(09-06-2019 09:49 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:26 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:06 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Big East continues to market itself as the leader of all conferences in network broadcasts (nationally televised games). I'm sure that will make UConn happy (especially since many of their games will be behind a paywall).

There is absolutely no difference in a basketball game being on Fox/CBS, and being on ESPN. You look at the top rated games in a year, and almost all are on ESPN....

Also, the only games that will possibly be behind a paywall are the garbage OOC games. There is little to no change in the AAC TV contract from last year- except ESPN3 games are now ESPN+ games. Last year- UConn had every single conference game on TV.

I do not agree with this. I think that is a function of what teams are playing. I mean, weren't over half the 10 top games in ratings all Duke games and the rest Michigan games?

Put those on network tv and see what happens to the ratings...

so just looked
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...rship.aspx

games on CBS you are right being better than ESPN-
CBS- 1.540 million
ESPN- 1.199 million

but Fox- nope
Fox- 894k

oh and as you see-
CBS down 105k year to year
ESPN up 147k year to year
Fox up 27k year to year

Again, this is content related. ESPN had Duke and other high demand teams from ACC and B12 among others. CBS gets to cherry pick only 35 marquee games (many are ones that FOX would have run).

If you take the same games and play them on FOX, they'd probably be similar to CBS and I believe probably higher than ESPN (Except then ESPN wouldn't be promoting them during the rest of their tv lineup of course...).

but is the content changing? Nope. The reality is for college sports is that like you said content drives the ratings. In college football- 95% of all top games are on network TV. In college basketball- that's just not the case- over 75% of the top games are on cable TV.

Also, I think there is something of a game being on CBS as being special. I do think the best thing about this schedule this year is that there was a doubling of CBS games. Fox doesn't have that.

(09-06-2019 09:32 AM)stever20 Wrote:  but those games were not behind a paywall, and they won't be this season.

how do you know that? most of what i've seen suggests those will be on espn+. espn/espn2 are only carrying 25 AAC games and 65 games total on espnu/espnnews and other affiliates. that's around 2 games a year per team on main networks and 5 games total with the rest on espn+

(09-06-2019 12:06 PM)scoscox Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:32 AM)stever20 Wrote:  but those games were not behind a paywall, and they won't be this season.

how do you know that? most of what i've seen suggests those will be on espn+

First off, the new TV deal doesn't start until next year.

2nd off, when they say over half of the games will be on ESPN+, that's counting ALL of the garbage OOC games. I mean last year there were the 108 conference games, along with say 7(using that as an arbitrary number- *12- 84 OOC games- making the number of games 192. Sure there may be a few lower conference games not shown- but a high majority will be.

(09-06-2019 09:58 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:49 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:26 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:10 AM)stever20 Wrote:  There is absolutely no difference in a basketball game being on Fox/CBS, and being on ESPN. You look at the top rated games in a year, and almost all are on ESPN....

Also, the only games that will possibly be behind a paywall are the garbage OOC games. There is little to no change in the AAC TV contract from last year- except ESPN3 games are now ESPN+ games. Last year- UConn had every single conference game on TV.

I do not agree with this. I think that is a function of what teams are playing. I mean, weren't over half the 10 top games in ratings all Duke games and the rest Michigan games?

Put those on network tv and see what happens to the ratings...

so just looked
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...rship.aspx

games on CBS you are right being better than ESPN-
CBS- 1.540 million
ESPN- 1.199 million

but Fox- nope
Fox- 894k

oh and as you see-
CBS down 105k year to year
ESPN up 147k year to year
Fox up 27k year to year

Again, this is content related. ESPN had Duke and other high demand teams from ACC and B12 among others. CBS gets to cherry pick only 35 marquee games (many are ones that FOX would have run).

If you take the same games and play them on FOX, they'd probably be similar to CBS and I believe probably higher than ESPN (Except then ESPN wouldn't be promoting them during the rest of their tv lineup of course...).

but is the content changing? Nope. The reality is for college sports is that like you said content drives the ratings. In college football- 95% of all top games are on network TV. In college basketball- that's just not the case- over 75% of the top games are on cable TV.

Also, I think there is something of a game being on CBS as being special. I do think the best thing about this schedule this year is that there was a doubling of CBS games. Fox doesn't have that.

I guess I am not following your logic. Your original position was that there's no difference between CBS/FOX network broadcasts vs being on ESPN, but now you agree that content is the biggest driver of ratings. So you agree that, as I stated, if you put some of the same content (Duke for example) on network TV that it would out perform ESPN? If so, there is a difference there.

However, this is really missing the point. If you're a fan of an AAC or an ACC middle of the pack team, etc... you're looking at more content on a lower tier channel (or even having to stream or go through a paywall) than if you're say a fan of an average BE or B10 team. (we'll see what happens with ACCN) Does it matter to you if your team gets more exposure? Some people maybe, some people not.

But going back to your premise that there's not much difference between network vs ESPN (that's fine if you hold that belief personally... that's what is great about opinions, everyone has one and they all...) but that's not what will affect those fans the most. There is definitely a difference when you're talking ESPN2/ESPN-U/ESPN+ vs being on FS1.

