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A Proposal For The PUF
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DawgNBama Offline
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A Proposal For The PUF
I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.
09-05-2019 04:20 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

What about the North Texas and Texas State systems, as well as the independent publics? It would make sense to distribute the fund to all public state colleges and universities in a proportional manner, maybe based on enrollment.
09-05-2019 05:08 AM
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TodgeRodge Online
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
people that come up with these ideas have no understanding of the PUF or how it works

the amount of available money is much smaller than people believe it is for a number of reasons

it is a much better idea to try and increase the funding to universities vs trying to bust up the PUF

busting up the PUF will 100% guaranteed result in universities getting lower levels of funding in the long run no matter what they believe
09-05-2019 07:05 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #4
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.
09-05-2019 08:10 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston.

03-lmfao

Good luck with that.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 09:31 AM by quo vadis.)
09-05-2019 09:31 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #6
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?
09-05-2019 10:14 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #7
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.
09-05-2019 10:18 AM
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TodgeRodge Online
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)
09-05-2019 10:59 AM
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Post: #9
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 04:20 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I've actually thought about this a lot, and looked at it from several different angles. UT & TAMU would be forced to share the PUF with Texas Tech and the University of Houston. Because UT & TAMU do have huge networks of branch campuses, they both get one third of the PUF. TTU & UH would each get one sixth, because they are smaller universities.

Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.
09-05-2019 11:19 AM
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10thMountain Offline
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
That’s not how it works

#1 the PUF funds dozens of schools and state agencies not just College Station and Austin

#2 You have to amend the TX Constitution to alter the PUF...good luck

#3 Every school in the state would demand an equal share thus rendering the PUF worthless to everyone
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 12:05 PM by 10thMountain.)
09-05-2019 12:04 PM
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TodgeRodge Online
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RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I will address the PUF first since that is what started the topic

"access to the PUF" means nothing unless it is getting ADDITIONAL DOLLARS over and above state formula funding and there is little chance of any non-UT system school getting that simply because they were added to the system especially when no UT system school gets that now as a PUF participant

It is much smarter to actually go after additional state funding, but that is not really he goal of the PUFers the goal is to take something from UT and maybe from aggy as well

that has about zero chance of having success if the PUFers cared they would simply go after the state to properly fund the NRUF endowment and to go ahead and create the 3rd endowment that was proposed for schools that will never be emerging research universities and never meet NRUF qualifications

but instead of going after the state during times when there is a budget surplus to add hard dollars to the NRUF endowment (like $200 to $250 million per year for the two year budget cycle) the PUFer idiots waste their time filing bills that are dead on arrival to try and get a share of the PUF

there are 4 independent universities in Texas....TSU, Midwestern, Stephen F. Austin and TWU

in the past TWU tried to be a system, but found it was a waste and went back to being a single university with 3 campuses main campus on Denton and then the health components in dallas and Houston

I think the easiest thing to do would be merge Midwestern and Sul Ross into Texas Tech's System

merge Lamar and SHSU into the UH System and let Texas State be independent

from there merge (the massively FAILED) north Texas state dallas back under the Denton campus or better yet shut it down and sell the building to DCCCD (really shutting that massive failure down is the best option)

put a 100% STOP on all system centers and start shutting many of them down and or forcing them to give up their real estate and merge in with a local community college

rewrite the formula funding for health science centers so that there is not a net loss of funding for a medical school/HSC being under the administration of a 4 year school (the issue with merging Tech and their Lubbock HSC) and then start merging some of those

tell north Texas state they are no longer a system and stop their Frisco campus as well before it buys any property

with that you would have eliminated the Texas State System and left Texas State as a stand alone university.....it will be all but impossible to stop them from trying to offer more PhDs as they are now an emerging research university and going after NRUF funding (and ahead of north Texas state in that quest and probably about tied with UTSA (UTA will be the next to qualify).....also SHSU and Lamar are not going to stop offering the PhDs they offer especially if Texas State is allowed to and all the more so in a "weak system" model with no flagship school

