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Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
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ThunderDent Offline
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Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
https://www.marshall.edu/ucomm/2019/09/0...-students/

Good things happening academically. Marshall has really stepped up it’s game in the research department, while still being able to focus on educating and graduating residents.

Regardless of conference affiliation, I’m proud that they’ve put a focus on academics.
09-09-2019 12:58 PM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
[Image: giphy.gif]



Jk.

I've read a lot on Marshall's new programs and academic upgrades in the last 6-8 months.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2019 01:27 PM by Yosef Himself.)
09-09-2019 01:26 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
Yeah,

USNWR expanded the number of schools in their "National University" ranking from 301 to 381.

Marshall was one of 80 newcomers.

Many of the newcomers, like Marshall, find themselves ranked in the bottom bucket 293-381.

Several of the newcomers were ranked between 100 & 200, and more between 200 and 292.
09-09-2019 03:37 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
09-09-2019 04:00 PM
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ThunderDent Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
No clue on that.

Not insisting we’re Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or even Rice.

Just know it’s a big academic move for Marshall, who’s grown from a teachers college in 1837, to a regional masters university, and now to a National research university (R2). They’ve been adding lots of research positions and doctoral programs, and have maintained the top forensic science program in the country for ~ the last 10 years.

I don’t care if we’re #381. We’ve been increasing our academic profile (which has always been a big deal against us), and I’m glad to see it. Regardless of conference affiliation, it’s good for the university as a whole, and good for the state of WV. Especially since they keep class sizes smaller to have a good student/teacher ratio, and still maintain a focus on educating and graduating state residents, among others. We have a lot of international students etc, but always are trying to grow the state and region as innovators and leaders.

Hopefully they continue to grow! Just thought I’d share.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2019 04:54 PM by ThunderDent.)
09-09-2019 04:52 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data
09-10-2019 05:20 PM
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Gamecock Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Thanks for the links.

It’s not even just that, lists like these drastically favor smaller schools. If South Carolina for example decided to cut their enrollment in half by eliminating the bottom 50% of each class their average test scores and faculty/student ratio would skyrocket. But does being more exclusive somehow make the school any better? They’re still offering the same programs, the same professors, and the same research output
09-10-2019 05:49 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?

You don't need fraud to make these rankings a joke. They do not normalize per capita, which is a giant give away to factory farms with over 50,000 students. As a result, Rice will never be ahead of Texas in the rankings even though we all know Rice is the better school. They do not discriminate on degree difficulty, content, or achievement .... so a degree in nuclear engineering with a 4.0 is worth just as much as a degree in interdisciplinary studies with a 2.5 is worth just as much as a degree in being a Trotskyite failure and social burden. If you were to actually sort by types of degrees, normalize per capita, take into account ROI on salary after graduation, etc .... the list would look alien to most people. You'd find sitting right up at the top the Colorado School of Mines, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Johns Hopkins, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, and Rensselaer Polytechnic.
09-10-2019 06:02 PM
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LostInSpace Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 06:02 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?

You don't need fraud to make these rankings a joke. They do not normalize per capita, which is a giant give away to factory farms with over 50,000 students. As a result, Rice will never be ahead of Texas in the rankings even though we all know Rice is the better school. They do not discriminate on degree difficulty, content, or achievement .... so a degree in nuclear engineering with a 4.0 is worth just as much as a degree in interdisciplinary studies with a 2.5 is worth just as much as a degree in being a Trotskyite failure and social burden. If you were to actually sort by types of degrees, normalize per capita, take into account ROI on salary after graduation, etc .... the list would look alien to most people. You'd find sitting right up at the top the Colorado School of Mines, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Johns Hopkins, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, and Rensselaer Polytechnic.

Last time I checked 17 (Rice), 12, (Cal Tech), 3 (MIT), 29 (GA Tech), 25 [Carnegie Mellon) and others on your list come before 48 (Texas) in a stacked ranking. Rice and those others are ahead of Texas every year to the best of my knowledge as the rankings are quite stable from year to year with the fairly rare exception of a place like Northeastern.

For anyone wondering, Carnegie now includes First Professional degrees (MD, JD, etc.) in calculating R1 hence the 80 additional schools in that category.

I’ve got a kid attending Tech, a cousin who is a department chair, my wife used to work there and a couple relatives who are alumni. Good school but not the place for everyone. Swell STEM brag / rant though. Never heard it before. /s

Ultimately the world needs teachers, social workers and other lower paid workers too.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 07:14 PM by LostInSpace.)
09-10-2019 07:09 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Don't forget Clemson.
09-10-2019 08:34 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 06:02 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?

