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Rethinking the university
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Rethinking the university
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."
09-05-2019 11:57 AM
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RE: Rethinking the university
(09-05-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."

What nobody should forget is that it was well rounded minds that created the technology. Greeks invented the first computer (antikythera device). Logic led to the loom which was the spark that generated the IBM punch card. And it was reason that figured out orbits and all of it happened long before the computer. What good is technology without morality, logic, the ability to reason, and an orientation as to how it may all be applied across all spheres of disciplines and across the spectrum of life.

Without well rounded minds we will become slaves to technology.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 03:26 PM by JRsec.)
09-05-2019 03:19 PM
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RE: Rethinking the university
(09-05-2019 03:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."

What nobody should forget is that it was well rounded minds that created the technology. Greeks invented the first computer (antikythera device). Logic led to the loom which was the spark that generated the IBM punch card. And it was reason that figured out orbits and all of it happened long before the computer. What good is technology without morality, logic, the ability to reason, and an orientation as to how it may all be applied across all spheres of disciplines and across the spectrum of life.

Without well rounded minds we will become slaves to technology.

I completely agree.

But I think that modern liberal arts "education" at most schools does nothing to round anyone out.

I have a history minor from an elite private school, and a PhD in economics. But every bit of civics & morals that I learned after 8th grade was either self-taught or from either my high school comparative governments teacher or a priest. Or from visiting museums, battlefields, foreign countries, and old relatives. Not one bit of civics or morals was from my college liberal arts classes.

Maybe I'm the exception. I know several people with philosophy degrees from very conservative Christian schools who disagree with me.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2019 10:10 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
09-08-2019 10:09 PM
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RE: Rethinking the university
(09-08-2019 10:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 03:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."

What nobody should forget is that it was well rounded minds that created the technology. Greeks invented the first computer (antikythera device). Logic led to the loom which was the spark that generated the IBM punch card. And it was reason that figured out orbits and all of it happened long before the computer. What good is technology without morality, logic, the ability to reason, and an orientation as to how it may all be applied across all spheres of disciplines and across the spectrum of life.

Without well rounded minds we will become slaves to technology.

I completely agree.

But I think that modern liberal arts "education" at most schools does nothing to round anyone out.

I have a history minor from an elite private school, and a PhD in economics. But every bit of civics & morals that I learned after 8th grade was either self-taught or from either my high school comparative governments teacher or a priest. Or from visiting museums, battlefields, foreign countries, and old relatives. Not one bit of civics or morals was from my college liberal arts classes.

Maybe I'm the exception. I know several people with philosophy degrees from very conservative Christian schools who disagree with me.

No, you aren't the exception. And I totally agree with you in this regard. I've had a work life that spanned more than 40 years. In the modern multi national corporation there are corporate ethics, but their application and interpretation is a universe away from what is right and what is wrong, what is loyal and disloyal is a one way street with the employee on the wrong end, and the admission of a wrong is impossible for fear of liability. It resembles nothing of the more hard and fast morality and ethics I learned early in life, and I am glad to say from high school teachers and select college professors who saw their work as a calling and the young people before them as their responsibility. I was also blessed by what I learned from family and the Church. In the last 30 years of my work life all of that was going and then gone. And the impersonal world in which we live we are reduced to a number, or a linkedin page, and are treated antiseptically by those above us in the chain of command. Add to that the fact we are also now largely and impersonally connected through electronics instead of real face time and all of it has only served to marginalize integrity, ethics, and morality all the more. It is why accountability, responsibility, and true cooperative teamwork are also disappearing from the work place at too many companies.

So no you are not the exception. Your experience is the norm.
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2019 10:34 PM by JRsec.)
09-08-2019 10:30 PM
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RE: Rethinking the university
(09-08-2019 10:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-08-2019 10:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 03:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."

What nobody should forget is that it was well rounded minds that created the technology. Greeks invented the first computer (antikythera device). Logic led to the loom which was the spark that generated the IBM punch card. And it was reason that figured out orbits and all of it happened long before the computer. What good is technology without morality, logic, the ability to reason, and an orientation as to how it may all be applied across all spheres of disciplines and across the spectrum of life.

Without well rounded minds we will become slaves to technology.

I completely agree.

But I think that modern liberal arts "education" at most schools does nothing to round anyone out.

I have a history minor from an elite private school, and a PhD in economics. But every bit of civics & morals that I learned after 8th grade was either self-taught or from either my high school comparative governments teacher or a priest. Or from visiting museums, battlefields, foreign countries, and old relatives. Not one bit of civics or morals was from my college liberal arts classes.

Maybe I'm the exception. I know several people with philosophy degrees from very conservative Christian schools who disagree with me.