plus the reality is the California plan was a good plan in the past, but now it us severely holding back SDSU, Cal Poly, Fresno, Long Beach, and probably Northridge

it is a better plan to give some strength to the THECB to put a stop to the legislature and universities (and failed system plans) to go around offering duplicate programs and opening up garbage system centers all over the place

from there is you really want to make a difference it will be much harder to do

if I could just wave a wand TSU would be gone, some of the land and buildings offered to UH and then the remaining land and buildings not needed sold off and then UH Downtown would be renamed Houston Metropolitan (as it should have been a few years ago before their idiot faculty got involved) and the successful programs and professional programs from TSU would be merged into Houston Metro and the UH downtown campus would be their campus

the UH System would get a chancellor that is not the president of the main campus with the addition of Lamar and SHSU and the TSU/UHD merger

so from there would have eliminated the Texas State System......two independent universities (Midwestern to Tech and TSU closed) and created one new independent university Texas State......with a FIRM ROUND ROCK WILL NOT BE A NEW CAMPUS JUST health components

also no more north Texas state system just north Texas state Denton and their programs littering the dallas metro area in conjunction AND ON community college campuses no more free standing schools and system centers

I would merge UTD and UTSW and I would take TCOM from the north Texas state system and merge it with UTA and make TCOM a PUF participant (which is again pretty meaningless overall in terms of funding)

so from there two systems gone (Texas State and north Texas state), one independent university gone TSU and one merged into a system (Midwestern into Tech) and 3 medical schools merged into 4 year schools.....Tech HSC Lubbock/Tech, UTSW/UTD and TCOM/UTD

merges UT-HSC-SA into UTSA....leave UTHSC Tyler alone for the time being

also merge Texas A&I and aggy Corpus under one campus like UTRGV (proposed, but not-so sharp really screwed that up because he is a massive idiot)

close the aggy McAllen campus, shut down all REVIS plans in College Station......make sure that aggy Central Texas stays upper division only

from there one could go ahead and decide if they wanted Stephen F. Austin, TWU, Texas State, and north Texas state to remain independent of fire back up the Texas State System and merge them all into it along with UH, Houston Metro, Lamar, SHSU, and UHV and move the headquarters into the Texas State System building they just bought from the UT System

if that was done there would be no independent universities and 4 systems and a number fewer of independent medical schools and more medical schools aligned with 4 year universities

oh PS one other thing that would actually be done first before anything else.....shut down the massively failed north Texas state law school and allow all current students to transfer to aggy law in Fort Worth
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 12:19 PM by TodgeRodge.)
09-05-2019 12:08 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #12
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 08:10 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Isn't it currently 2/3 to UT-Austin and 1/3 to A&M?

If so, UT-Austin is not going to give up 1/3 to Tech and Houston with A&M staying the same.

Further, UT-Dallas deserves to share in it as well.

So 50% UT, 25% A&M (to preserve the current 2:1 ratio) and 8.3% to Tech, UT-Dallas and Houston.

Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I doubt thats going to happen. By the way, the UH Medical school is already approved and running. Given Houstons growth, I'd say the first new medical school in the Houston area in nearly 50 years probably was needed.

Texas seems to like muddling along with its current funding system--but I think its ridiculously antiquated. If you were starting from scratch---you'd never create a higher education funding mechanism that looks like the one we have. Plus, it hasnt really worked all that well. For all that money, Texas has NO schools in the USNWR top 25 and only one in the top 50 (Texas just squeaked in, tied for #49 with 3 other schools). Meanwhile, California has 5 or 6 schools in that top 50.

