JRsec
Super Moderator
Posts: 37,884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 7737
I Root For: SEC
Location:
|
RE: I'm a conservative Republican. Climate change is real.
(09-12-2019 07:34 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: (09-12-2019 01:11 PM)JRsec Wrote: (09-12-2019 05:31 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: JR, if anything knowing we live in the last times greatly increases our faith, our obedience to God and makes us use the time remaining to the fullest.
One of the greatest sources of Joy a Christian can have is knowing the return of Christ is near, if its in our lives or just shortly after. That is not something that takes away from our daily lives, its something that enriches it and all we do in our lives for God or the brethren in Christ.
Nothing will purify your heart, faith and life like knowing Christ could return at any moment. Thats why its called our blessed hope.
It a source of strength for us daily, and not something that we should be ignoring, downplaying or setting aside.
Eric nobody can downplay reality. And focusing on the positive aspects of faith (courage, hope, love, compassion, and service, which is to focus on Christ) is the best approach to faith that my long life has taught me.
The lost who see the positive differences that they may find in their daily lives by watching Christianity in practice is the best witness for them. We all know we are going to die. Most know that they are sinners. What most people need is a reason to live, the courage they need to change the destructive aspects of their own natures, and a focus on something other than themselves.
Many people can't see God until they first see God in the characteristics of those who believe. Doctrine, scripture citing, and the proclamation of excitement over thee return of our Lord are not things that appeal to the lost. The hear impersonal control in doctrine, they lack the base of study to understand scripture, and they don't trust people who are excited about the end of the world.
What reaches the lost is when they are drawn to faith in action. When someone shows them compassion they want to know why. When someone returns kindness for rudeness it makes them look at themselves. When people are happy in the midst of crises in life they want that for themselves. It is faith in practice that changes hearts and it is then changed hearts that want to study scripture, begin to understand doctrine, and then gets excited at the thought of Christ's return.
Where most Christians fail is when they start with doctrine and scripture before they address the physical needs before them, or ignore the spiritual confusion of those for which they are doing something. As with medicine we must address the issues of mind, body, and spirit. They will never want to believe what you have to say until they believe what they see you do, hear you say, and sense that there is no manipulation, and realize there is no quid pro quo, which is how the rest of the world operates.
The greatest obstacle to ministry is in forgetting how you lived, what you thought, and how you treated others before Christ changed you. Yes, Christians love the hope in which they live, but that is wholly alien to the lost. You have to show them that you understand what they facing and experiencing and that there is a better way before they'll ever choose that path, and even then they may not. The dog eat dog and the tough only survive philosophy that teaches self interest before all else is a strong message from a fallen world. But being a friend, making a friend, and showing a friend a different way is the oldest and most patient and proven way to carry out our commission.
The problem with discussing faith on this board (which I'm all for) is that Christianity is a lifelong journey and the perspective from each poster will be personally tailored to where in life they are. I read these discussions and by people's responses can discern what it is most are facing, and why it is they approach it the way they do. I'm just happy they are on the journey. But when they argue that perspective which is only unique to them it leads to confusion.
The old religious joke is about the man who fell into a deep well and caught a root protruding from the side of the shaft before he hit bottom. He prayed to God aloud to rescue him. Finally somebody heard his praying in the well and tossed him a rope. The man rejoiced. And after the experience everyone he met who didn't believe in God he threw into the well. We get so wound around the cord that others must meet God the way that we did that we ignore their unique circumstances and forget that how God reaches them will be just as unique as their circumstances. So to reach them you must get to know and understand them, rather than tossing them into a well.
So all I'm saying here is that when you don't know the other people personally, haven't learned what life has dealt them to get them to the place where you find them, then you don't know what ministry they need that they will relate to. Once they relate then you can teach them the Bible and show them by example a better way. Until then the lessons of the world, which are harsh, will be the only thing they understand because it is the only thing they have ever experienced.
My views about scripture are no different than yours. My vantage point in life however is very different. Yes the faithful will rejoice and find hope in Christ's return. But that isn't helping to win the lost who hear that and without the context of Biblical literacy and witnessing faith in action simply see it as insane because nobody they know would ever see the end of the only world they know and the certain death they will experience as something to rejoice over. Therefore remember that we once felt the same way, and demonstrating how crises in life will not get us down, is essential in reaching them. They want a friend, they want courage, they want hope, and before they love God they must see that God loves them and you, or other Christians, are the most likely means by which that may be experienced. Faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love. Paul did not say that the greatest of these was fear of damnation and the desire for the end of the world. Remember Christ also said that the Kingdom of God was within you. That part of the Kingdom is here and now, and all we need until the Kingdom comes in full. The lost already know suffering and death. What they need is to learn to trust the love enough to develop hope. Then they can relate to the teaching and believe in a loving God.
I see this a lot in some Christians where they have a very hostile and negative reaction to something as simple as understanding the times and seasons in which we live. They always present the false choice that doing do somehow takes ways from our daily lives and witness to others as Christians, when the reality it does the complete opposite of that.
Its not a choice of extremes as you suggest. Its just something we include in our understating of scripture and the world. Christians who are uncomfortable with these things just have a tendency to get very hostile or defense over them. There is nothing you said that is remotely in conflict with understanding the times and seasons we are in, you are creating a conflict between the two that does not exist. There is nothing you said that is devalued by understanding that or knowing in our hearts Christ could possibly return in our lives or in our grandchildren lives.