You don't need fraud to make these rankings a joke. They do not normalize per capita, which is a giant give away to factory farms with over 50,000 students. As a result, Rice will never be ahead of Texas in the rankings even though we all know Rice is the better school. They do not discriminate on degree difficulty, content, or achievement .... so a degree in nuclear engineering with a 4.0 is worth just as much as a degree in interdisciplinary studies with a 2.5 is worth just as much as a degree in being a Trotskyite failure and social burden. If you were to actually sort by types of degrees, normalize per capita, take into account ROI on salary after graduation, etc .... the list would look alien to most people. You'd find sitting right up at the top the Colorado School of Mines, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Johns Hopkins, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, and Rensselaer Polytechnic.

USNWR favors the small selective schools and so strongly favors private schools.

You may be thinking about other rankings.
09-10-2019 08:37 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 07:09 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Last time I checked 17 (Rice), 12, (Cal Tech), 3 (MIT), 29 (GA Tech), 25 [Carnegie Mellon) and others on your list come before 48 (Texas) in a stacked ranking. Rice and those others are ahead of Texas every year to the best of my knowledge as the rankings are quite stable from year to year with the fairly rare exception of a place like Northeastern.

For anyone wondering, Carnegie now includes First Professional degrees (MD, JD, etc.) in calculating R1 hence the 80 additional schools in that category.

I’ve got a kid attending Tech, a cousin who is a department chair, my wife used to work there and a couple relatives who are alumni. Good school but not the place for everyone. Swell STEM brag / rant though. Never heard it before. /s

Ultimately the world needs teachers, social workers and other lower paid workers too.

And that's fine. And a choice for everybody to make. But you should know the ROI on your investment when going to get sheep skin. And that's not even necessarily a knock against anti-STEM. I think quantifying by ROI you'll find the .edu space is incredibly volatile now that major name brand universities are getting serious about online offerings. I would consider a Literature degree just for ***** and giggles if it were entirely online from a reputable school with fantastic teachers and with a course work I found provocative. Georgia Tech offers online masters degrees for $5,000. As soon as you can get a teaching degree online for that cheap from the diploma farm factories then they won't look so silly on paper. While the last 20 years may have sucked to be a student financially, there's a good renaissance afoot.

Regarding Texas ... I've seen them ahead of Rice in various research metrics based solely on the amount of dollars flowing through the school without regard to the amount that is per capita. The last time I browsed the dead tree format in depth USN&WR rankings in Wally World they placed Texas ahead of Rice on some sub-rankings.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2019 10:14 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
09-10-2019 10:12 PM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 06:02 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?

You don't need fraud to make these rankings a joke. They do not normalize per capita, which is a giant give away to factory farms with over 50,000 students. As a result, Rice will never be ahead of Texas in the rankings even though we all know Rice is the better school. They do not discriminate on degree difficulty, content, or achievement .... so a degree in nuclear engineering with a 4.0 is worth just as much as a degree in interdisciplinary studies with a 2.5 is worth just as much as a degree in being a Trotskyite failure and social burden. If you were to actually sort by types of degrees, normalize per capita, take into account ROI on salary after graduation, etc .... the list would look alien to most people. You'd find sitting right up at the top the Colorado School of Mines, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Johns Hopkins, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, and Rensselaer Polytechnic.

In all fairness, your logic is weighting schools focusing on degrees in high-paying careers, which penalizes schools that focus on lower-compensated fields of study. Therefore, an engineering school of lower-quality academics would rate above an elite school that may produce more teachers and social workers. There are plenty of high-earning pharmaceutical reps and hedge fund managers out there that barely made it through the local community college.
09-11-2019 01:16 AM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 10:12 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 07:09 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Last time I checked 17 (Rice), 12, (Cal Tech), 3 (MIT), 29 (GA Tech), 25 [Carnegie Mellon) and others on your list come before 48 (Texas) in a stacked ranking. Rice and those others are ahead of Texas every year to the best of my knowledge as the rankings are quite stable from year to year with the fairly rare exception of a place like Northeastern.

For anyone wondering, Carnegie now includes First Professional degrees (MD, JD, etc.) in calculating R1 hence the 80 additional schools in that category.