Personally, I think we'd be better off just dumping all the money into one bucket and funding universities like everyone else does--but that requires change---and Texas doesnt do change. I suspect condensing some of the systems might be more efficient---but the nasty political fight to flat out eliminate schools like N Texas and Houston and folding them into other systems is probably not a fight anyone is willing to invest that much political capital in. It just wouldnt make enough difference to make the battle worth it. Nope---I suspect the Texas Legislature will just keep on doing what its been doing---thats been their history when it comes to higher ed.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 02:53 PM by Attackcoog.)
09-05-2019 12:17 PM
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Post: #13
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 12:04 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  That’s not how it works

#1 the PUF funds dozens of schools and state agencies not just College Station and Austin

#2 You have to amend the TX Constitution to alter the PUF...good luck

#3 Every school in the state would demand an equal share thus rendering the PUF worthless to everyone

That’s what I told the fan from the school in Lubbock the other day. If they feel the PUF is unfair, use their political “power” to amend the Constitution. It’ll never make it past a committee plus they don’t want to upset the golden goose that can take them to another power conference.
09-05-2019 01:14 PM
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UTEPDallas Offline
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Post: #14
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
Texas politics is full of “gold ol’ boys” politicians who like the status quo. It’ll take another generation or perhaps a takeover from the other political party to overhaul Texas higher education. It’s such a shame a big, fast growing, wealthy state as Texas has just two public AAU schools (UT and A&M) and a private one (Rice) while California has multiple AAU schools. Opening the PUF to other schools won’t help funding, it’ll only dilute it.
09-05-2019 01:21 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #15
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
I agree UTEP, the current system is massively inefficient and as someone else pointed out, doesn’t produce any Top 25 public schools

But the problem is that education funding is picking winners and losers and no one wants to do that and hurt their re-election chances by telling one school “you get Flagship level funding” while another “you need to be consolidated into a rival schools system” and another “you don’t need to exist at all”
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 01:29 PM by 10thMountain.)
09-05-2019 01:28 PM
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Post: #16
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 12:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I doubt thats going to happen. By the way, the UH Medical school is already approved and running. Given Houstons growth, I'd say the first new medical school in the Houston area in nearly 50 years probably was needed.

Texas seems to like muddling along with its current funding system--but I think its ridiculously antiquated. If you were starting from scratch---you'd never create a higher education funding mechanism that looks like the one we have. Plus, it hasnt really worked all that well. For all that money, Texas has NO schools in the USNWR top 25 and only one in the top 50 (Texas just squeaked in, tied for #49 with 3 other schools). Meanwhile, California has 5 or 6 schools in that top 50.


Personally, I think we'd be better off just dumping all the money into one bucket and funding universities like everyone else does--but that requires change---and Texas doesnt do change. I suspect condensing some of the systems might be more efficient---but the nasty political fight to flat out eliminate schools like N Texas and Houston and fold them into other systems is probably not a fight anyone is willing to invest that much political capital in. It just wouldnt make enough difference to make the battle worth it. Nope---I suspect the Texas Legislature will just keep on doing what its been doing---thats been their history when it comes to higher ed.

Some of that is a result of top 10%/7%/6% rule. This definitely increases diversity of the school, but it also lowers average SAT scores, hurts admission rates, etc. The forced admission rule also hurts graduation rates because students who are not college ready are automatically admitted. USNWR have the school ranked #49, but when you look at individual programs they are mostly ranked far above that number.

I am not saying the rule in itself is a bad thing. I actually like the top (whatever it is now)% rule. I think it is a great way for students from all over the state and different backgrounds to get admitted to the premier university in the state. However, I do think it harms UT/TAMU when looking at the national university rankings.
09-05-2019 01:33 PM
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Post: #17
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 12:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I doubt thats going to happen. By the way, the UH Medical school is already approved and running. Given Houstons growth, I'd say the first new medical school in the Houston area in nearly 50 years probably was needed.

Texas seems to like muddling along with its current funding system--but I think its ridiculously antiquated. If you were starting from scratch---you'd never create a higher education funding mechanism that looks like the one we have. Plus, it hasnt really worked all that well. For all that money, Texas has NO schools in the USNWR top 25 and only one in the top 50 (Texas just squeaked in, tied for #49 with 3 other schools). Meanwhile, California has 5 or 6 schools in that top 50.