I would also strongly disagree with saying that speaking of these things or the last days drives the lost away, I have seen with my own eyes that it can draw people to Christ who are lost. People seeking answers and understanding bout this crazy world we live in. Peter Himself said that we have a more sure word of prophecy, of things already fulfilled and things yet to come, and this is a very strong witness to the lost and can bring Christ into their hearts.
We have to be careful not to box the lost all into one path to Christ, they come to him for many different reasons. Different people are different. Some come to him by seeing how we live by faith, some come to him at crucial points of their lives or places of great pain, some come to him from reading the bible and seeing the evidence that the bibel is true.
I find that if you ever even mention these thing or have a conversation about end times things, then those Christian who have a hostile reaction try to criticize you for doing that and nothing else. Even when that is so clearly not the case. Occasionally you will see me mention something about end times events, by more typically I am arguing for Christ through apologetics or evidence, speaking on faith, salvation or doctrinal issues, or offering advice on how Christians should approach different issues.
But something comes up about understanding the times and season and suddenly certain Christians are criticizing me for "wasting time with that stuff" and taking away form other aspects of Christian life, whcih is totally absurd imo.
People have a tendency to attack or get defense over things they are uncomfortable with or don't think they understand well, and I see that a lot when something like this comes up in any context.
The only one defensive here is you. And what I was saying was in no way an attack upon you. I don't disagree with your theology, and I only stated that the actual practice of ministering to those who Christ commanded us to minister to produces the best results when you spend enough time with those to whom you are reaching out to know how best to teach them. Make a friend, be a friend, win a friend to Christ is one the oldest methods for evangelism in the world, and was modeled by the earthly ministry of Christ. He spoke the truth but did so within the context of a relationship or at least a conversation. When he taught the record indicates it was to gatherings and much less personal. When he sent his disciples out he did so to homes and sent them in twos where the intention was personal instruction more than preaching in the sense we know it, although both occurred.
I'm not uncomfortable with death or dying, or judgment. I'm merely pointing out from decades of experience that you reach more people by getting to know them first. When they see consistency in what you do with what you say their receptivity goes up.
What you were describing was from the perspective of the believer. What I was describing was from the perspective of mission. The approach to reaching the lost is not a one size fits all strategy. It's a personal approach geared to what you know the individual will be able to receive and build upon. You think that because I don't use your proscribed method that I've missed the point. I'm saying the method is particular to the person since we are unique creations of God. And that forming a basis of trust is efficacious to reaching people.
The world is impersonal, God is not. The world tells you what to think. God wants a relationship which implies getting to know one another and listening. The world expects you to fit its mold. God has no mold since all of God's creations are unique.
This is the second time I've described alternative means to accomplish what you lay out as objectives and it is the second time you have reacted defensively.
I wish you well with your ministry. All I've been saying is that you win people by caring about them, understanding them, listening to them, and modeling for them Christ. Then with prayer and talking to them directly about their concerns introducing them to appropriate scripture and through it to God.
Most folks understand they will die. They experience the growing turmoil in society. And they know that the Earth will end. What they want is to know God now. Receive some of His blessings now. And learn how to work for him now. Most really aren't in denial about death, nor are they mature enough to welcome the end times.
Christ said that he came that we might have life and have it abundantly. Abundant life is the reward of Christian living. It's not an abundance in possessions or a life free of crisis. But it is a life that is not moved by any of it because it lives with its own purpose, its own sense of being blessed different from the blessing of things which isn't really a blessing at all, and confident in their destiny.
When you encounter Christians that focus on ministry now but who are disparaging of dwelling on the end times, it is because for 2000 years people have been using the end times to try to scare people into a relationship with God and since none of us know when the end times will actually occur it has lost its impact.
Eric the seasons have been observable in all eras of history. It is true that the Jews have returned to Israel, but the Jews who did return are 85% secular. Does that fulfill the prophecy? Maybe, maybe not.
People want to know how to have assurance and peace in their lives now. They want a God they can have a personal relationship with. And they want to know that life can be spiritually abundant now. So ministry is bolstered by helping them to learn how to relate to God, how to read his scripture, and how to model Christ's life for others. That's why it is called shepherding. But doing that takes time. That's why a community of believers (not necessarily an organized church) helps. That way they have many different examples to draw from and many different experiences to connect with, but all of them in relationship with Christ.
I'm a believer in eschatology. But I look for ministry in the existential and believe that modeling Christ is a better (not the only) approach to helping people develop a relationship with God. As I have said before there are as many approaches and tools in Gods work chest as there are people he has created. We need to try to approximate as many approaches and familiarize ourselves with as many uses of those tools as we legitimately can, and we need to recognize when another might be better prepared to reach a particular person than we are. People listen to those who have been through what they feel they have been through. It's called a testimony.
And those are as varied as the people who have them, but similar enough to be heard and believed by many, though not all. It's a matter of knowing them well enough and knowing other Christians well enough to know which tools to use and when. That is why there is strength in numbers when there is a unity of purpose. Christ did say where two or more are gathered in my name there I will be also.
I don't think you are off base and you should do what you do best, but be cognizant that there are many other approaches and depending upon the person you are trying to reach other approaches might be more successful. And that is not a rebuke but only advice.
|
|