Probably digging up an old idea here but it really seems like both conferences have some dead weight laying around that they could pass off on the WAC:

WAC East:
UNO
UALR
UTA
A&M CC
UTRGV

WAC West:
NMSU
GCU
Dixie St
UVU
Cal Bapt
Seattle

Seems like a merciful way for both the Sunbelt and Southland to reduce the number of mouths to feed. Those leagues are committed to FBS and FCS football—the other schools don’t fit the model and are NEVER going to add it.

The WAC gets stability and some basketball programs that aren’t terrible—or at least better than DII upgrades. Division play keeps travel costs reasonable.

New Orleans was supposed to play football starting in 2015, but had problems to a point in delaying.

Seems like UTA and UALR fill in some geography nicely on the Olympic side and give an in-state opponent to two schools that would otherwise be on something of an island.

can you post this thread to the wac bbs too???

(09-13-2019 03:47 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Seems like UTA and UALR fill in some geography nicely on the Olympic side and give an in-state opponent to two schools that would otherwise be on something of an island.

This is correct.

AState is 300 miles from the nearest football playing member (ULM) but only 120 from UALR. So if you are Georgia State coming in for volleyball or hoops you can fly to Memphis, van to Jonesboro, van to LR, fly out of LR or drive 130 miles to Memphis and fly back out of there. Or fly in to LR, van to Jonesboro, van back to LR and fly out of LR.

TXST is 380 miles from the nearest football playing member (UL) but only 230 from UTA. You get four airports to deal with commercial (DFW, DAL [Love], AUS, and SAT) but not as easy of a drive between schools as in Arkansas.

Western Sun Belt would be rather messy without UALR and UTA.
Your choices would be pair AState-ULM (300 miles) and UL-TXST (380 miles) or pair ULM-UL (185 miles) and AState and TXST (680 miles, you can shave 30 off that but it's a slower route).
It makes life easier for the two conference meetings in a week sports and gives them flexibility of two different airports.

UALR was actually invited to the Belt prior to the Sun Belt - American South merger though the merger took place the day prior to UALR's actual entry.

So in the entire conference you have South Alabama who pre-dates them and then you have AState and Louisiana who were in the Sun Belt one whole day prior to UALR but weren't on path to "join" until after UALR. For ASC member Lamar (then coached by a former UALR coach) actually tried to rally the troops to revoke UALR's invitation but that went nowhere.

The remaining eight members all joined understanding UALR was a member.

(09-13-2019 04:15 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(09-13-2019 03:47 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Seems like UTA and UALR fill in some geography nicely on the Olympic side and give an in-state opponent to two schools that would otherwise be on something of an island.

This is correct.

AState is 300 miles from the nearest football playing member (ULM) but only 120 from UALR. So if you are Georgia State coming in for volleyball or hoops you can fly to Memphis, van to Jonesboro, van to LR, fly out of LR or drive 130 miles to Memphis and fly back out of there. Or fly in to LR, van to Jonesboro, van back to LR and fly out of LR.

TXST is 380 miles from the nearest football playing member (UL) but only 230 from UTA. You get four airports to deal with commercial (DFW, DAL [Love], AUS, and SAT) but not as easy of a drive between schools as in Arkansas.

Western Sun Belt would be rather messy without UALR and UTA.
Your choices would be pair AState-ULM (300 miles) and UL-TXST (380 miles) or pair ULM-UL (185 miles) and AState and TXST (680 miles, you can shave 30 off that but it's a slower route).
It makes life easier for the two conference meetings in a week sports and gives them flexibility of two different airports.

UALR was actually invited to the Belt prior to the Sun Belt - American South merger though the merger took place the day prior to UALR's actual entry.

So in the entire conference you have South Alabama who pre-dates them and then you have AState and Louisiana who were in the Sun Belt one whole day prior to UALR but weren't on path to "join" until after UALR. For ASC member Lamar (then coached by a former UALR coach) actually tried to rally the troops to revoke UALR's invitation but that went nowhere.

The remaining eight members all joined understanding UALR was a member.

I saw the thread title and came here to type "Go ask arkstfan" but I see he beat me to it.

(09-13-2019 03:36 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Probably digging up an old idea here but it really seems like both conferences have some dead weight laying around that they could pass off on the WAC:

WAC East:
UNO
UALR
UTA
A&M CC
UTRGV

WAC West:
NMSU
GCU
Dixie St
UVU
Cal Bapt
Seattle

Seems like a merciful way for both the Sunbelt and Southland to reduce the number of mouths to feed. Those leagues are committed to FBS and FCS football—the other schools don’t fit the model and are NEVER going to add it.