No, you aren't the exception. And I totally agree with you in this regard. I've had a work life that spanned more than 40 years. In the modern multi national corporation there are corporate ethics, but their application and interpretation is a universe away from what is right and what is wrong, what is loyal and disloyal is a one way street with the employee on the wrong end, and the admission of a wrong is impossible for fear of liability. It resembles nothing of the more hard and fast morality and ethics I learned early in life, and I am glad to say from high school teachers and select college professors who saw their work as a calling and the young people before them as their responsibility. I was also blessed by what I learned from family and the Church. In the last 30 years of my work life all of that was going and then gone. And the impersonal world in which we live we are reduced to a number, or a linkedin page, and are treated antiseptically by those above us in the chain of command. Add to that the fact we are also now largely and impersonally connected through electronics instead of real face time and all of it has only served to marginalize integrity, ethics, and morality all the more. It is why accountability, responsibility, and true cooperative teamwork are also disappearing from the work place at too many companies.

So no you are not the exception. Your experience is the norm.

You just described some of the very reasons I gave up a 6 figure income from a Fortune 10 company to take an early retirement. I grew weary of being a corporate whore who was constantly forced to give up my own free will and forced to compromise my personal values and integrity. Once I started rejecting and questioning their dogmatic policies and practices it became clear I had hit the ceiling on any further advancements.

I now exist on a fixed income, have much less money and am more stress free than at any other time in my professional life. Screw the rat race.
10-17-2019 09:16 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Rethinking the university
(10-17-2019 09:16 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  
(09-08-2019 10:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-08-2019 10:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 03:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...ng/597310/

17 good questions from Ben Sasse about the future of the university.

"...Here’s the problem: Higher education is in the middle of multiple, massive disruptions—and it isn’t clear that the leaders of the sector grasp the magnitude of the waves of change breaking on their ivy-covered gates.

As just one example, it is decreasingly clear what purpose a four-year degree should serve when technology is changing the nature of work. These tidal economic and cultural changes should be prompting serious soul-searching in every board and faculty meeting, but most universities are deliberating with the urgency of 1951 becoming 1952...."

What nobody should forget is that it was well rounded minds that created the technology. Greeks invented the first computer (antikythera device). Logic led to the loom which was the spark that generated the IBM punch card. And it was reason that figured out orbits and all of it happened long before the computer. What good is technology without morality, logic, the ability to reason, and an orientation as to how it may all be applied across all spheres of disciplines and across the spectrum of life.

Without well rounded minds we will become slaves to technology.

I completely agree.

But I think that modern liberal arts "education" at most schools does nothing to round anyone out.

I have a history minor from an elite private school, and a PhD in economics. But every bit of civics & morals that I learned after 8th grade was either self-taught or from either my high school comparative governments teacher or a priest. Or from visiting museums, battlefields, foreign countries, and old relatives. Not one bit of civics or morals was from my college liberal arts classes.

Maybe I'm the exception. I know several people with philosophy degrees from very conservative Christian schools who disagree with me.

No, you aren't the exception. And I totally agree with you in this regard. I've had a work life that spanned more than 40 years. In the modern multi national corporation there are corporate ethics, but their application and interpretation is a universe away from what is right and what is wrong, what is loyal and disloyal is a one way street with the employee on the wrong end, and the admission of a wrong is impossible for fear of liability. It resembles nothing of the more hard and fast morality and ethics I learned early in life, and I am glad to say from high school teachers and select college professors who saw their work as a calling and the young people before them as their responsibility. I was also blessed by what I learned from family and the Church. In the last 30 years of my work life all of that was going and then gone. And the impersonal world in which we live we are reduced to a number, or a linkedin page, and are treated antiseptically by those above us in the chain of command. Add to that the fact we are also now largely and impersonally connected through electronics instead of real face time and all of it has only served to marginalize integrity, ethics, and morality all the more. It is why accountability, responsibility, and true cooperative teamwork are also disappearing from the work place at too many companies.

So no you are not the exception. Your experience is the norm.

You just described some of the very reasons I gave up a 6 figure income from a Fortune 10 company to take an early retirement. I grew weary of being a corporate whore who was constantly forced to give up my own free will and forced to compromise my personal values and integrity. Once I started rejecting and questioning their dogmatic policies and practices it became clear I had hit the ceiling on any further advancements.

I now exist on a fixed income, have much less money and am more stress free than at any other time in my professional life. Screw the rat race.

Kudos to you! I took an early retirement mostly because an insider told me how afraid the inner circle was that I was going to spill some embarrassing beans on them. Same song as yours. Was just tired of it and knew I had to live with myself. After working 70 to 80 hours a week for years the hardest part on me was learning how to gear it down.