Personally, I think we'd be better off just dumping all the money into one bucket and funding universities like everyone else does--but that requires change---and Texas doesnt do change. I suspect condensing some of the systems might be more efficient---but the nasty political fight to flat out eliminate schools like N Texas and Houston and fold them into other systems is probably not a fight anyone is willing to invest that much political capital in. It just wouldnt make enough difference to make the battle worth it. Nope---I suspect the Texas Legislature will just keep on doing what its been doing---thats been their history when it comes to higher ed.

USNWR isn't worth much. Texas is in just about everyone's top 15 public schools. Other than California and Pennsylvania, Texas probably has the strongest #2 public school in the country in A&M.

Its after the top two that the system hasn't worked well. Dallas and Houston need strong public schools.
09-05-2019 02:43 PM
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Post: #18
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 02:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 12:17 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I doubt thats going to happen. By the way, the UH Medical school is already approved and running. Given Houstons growth, I'd say the first new medical school in the Houston area in nearly 50 years probably was needed.

Texas seems to like muddling along with its current funding system--but I think its ridiculously antiquated. If you were starting from scratch---you'd never create a higher education funding mechanism that looks like the one we have. Plus, it hasnt really worked all that well. For all that money, Texas has NO schools in the USNWR top 25 and only one in the top 50 (Texas just squeaked in, tied for #49 with 3 other schools). Meanwhile, California has 5 or 6 schools in that top 50.

Personally, I think we'd be better off just dumping all the money into one bucket and funding universities like everyone else does--but that requires change---and Texas doesnt do change. I suspect condensing some of the systems might be more efficient---but the nasty political fight to flat out eliminate schools like N Texas and Houston and fold them into other systems is probably not a fight anyone is willing to invest that much political capital in. It just wouldnt make enough difference to make the battle worth it. Nope---I suspect the Texas Legislature will just keep on doing what its been doing---thats been their history when it comes to higher ed.

USNWR isn't worth much. Texas is in just about everyone's top 15 public schools. Other than California and Pennsylvania, Texas probably has the strongest #2 public school in the country in A&M.

Its after the top two that the system hasn't worked well. Dallas and Houston need strong public schools.

Agree--Texas and A&M are excellent schools. So are Tech and Houston for that matter---but it would be nice to get 5 or 6 Texas schools into that top 50 range and couple into the top 25.
09-05-2019 02:56 PM
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Post: #19
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 12:08 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:59 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:18 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(09-05-2019 10:14 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Isnt UT-Dallas part of the UT system?

Only campus in the UT-System that can use PUF funds is Austin.

this is incorrect

the only UT System school that gets "excellence" funds from the PUF is UT Austin

in the aggy system College Station and PVAMU get "excellence" funds

the remaining UT and aggy system members that are PUF participants (most of the UT System only a few of the aggy system) get their formula infrastructure funding paid for by the PUF instead of it being paid for by general state revenues, but they do not get any "excellence" funds or any funding over and above formula funding based on the same formulas as all state universities.....it is a simple difference in where the money to cover that particular formula funding comes from

this is one of the main reasons that if the PUF is busted up it will not result in much if any additional revenues to other universities and may even eventually lead to reduced revenues for other universities

because there is a high likelihood once those UT and aggy system schools start getting their formula infrastructure funding paid for by general state revenues that the state will not allocate any additional dollars from general revenues to cover that they will instead allocate the same dollar amount and reduce the dollar funding per formula unit thus everyone will take a hit in the end and the additional PUF dollars they are sharing will not make up for that formula funding decrease

all the more so when idiotic politicians use the busting open of the PUF to start spending into the corpus of the investments like they tried to do with the Permanent School Fund a few years back (and thankfully that was voted down)

What I do think makes sense is reducing the number of "systems" in Texas from 6 to 3 and eliminating the 5 or 6 independents (TSU, Stephen F. Austin, TWU and 2 or 3 others) by moving them into the Texas State University system (currently includes Texas St., Sam Houston St., Sul Ross, Lamar, and 3 Lamar branches in the Golden Triangle).