The WAC gets stability and some basketball programs that aren’t terrible—or at least better than DII upgrades. Division play keeps travel costs reasonable.

Looking from the Southland Conference perspective, I don't think the conference has ever had a firm requirement of members sponsoring football.

Even with the addition of UNO in 2013, the Southland has two less non-football members than it did in 2011-12. Lamar restarted football after 20 years while UTA and UTSA departed the conference. UTA was a non-football member from 1986-2012. UTSA joined the conference as a non-football member in 1991 leaving in 2012. Lamar was reinvited back to the conference in 1996 as a non-football member returning in 1998. Lamar's return to conference football participation began in 2011.

Neither UNO nor TAMU-CC are geographical outliers in the SLC so no incentive there. The conference already has 11 football members so no real need there.

Regarding the Sunbelt, I get that some of the west schools like having some drivable games. You could always cut loose the non-football schools and replace them with Southland call ups like Central Arkansas and Lamar.

Regarding UNO and A&M CC, both came in under the premise that football would be added soon but those programs have never materialized. C-USA once decided that football was the future and they changed their membership rules to require it, forcing members out. Even the SNC rewrote their rules requiring sports sponsorship to drive out Denver. There’s definitely a precedence for telling a school that the hybrid model isn’t working any more and they need to move to a conference that has similar athletic programs.

There’s no good reason for a D1 1-bid league to have 13 members. The football issue just becomes an easy way to justify improving the revenue payouts for those who remain.

I never thought about this, makes some sense. UTA was in the WAC briefly, before most of the current core arrived. I don’t know if they were just transitioning between the Southland and Sun Belt.

10-12 basketball schools seem to ideal numbers. 13 really is odd.

I haven’t kept up with RPI or other conference rankings so I’m not sure how each conference stacks up vs the WAC. I just think there is still a stigma attached to most of the WAC members, for various reasons. D2 call ups, former for-profit, outcasts and leftovers. I assume many schools in the Southland and Sun Belt would rather associate with their current peers. Isn’t that why Denver left?

UTA gave both the WAC and SBC the impression that they were seriously interested in bringing back FBS football and they still have a suitable OCS. Now, almost 10 years later, there is still no UTA football.

For a 1 bid league 10 is really optimal for all sports. 11 is doable. Once you get to 12 and 13 you are splitting a small pie into a lot of really small pieces when it comes to revenue. Conferences like the MAC make 12 work because they went to that model for an FBS Fb CCG. At the FCS and non-football levels the dollars just don’t make sense to be that big.

(09-13-2019 10:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UTA gave both the WAC and SBC the impression that they were seriously interested in bringing back FBS football and they still have a suitable OCS. Now, almost 10 years later, there is still no UTA football.

For a 1 bid league 10 is really optimal for all sports. 11 is doable. Once you get to 12 and 13 you are splitting a small pie into a lot of really small pieces when it comes to revenue. Conferences like the MAC make 12 work because they went to that model for an FBS Fb CCG. At the FCS and non-football levels the dollars just don’t make sense to be that big.

I think SLC membership is where it is because it had lost three members (UTA, UTSA, and Texas State) to FBS conferences and had at least two more members (Sam Houston State and Lamar) seriously exploring moving up. Lamar had a five year plan to move to FBS. https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/sport...732743.php

Quote:"Yes, we plan to do that, in a five-year program we would like be in the FBS, which is the Bowl Subdivision," Tubbs said. "That's where we aspire to be. As things are moving around, we want to position ourselves to have the possibility of upgrading our football program."

Details of a move have not been ironed out. Tubbs said no deal is in place with a particular conference, but "we've been looking at this for quite some time," Tubbs said.

Sam Houston State was studying a move to FBS around the same time. https://www.itemonline.com/sports/shsu-e...b54e9.html

Quote:About a month ago, before all the crazy expansion stuff went down, Sam Houston State came up with a survey for alumni, students, fans and facility and staff to serve as a tool to help determine the feasibility of strengthening the entire athletic department and the possibility of moving up to the Football Bowl Subdivision.

This doesn’t mean that the Bearkats are planning on making the move anytime soon, but the athletic department would like to get a feel of what it might need to do to position Sam Houston State for the jump if indeed it comes to that down the road.