I’ve got a kid attending Tech, a cousin who is a department chair, my wife used to work there and a couple relatives who are alumni. Good school but not the place for everyone. Swell STEM brag / rant though. Never heard it before. /s

Ultimately the world needs teachers, social workers and other lower paid workers too.

And that's fine. And a choice for everybody to make. But you should know the ROI on your investment when going to get sheep skin. And that's not even necessarily a knock against anti-STEM. I think quantifying by ROI you'll find the .edu space is incredibly volatile now that major name brand universities are getting serious about online offerings. I would consider a Literature degree just for ***** and giggles if it were entirely online from a reputable school with fantastic teachers and with a course work I found provocative. Georgia Tech offers online masters degrees for $5,000. As soon as you can get a teaching degree online for that cheap from the diploma farm factories then they won't look so silly on paper. While the last 20 years may have sucked to be a student financially, there's a good renaissance afoot.

Regarding Texas ... I've seen them ahead of Rice in various research metrics based solely on the amount of dollars flowing through the school without regard to the amount that is per capita. The last time I browsed the dead tree format in depth USN&WR rankings in Wally World they placed Texas ahead of Rice on some sub-rankings.

And now you’ve moved the goalposts to online degrees. Ivies are among the worst offenders yet highest ranked in every stack ranking in that space. They trade on their pedigree while selling their online programs to for-profit third parties to operate while having crap admission standards and ripping off unsuspecting applicants.

Ranking by ROI is in fact a knock against schools that graduate a lot of teachers and social workers starting with USNWR which is nothing other than than a prestige (student income ranking) list. Ranking universities by ROI disadvantages schools that graduate lots teachers because teachers have low earnings. OTOH schools such as GA State, unlike, oh I don’t know, GA Tech, do a good job of graduating students from low-income families and promoting social mobility by graduating lots of teachers and social workers. Half of GA State students receive Pell grants. Less than 15% of Tech undergrads receive Pell grants. We obsessively rank what we value which more often than not isn’t things like social mobility.

Good job by Tech though with their online degree program.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2019 07:06 AM by LostInSpace.)
09-11-2019 07:05 AM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 05:49 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Thanks for the links.

It’s not even just that, lists like these drastically favor smaller schools. If South Carolina for example decided to cut their enrollment in half by eliminating the bottom 50% of each class their average test scores and faculty/student ratio would skyrocket. But does being more exclusive somehow make the school any better? They’re still offering the same programs, the same professors, and the same research output

I think "like these" is important, because it shows that it's not just USNWR. Heck it's everybody.

I mean, is there a list of colleges in existence that doesn't have Harvard and Stanford above South Carolina and USF?

I don't think so, and that's just because the consensus everywhere is that the former are better schools.
09-11-2019 07:10 AM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-11-2019 07:10 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:49 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Thanks for the links.

It’s not even just that, lists like these drastically favor smaller schools. If South Carolina for example decided to cut their enrollment in half by eliminating the bottom 50% of each class their average test scores and faculty/student ratio would skyrocket. But does being more exclusive somehow make the school any better? They’re still offering the same programs, the same professors, and the same research output

I think "like these" is important, because it shows that it's not just USNWR. Heck it's everybody.

I mean, is there a list of colleges in existence that doesn't have Harvard and Stanford above South Carolina and USF?

I don't think so, and that's just because the consensus everywhere is that the former are better schools.

It’s not everybody. There are ranking lists that aren’t simply rankings of prestige and household income of undergrads. See Washington Monthly as an example. It just isn’t as well-known as USNWR. After the extremely small list of enormously prestigious and enormously well endowed universities (Stanford, Harvard and a small number of others) there isn’t an obvious group of inherently “better” aka more prestigious schools.

If I live in SC and my child wants wants to be a teacher, she’s far better off attending USCe than Boston College though BC is more prestigious than USC. People are really damn dumb if they focus on general prestige rather than intended major and price. I’ve got a daughter attending UGA who was admitted to Emory for that specific reason. She’ll have no debt when she graduates from UGA which is extremely valuable and she’ll have no difficulty getting into a good grad school from UGA but Emory is more more prestigious.
09-11-2019 07:38 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-11-2019 07:38 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 07:10 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:49 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Thanks for the links.