The Texas St. University system would focus on bachelor's and master's and not Phd.s and research much like the Cal State system. The University of North Texas system would be dissolved with their Dallas campus made simply a learning center and UNT moved into the Texas St. University system as well.

The Texas A&M system probably should be trimmed with some going to the Texas State University system, but if not, simply add Texas Tech, which has a lot of ag programs. Its med school would be merged into TTU and the Texas Tech system dissolved.

UH system would be dissolved with UH-Victoria and UH-Downtown College moved to the Texas St. University system. UH-Clear Lake would be merged into the main campus as a separate location. Houston would become part of the University of Texas system. The UT Health Science Center in Houston could be merged in so UH quits trying to add another unnecessary medical school in Houston.

UT-Dallas has thrived in the UT system and is probably the #3 public school in the state. Houston and Texas Tech would have more access to the PUF than now and that would help them.

I will address the PUF first since that is what started the topic

"access to the PUF" means nothing unless it is getting ADDITIONAL DOLLARS over and above state formula funding and there is little chance of any non-UT system school getting that simply because they were added to the system especially when no UT system school gets that now as a PUF participant

It is much smarter to actually go after additional state funding, but that is not really he goal of the PUFers the goal is to take something from UT and maybe from aggy as well

that has about zero chance of having success if the PUFers cared they would simply go after the state to properly fund the NRUF endowment and to go ahead and create the 3rd endowment that was proposed for schools that will never be emerging research universities and never meet NRUF qualifications

but instead of going after the state during times when there is a budget surplus to add hard dollars to the NRUF endowment (like $200 to $250 million per year for the two year budget cycle) the PUFer idiots waste their time filing bills that are dead on arrival to try and get a share of the PUF

there are 4 independent universities in Texas....TSU, Midwestern, Stephen F. Austin and TWU

in the past TWU tried to be a system, but found it was a waste and went back to being a single university with 3 campuses main campus on Denton and then the health components in dallas and Houston

I think the easiest thing to do would be merge Midwestern and Sul Ross into Texas Tech's System

merge Lamar and SHSU into the UH System and let Texas State be independent

from there merge (the massively FAILED) north Texas state dallas back under the Denton campus or better yet shut it down and sell the building to DCCCD (really shutting that massive failure down is the best option)

put a 100% STOP on all system centers and start shutting many of them down and or forcing them to give up their real estate and merge in with a local community college

rewrite the formula funding for health science centers so that there is not a net loss of funding for a medical school/HSC being under the administration of a 4 year school (the issue with merging Tech and their Lubbock HSC) and then start merging some of those

tell north Texas state they are no longer a system and stop their Frisco campus as well before it buys any property

with that you would have eliminated the Texas State System and left Texas State as a stand alone university.....it will be all but impossible to stop them from trying to offer more PhDs as they are now an emerging research university and going after NRUF funding (and ahead of north Texas state in that quest and probably about tied with UTSA (UTA will be the next to qualify).....also SHSU and Lamar are not going to stop offering the PhDs they offer especially if Texas State is allowed to and all the more so in a "weak system" model with no flagship school

plus the reality is the California plan was a good plan in the past, but now it us severely holding back SDSU, Cal Poly, Fresno, Long Beach, and probably Northridge

it is a better plan to give some strength to the THECB to put a stop to the legislature and universities (and failed system plans) to go around offering duplicate programs and opening up garbage system centers all over the place

from there is you really want to make a difference it will be much harder to do

if I could just wave a wand TSU would be gone, some of the land and buildings offered to UH and then the remaining land and buildings not needed sold off and then UH Downtown would be renamed Houston Metropolitan (as it should have been a few years ago before their idiot faculty got involved) and the successful programs and professional programs from TSU would be merged into Houston Metro and the UH downtown campus would be their campus

the UH System would get a chancellor that is not the president of the main campus with the addition of Lamar and SHSU and the TSU/UHD merger

so from there would have eliminated the Texas State System......two independent universities (Midwestern to Tech and TSU closed) and created one new independent university Texas State......with a FIRM ROUND ROCK WILL NOT BE A NEW CAMPUS JUST health components

also no more north Texas state system just north Texas state Denton and their programs littering the dallas metro area in conjunction AND ON community college campuses no more free standing schools and system centers