From the same article, there was concern about the stability of some of the conference membership in Louisiana.

Quote:With the big boys stealing the spotlight, it has kind of flown under the radar outside of Louisiana that the state’s public universities are in trouble and eight of the 14 institutions might get shut down to reduce state funding. Three of those eight universities — Nicholls, McNeese State and Northwestern State — are currently members of the Southland Conference.

In retrospect, the crystal ball wasn't very clear; however, I understand and appreciate the proactive moves the conference made to insure conference stability.

(09-14-2019 11:29 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  

(09-13-2019 10:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UTA gave both the WAC and SBC the impression that they were seriously interested in bringing back FBS football and they still have a suitable OCS. Now, almost 10 years later, there is still no UTA football.

For a 1 bid league 10 is really optimal for all sports. 11 is doable. Once you get to 12 and 13 you are splitting a small pie into a lot of really small pieces when it comes to revenue. Conferences like the MAC make 12 work because they went to that model for an FBS Fb CCG. At the FCS and non-football levels the dollars just don’t make sense to be that big.

I think SLC membership is where it is because it had lost three members (UTA, UTSA, and Texas State) to FBS conferences and had at least two more members (Sam Houston State and Lamar) seriously exploring moving up. Lamar had a five year plan to move to FBS. https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/sport...732743.php

Quote:"Yes, we plan to do that, in a five-year program we would like be in the FBS, which is the Bowl Subdivision," Tubbs said. "That's where we aspire to be. As things are moving around, we want to position ourselves to have the possibility of upgrading our football program."

Details of a move have not been ironed out. Tubbs said no deal is in place with a particular conference, but "we've been looking at this for quite some time," Tubbs said.

Sam Houston State was studying a move to FBS around the same time. https://www.itemonline.com/sports/shsu-e...b54e9.html

Quote:About a month ago, before all the crazy expansion stuff went down, Sam Houston State came up with a survey for alumni, students, fans and facility and staff to serve as a tool to help determine the feasibility of strengthening the entire athletic department and the possibility of moving up to the Football Bowl Subdivision.

This doesn’t mean that the Bearkats are planning on making the move anytime soon, but the athletic department would like to get a feel of what it might need to do to position Sam Houston State for the jump if indeed it comes to that down the road.

From the same article, there was concern about the stability of some of the conference membership in Louisiana.

Quote:With the big boys stealing the spotlight, it has kind of flown under the radar outside of Louisiana that the state’s public universities are in trouble and eight of the 14 institutions might get shut down to reduce state funding. Three of those eight universities — Nicholls, McNeese State and Northwestern State — are currently members of the Southland Conference.

In retrospect, the crystal ball wasn't very clear; however, I understand and appreciate the proactive moves the conference made to insure conference stability.

SFAU also started a study to move to FBS right after Sam Houston State did. They were not happy with Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist and New Orleans getting invites.

The Sun Belt has a great travel partner arrangements as it stands right now for Oly sports. There is no "island." The 10/12 membership has worked out pretty fun well so far.

(09-13-2019 10:46 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  Isn’t that why Denver left?

At the time DU rejoined full D-I membership (Hockey and Gymnastics were already D-I) in 1998, the Sun Belt was the only conference offering Denver a home. Denver was in the Sun Belt for 15 years, way longer than anyone expected, and while Denver was a strong SBC competitor with excellent budgets, top academics and facilities, the distance factor from the SBC footprint and DU's unusual sports mix across five other conferences surely grated at most of the league's coaches. Additionally, DU was never going to add additional SBC sports like football, baseball, softball or track, either, so it was best for everyone when DU left the SBC.

The Pioneers left for the WAC in 2012, as a more appropriate regional conference for a school in Rocky Mountains, and the WAC basically imploded the next year and left the Pioneers holding the proverbial bag. Rather than staying and trying to rebuild the WAC as a conference of misfits and startups, DU decamped for the Summit in 2013. While it's not exactly a regional conference for conference Denver (the closest Summit Schools in Omaha or KC are about a 8-9 hour drive away), its the best DU can do for now.

I think there was a point where the Sunbelt thought that Denver and Utah St could be western travel partners. Utah St wasn’t keen on being anything more than an affiliate and then the WAC taking Idaho, Utah St, and NMSU in 2005 pretty much put an end to the western experiment. New southeastern members like Troy, FAU, and FIU made a western wing unnecessary and Denver was put on notice to start looking for a western home.