whole lot in the weeks we've got coming up.
I edited the quotes above, shortening for readability.

I am going to be optimistic and disagree a little bit with the pessimism for this season. Young, inexperienced players are likely to improve more during a season than experienced veterans.

The 2 "senior/grad veteran" starters are just in their second year starting.
Robinson, (soph) started several games last year.
Metz, Cooper, and McConnell are redshirt freshmen with no previous starts.
Harper, while a junior, has essential no collegiate experience.

So, I am projecting some real improvement in the coming weeks. In part, because their base performance to date has been poor/mediocre. If nothing else, the false starts should decrease a little.

Will they become polished veterans in the next 2 months? NO.

I have been a skeptic about the O line since spring practice. None of us have been happy with what we have seen thus far. And I am surely hoping that we can avoid injuries which push us further into our 2 deep.

The glass is not yet half full, but I think it might fill up a little.
 
09-20-2019 09:03 AM
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Post: #194
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
(09-20-2019 09:03 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  
(09-19-2019 07:55 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-19-2019 07:46 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  [quote='BearcatMan' pid='16309316' dateline='1568896322']
[quote='rath v2.0' pid='16308923' dateline='1568856145']

All the talk about how great it is that we have all these OL starters together for years to come...yeesh.

With that said, how much progress do you think we'll see during the season on the O line? Will the coaches just have to work around these issues all season?

Ehhh...I think Cooper and Metz are both projects that need more than 10 weeks to figure everything out. McConnell looks like he's more solid on fundamentals, but he just doesn't have the physical tools yet (if ever). I think you'll see progress from this year to next year, but not a whole lot in the weeks we've got coming up.
I edited the quotes above, shortening for readability.

I am going to be optimistic and disagree a little bit with the pessimism for this season. Young, inexperienced players are likely to improve more during a season than experienced veterans.

The 2 "senior/grad veteran" starters are just in their second year starting.
Robinson, (soph) started several games last year.
Metz, Cooper, and McConnell are redshirt freshmen with no previous starts.
Harper, while a junior, has essential no collegiate experience.

So, I am projecting some real improvement in the coming weeks. In part, because their base performance to date has been poor/mediocre. If nothing else, the false starts should decrease a little.

Will they become polished veterans in the next 2 months? NO.

I have been a skeptic about the O line since spring practice. None of us have been happy with what we have seen thus far. And I am surely hoping that we can avoid injuries which push us further into our 2 deep.

The glass is not yet half full, but I think it might fill up a little.

I'm not really pessimistic, I'm just realistic about how much intensive coaching and muscle memory goes into being an effective offensive lineman, and it's not something that can be done in a matter of weeks. Most of these individuals used raw strength instead of a technique to simply overpower the players lined up across the LOS from them in HS...learning and being able to implement specific techniques in both run and passing blocking, especially the zone concepts that we use on our backfield mesh plays, as well as becoming comfortable with transitional assignments (dealing with twists and line games) and general communication will take significant time for guys who have never been exposed to them previously.
 
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Post: #195
RE: Gameday Thread: Miami vs. Cincy
More OL thoughts - we are missing experience at least as much as talent.

16 listed on the roster:
3 Grad/Sr: Heil (transfer) Ferguson, James
2 Jr: Bryzinski, Harper (transfer)
4 Soph: Hudson (transfer), Robinson, Lamb, McConnell
5 Redshirt Freshmen: O'Quinn, Metz, Voelker (wo), Woodside, Cooper
2 Freshmen: Allen, Mendiola

So, we will "only" lose 2 linemen getting any playing time to graduation.
Stringing the ifs together. If we can avoid serious injuries, then its a couple of years from now are our line should have wonderful experience. If these young guys prove any good, Fick's "line oriented" program should arrive.

Plus a big OL recruiting class this year.
 
09-21-2019 08:36 PM
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