It’s not even just that, lists like these drastically favor smaller schools. If South Carolina for example decided to cut their enrollment in half by eliminating the bottom 50% of each class their average test scores and faculty/student ratio would skyrocket. But does being more exclusive somehow make the school any better? They’re still offering the same programs, the same professors, and the same research output

I think "like these" is important, because it shows that it's not just USNWR. Heck it's everybody.

I mean, is there a list of colleges in existence that doesn't have Harvard and Stanford above South Carolina and USF?

I don't think so, and that's just because the consensus everywhere is that the former are better schools.

It’s not everybody. There are ranking lists that aren’t simply rankings of prestige and household income of undergrads. See Washington Monthly as an example. It just isn’t as well-known as USNWR. After the extremely small list of enormously prestigious and enormously well endowed universities (Stanford, Harvard and a small number of others) there isn’t an obvious group of inherently “better” aka more prestigious schools.

If I live in SC and my child wants wants to be a teacher, she’s far better off attending USCe than Boston College though BC is more prestigious than USC. People are really damn dumb if they focus on general prestige rather than intended major and price. I’ve got a daughter attending UGA who was admitted to Emory for that specific reason. She’ll have no debt when she graduates from UGA which is extremely valuable and she’ll have no difficulty getting into a good grad school from UGA but Emory is more more prestigious.

I agree with you about looking at major and price. But you didn't contradict my point, which is that nobody ranks South Carolina and USF above Stanford and Harvard.
09-11-2019 07:53 AM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-11-2019 07:10 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:49 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(09-10-2019 05:20 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?
Oh, like Northeastern and Oklahoma?

Others who manipulated data includes:
UTSA
Akron
Boston University
UC Riverside
Bowling Green

Top ways in how they manipulate their data

Thanks for the links.

It’s not even just that, lists like these drastically favor smaller schools. If South Carolina for example decided to cut their enrollment in half by eliminating the bottom 50% of each class their average test scores and faculty/student ratio would skyrocket. But does being more exclusive somehow make the school any better? They’re still offering the same programs, the same professors, and the same research output

I think "like these" is important, because it shows that it's not just USNWR. Heck it's everybody.

I mean, is there a list of colleges in existence that doesn't have Harvard and Stanford above South Carolina and USF?

I don't think so, and that's just because the consensus everywhere is that the former are better schools.

Not arguing that - those schools are world renowned.

I'll use Clemson and SC as an example because I know those schools the best. SC is ranked 104 while Clemson is 70. But what is the inherent difference between the two? Clemson has higher average SAT scores and has a better faculty/student ratio, but that is mostly just a reflection of SC admitting more students each year (~5800 for SC compared to about ~3800 for Clemson). If SC decided overnight to only admit 3800 students in 2020 and cut out the bottom 2000, their test scores would skyrocket and their ratio would improve considerably. But does that make SC any better than it was before? They're still taking the same quality of student at the top end, they're just taking fewer ones at the bottom.

If I was redoing the USNWR I'd include a metric along the lines of "average SAT of top 2500 freshmen" or something along those lines. So while at Notre Dame this would simply be the entire freshman class, at SC or USF it would mean their top students. Doing this would account for the fact that some schools have totally different missions that private universities don't share.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2019 08:17 AM by Gamecock.)
09-11-2019 08:07 AM
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Post: #19
RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
Marshall wouldn't qualify as a top tier COMMUNITY COLLEGE. Its basically a High School, but with ash trays...

.
09-11-2019 08:31 AM
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RE: Marshall moves up to Top Tier National University
(09-10-2019 06:02 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(09-09-2019 04:00 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  These rankings are sort of a joke anyway - haven't a ton of schools been caught openly manipulating the rankings by giving themselves anonymous reviews and lying about student/teacher ratios?

You don't need fraud to make these rankings a joke. They do not normalize per capita, which is a giant give away to factory farms with over 50,000 students. As a result, Rice will never be ahead of Texas in the rankings even though we all know Rice is the better school. They do not discriminate on degree difficulty, content, or achievement .... so a degree in nuclear engineering with a 4.0 is worth just as much as a degree in interdisciplinary studies with a 2.5 is worth just as much as a degree in being a Trotskyite failure and social burden. If you were to actually sort by types of degrees, normalize per capita, take into account ROI on salary after graduation, etc .... the list would look alien to most people. You'd find sitting right up at the top the Colorado School of Mines, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Johns Hopkins, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve, and Rensselaer Polytechnic.

Poor Merchant Marine Academy, always neglected.
09-11-2019 09:20 AM
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