Nothing is worth the stress, and the stress is directly tied to how well you can live with yourself. 04-cheers
10-17-2019 09:41 PM
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RE: Rethinking the university
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rethinkin...27541.html

Some rather disturbing stats:

"No advanced society can thrive without a well-functioning system of higher education. College can be an equalizer, providing opportunity to all regardless of race or class. It can enhance human capital, boosting the economy’s productive capacity. It can make people better citizens.

On all these counts, the U.S.’s system of postsecondary education is falling short. Fixing it will require rethinking what it should be aiming to achieve — and how to pay for it....


The median annual income of people with a bachelor’s degree is about twice that of their high-school-educated counterparts. College graduates are also happier and less likely to die of heart attacks.

Unfortunately, the benefits appear to have little to do with what people actually learn. A 2009 survey across 25 institutions found that four years of college had only a limited effect on critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing. About a third of students saw almost no improvement at all. A separate 2006 study, based on the 2003 National Assessment of Adult Literacy, found that just 31 percent of college graduates could correctly explain and compare opposing newspaper editorials...." <the latter explains a lot>
(This post was last modified: 10-22-2019 08:50 AM by bullet.)
10-22-2019 08:50 AM
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RE: Rethinking the university
One definitely good idea in the article:

"...To shed more light on quality, Congress should allow the Department of Education to bring together the tax and other data needed to provide a complete picture of the expected return of different schools and programs. All this information should be available on the department’s College Scorecard website, along with other metrics on transfer and part-time students and veterans. Such transparency can help students avoid aiming for degrees they can’t complete, or ending up with big debts and worthless diplomas...."
10-22-2019 08:54 AM
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RE: Rethinking the university
IMO, every degree can be useful, but all of them aren’t going to have linear success.

This is the reason that I think that the culture of starting university at 18 should probably change. Kids are coming directly out of high school, mostly with no real understanding of any industry. If they go just take a shot in the dark with a biology or sociology or English degree, it may not end well for them.
10-23-2019 12:25 PM
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RE: Rethinking the university
Quote:1. Tuition consistently rises faster than inflation—why? Does tuition increase because costs are up, or are costs up because universities can increase prices?

This is my biggest issue with the university system. There is no incentive for tuition costs to be held in check or [the Lord forbid] reduced because students/families increasingly use loans to make up the difference. I'm absolutely shocked at how much a college education now costs [I have two teens preparing for college] compared to when I graduated with a Master's degree in 2003. As more students rely on loans to help offset rising tuition costs, that is less money they can spend [delayed] on items that help our economy [e.g. a home] after graduation due to student loan debt. Some of the salaries of professors and university president's are out of control. Professors making big bucks teaching courses that provide little ROI for the student [e.g. The Causal Impact Of Macro-Feminism In Emerging Pacific Island Cultures]. These types of courses seem to be more incubators of keeping the university system filled with lifer academicians. Don't get me wrong, we need higher education but it has become out of whack with reality.

I believe the community college system is an increasingly good option for students because it is very affordable and gives young folks more time to consider what type of career they are interested in. In my county where I live our community college is really tied in to local businesses and industries for job training, apprenticeships, vocation certification, high tech manufacturing, etc., giving students more career/job options. If more folks choose community colleges and less are flocking to traditional universities then perhaps higher tuition costs may flatline/decrease due to lower enrollment numbers. Then again, costs could rise even higher to offset less revenue in the academician coffers. Something's got to give...
11-06-2019 08:17 AM
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RE: Rethinking the university
(11-06-2019 08:17 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
Quote:1. Tuition consistently rises faster than inflation—why? Does tuition increase because costs are up, or are costs up because universities can increase prices?

This is my biggest issue with the university system. There is no incentive for tuition costs to be held in check or [the Lord forbid] reduced because students/families increasingly use loans to make up the difference. I'm absolutely shocked at how much a college education now costs [I have two teens preparing for college] compared to when I graduated with a Master's degree in 2003. As more students rely on loans to help offset rising tuition costs, that is less money they can spend [delayed] on items that help our economy [e.g. a home] after graduation due to student loan debt. Some of the salaries of professors and university president's are out of control. Professors making big bucks teaching courses that provide little ROI for the student [e.g. The Causal Impact Of Macro-Feminism In Emerging Pacific Island Cultures]. These types of courses seem to be more incubators of keeping the university system filled with lifer academicians. Don't get me wrong, we need higher education but it has become out of whack with reality.

I believe the community college system is an increasingly good option for students because it is very affordable and gives young folks more time to consider what type of career they are interested in. In my county where I live our community college is really tied in to local businesses and industries for job training, apprenticeships, vocation certification, high tech manufacturing, etc., giving students more career/job options. If more folks choose community colleges and less are flocking to traditional universities then perhaps higher tuition costs may flatline/decrease due to lower enrollment numbers. Then again, costs could rise even higher to offset less revenue in the academician coffers. Something's got to give...