I would merge UTD and UTSW and I would take TCOM from the north Texas state system and merge it with UTA and make TCOM a PUF participant (which is again pretty meaningless overall in terms of funding)

so from there two systems gone (Texas State and north Texas state), one independent university gone TSU and one merged into a system (Midwestern into Tech) and 3 medical schools merged into 4 year schools.....Tech HSC Lubbock/Tech, UTSW/UTD and TCOM/UTD

merges UT-HSC-SA into UTSA....leave UTHSC Tyler alone for the time being

also merge Texas A&I and aggy Corpus under one campus like UTRGV (proposed, but not-so sharp really screwed that up because he is a massive idiot)

close the aggy McAllen campus, shut down all REVIS plans in College Station......make sure that aggy Central Texas stays upper division only

from there one could go ahead and decide if they wanted Stephen F. Austin, TWU, Texas State, and north Texas state to remain independent of fire back up the Texas State System and merge them all into it along with UH, Houston Metro, Lamar, SHSU, and UHV and move the headquarters into the Texas State System building they just bought from the UT System

if that was done there would be no independent universities and 4 systems and a number fewer of independent medical schools and more medical schools aligned with 4 year universities

oh PS one other thing that would actually be done first before anything else.....shut down the massively failed north Texas state law school and allow all current students to transfer to aggy law in Fort Worth

Regionalism and rivalries between systems are part of the problem. It particularly hampers development in Houston and Dallas.

The California system does exactly what it needs to do. UCSD is one of the top 15 public universities in the country. They don't need SDSU to try to be the same thing. UCLA, UC-Irvine and UC-Santa Barbara are top tier schools. Looking at an ARWU list from 2016, Irvine was #58 in the world, a couple spots above Vanderbilt and Purdue. UCSB was #42. Northridge and Long Beach don't need to be doing the same thing. California has 6 public AAU schools-Berkeley, UCLA, UCSB, UCSD, UC-Davis and UC-Irvine.

A Georgia legislator was saying (I'm paraphrasing-he is describing the official tiers in Georgia), the technical schools want to offer degrees, the 2 year schools want to be 4 year schools, the local 4 year want to be regional, the regional want to be research universities and who knows what UGA wants to be.

The point in a Cal St. or Texas St. University system is to keep the schools doing their role. Phd's are for professors and researchers. We don't need to train them everywhere. You could grandfather in existing Phd programs, but don't start new ones. DFW doesn't need UTD, UTA and UNT to all be high admission requirement research universities. Houston doesn't need UH, UHCL, UHD, TSU and Prairie View all trying to do the same thing. Austin-San Antonio doesn't need UT, UTSA, Texas St. and Texas A&M-SA trying to do the same thing.
09-05-2019 03:03 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #20
RE: A Proposal For The PUF
(09-05-2019 02:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  USNWR isn't worth much. Texas is in just about everyone's top 15 public schools. Other than California and Pennsylvania, Texas probably has the strongest #2 public school in the country in A&M.

First, USNWR is worth a lot, like it or not. They largely set the bar for national university rankings. Criticize them from here to high heaven if you like, but their rankings are taken seriously by the two entities that matter most - the media and academic administrators.

Second, in this case, they don't disagree with you: Even though Texas is the #49 national university this year, they are the #14 public school.

The great bulk of schools in the top 50 are privates, which is why Coog's complaint about no Texas schools in the top 25 is kind of unrealistic. There are only three public schools in the top 25, and one of them is ranked ... #25.

Public schools are to top college rankings like G5 schools are in the AP top 25 poll. You usually get only a couple in there, and they are usually towards the bottom end.
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2019 03:07 PM by quo vadis.)
09-05-2019 03:04 PM
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