Community college is a good alternative. But most want the college lifestyle as opposed to commuting.

Its unreal how much the cost has gone up. When I went to the University of Texas, it was $200 a semester for tuition and fees. In the 80s they tripled the costs. In the 90s and since, they keep increasing every year.
11-06-2019 12:52 PM
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Post: #12
RE: Rethinking the university
(11-06-2019 12:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-06-2019 08:17 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
Quote:1. Tuition consistently rises faster than inflation—why? Does tuition increase because costs are up, or are costs up because universities can increase prices?
This is my biggest issue with the university system. There is no incentive for tuition costs to be held in check or [the Lord forbid] reduced because students/families increasingly use loans to make up the difference. I'm absolutely shocked at how much a college education now costs [I have two teens preparing for college] compared to when I graduated with a Master's degree in 2003. As more students rely on loans to help offset rising tuition costs, that is less money they can spend [delayed] on items that help our economy [e.g. a home] after graduation due to student loan debt. Some of the salaries of professors and university president's are out of control. Professors making big bucks teaching courses that provide little ROI for the student [e.g. The Causal Impact Of Macro-Feminism In Emerging Pacific Island Cultures]. These types of courses seem to be more incubators of keeping the university system filled with lifer academicians. Don't get me wrong, we need higher education but it has become out of whack with reality.
I believe the community college system is an increasingly good option for students because it is very affordable and gives young folks more time to consider what type of career they are interested in. In my county where I live our community college is really tied in to local businesses and industries for job training, apprenticeships, vocation certification, high tech manufacturing, etc., giving students more career/job options. If more folks choose community colleges and less are flocking to traditional universities then perhaps higher tuition costs may flatline/decrease due to lower enrollment numbers. Then again, costs could rise even higher to offset less revenue in the academician coffers. Something's got to give...
Community college is a good alternative. But most want the college lifestyle as opposed to commuting.
Its unreal how much the cost has gone up. When I went to the University of Texas, it was $200 a semester for tuition and fees. In the 80s they tripled the costs. In the 90s and since, they keep increasing every year.

I was in the first class at Rice to pay tuition. $1200 a year, and you were guaranteed your freshman rate until you graduated. We thought that was outrageous, but compared to today it's nothing.
11-06-2019 01:03 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Rethinking the university
(10-22-2019 08:50 AM)bullet Wrote:  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rethinkin...27541.html

Some rather disturbing stats:

"No advanced society can thrive without a well-functioning system of higher education. College can be an equalizer, providing opportunity to all regardless of race or class. It can enhance human capital, boosting the economy’s productive capacity. It can make people better citizens.

On all these counts, the U.S.’s system of postsecondary education is falling short. Fixing it will require rethinking what it should be aiming to achieve — and how to pay for it....


The median annual income of people with a bachelor’s degree is about twice that of their high-school-educated counterparts. College graduates are also happier and less likely to die of heart attacks.

Unfortunately, the benefits appear to have little to do with what people actually learn. A 2009 survey across 25 institutions found that four years of college had only a limited effect on critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing. About a third of students saw almost no improvement at all. A separate 2006 study, based on the 2003 National Assessment of Adult Literacy, found that just 31 percent of college graduates could correctly explain and compare opposing newspaper editorials...." <the latter explains a lot>

Fixing it will require the abandonment of identity politics and the treatment of each person as a unique creation with gifts and graces which are to be identified and built upon and the agreement that at the grade school level competence must be displayed across a baseline of subjects.

Teaching individual achievement, personal responsibility, and allegiance to the only country we have should also be essentials of a well rounded education.

Educations job is to teach people how to be productive in moral in and ethical ways. It needs to teach and orient students to our way of life (what it means to be a constitutional Republic, how capitalism works, and what it means to be a productive citizen).

We are failing miserably because we are not doing any of these things. We stress diversity (identity politics) which divide rather than unite the nation, we don't teach kids how to be productive, we don't teach them their rights and responsibilities as citizens, we don't teach them the common morality of law and consequently the ethical relationship between business, government, and citizenship, and worst of all we teach them how to bellyache to get what they want, which is destructive to all of their future relationships inside and outside of work.

It's not just a failure of the education system, but rather a subverting of it with the intention of destroying our society.

Nothing can be so intentionally wrong without being orchestrated. Stupidity is random and imprecise. What we have today has been intentionally instilled across a spectrum of disciplines and carefully introduced and groomed to reach its current level of destruction.
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2019 02:19 PM by JRsec.)
11-06-2019 02:17 PM
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