While declining in viewership, ESPN2 still has the advantage of being next down the channel lineup from ESPN and has promotional crossover with the parent channel. So that's nice... but it really starts going down hill from there. Not to mention the quality of the broadcasts. Flagship FOX and FS1 quality, on air personalities and channel availability are going to be far superior for most BE/B10/B12 games than what an AAC team fan is going to deal with. The perfect example is UConn... It's really hard to deny that this will be a much better situation for UConn next year.



*I wrote this post over a 2 hour time span in starts and stops because of my pesky job getting in the way... sorry if it seems disjointed! Hopefully it is somewhat readable.

(09-06-2019 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 12:06 PM)scoscox Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:32 AM)stever20 Wrote:  but those games were not behind a paywall, and they won't be this season.

how do you know that? most of what i've seen suggests those will be on espn+

First off, the new TV deal doesn't start until next year.

2nd off, when they say over half of the games will be on ESPN+, that's counting ALL of the garbage OOC games. I mean last year there were the 108 conference games, along with say 7(using that as an arbitrary number- *12- 84 OOC games- making the number of games 192. Sure there may be a few lower conference games not shown- but a high majority will be.

Isn't your "2nd off" the whole point we're trying to make?

(09-06-2019 12:16 PM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:58 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:49 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:26 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  I do not agree with this. I think that is a function of what teams are playing. I mean, weren't over half the 10 top games in ratings all Duke games and the rest Michigan games?

Put those on network tv and see what happens to the ratings...

so just looked
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...rship.aspx

games on CBS you are right being better than ESPN-
CBS- 1.540 million
ESPN- 1.199 million

but Fox- nope
Fox- 894k

oh and as you see-
CBS down 105k year to year
ESPN up 147k year to year
Fox up 27k year to year

Again, this is content related. ESPN had Duke and other high demand teams from ACC and B12 among others. CBS gets to cherry pick only 35 marquee games (many are ones that FOX would have run).

If you take the same games and play them on FOX, they'd probably be similar to CBS and I believe probably higher than ESPN (Except then ESPN wouldn't be promoting them during the rest of their tv lineup of course...).

but is the content changing? Nope. The reality is for college sports is that like you said content drives the ratings. In college football- 95% of all top games are on network TV. In college basketball- that's just not the case- over 75% of the top games are on cable TV.

Also, I think there is something of a game being on CBS as being special. I do think the best thing about this schedule this year is that there was a doubling of CBS games. Fox doesn't have that.

I guess I am not following your logic. Your original position was that there's no difference between CBS/FOX network broadcasts vs being on ESPN, but now you agree that content is the biggest driver of ratings. So you agree that, as I stated, if you put some of the same content (Duke for example) on network TV that it would out perform ESPN? If so, there is a difference there.

However, this is really missing the point. If you're a fan of an AAC or an ACC middle of the pack team, etc... you're looking at more content on a lower tier channel (or even having to stream or go through a paywall) than if you're say a fan of an average BE or B10 team. (we'll see what happens with ACCN) Does it matter to you if your team gets more exposure? Some people maybe, some people not.

But going back to your premise that there's not much difference between network vs ESPN (that's fine if you hold that belief personally... that's what is great about opinions, everyone has one and they all...) but that's not what will affect those fans the most. There is definitely a difference when you're talking ESPN2/ESPN-U/ESPN+ vs being on FS1.

While declining in viewership, ESPN2 still has the advantage of being next down the channel lineup from ESPN and has promotional crossover with the parent channel. So that's nice... but it really starts going down hill from there. Not to mention the quality of the broadcasts. Flagship FOX and FS1 quality, on air personalities and channel availability are going to be far superior for most BE/B10/B12 games than what an AAC team fan is going to deal with. The perfect example is UConn... It's really hard to deny that this will be a much better situation for UConn next year.



*I wrote this post over a 2 hour time span in starts and stops because of my pesky job getting in the way... sorry if it seems disjointed! Hopefully it is somewhat readable.

no I don't agree that it would automatically get a higher rating being on Network vs Cable. It really doesn't matter. I would note a few years ago due to appearances- the Auburn/Alabama football game was on ESPN and not CBS. And it drew a great rating(almost 14 million viewers if memory serves me right).

Also, I'd rather be on ESPN2 than FS1. Look at the numbers- ESPN2 gets almost double the viewership over FS1. Some of that is that ESPN2 is close to ESPN, while a lot of times FS1 isn't(in terms of channel location).

(09-06-2019 12:19 PM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 12:06 PM)scoscox Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:32 AM)stever20 Wrote:  but those games were not behind a paywall, and they won't be this season.

how do you know that? most of what i've seen suggests those will be on espn+

First off, the new TV deal doesn't start until next year.

2nd off, when they say over half of the games will be on ESPN+, that's counting ALL of the garbage OOC games. I mean last year there were the 108 conference games, along with say 7(using that as an arbitrary number- *12- 84 OOC games- making the number of games 192. Sure there may be a few lower conference games not shown- but a high majority will be.

Isn't your "2nd off" the whole point we're trying to make?

But it's really not that true.... The games that are going to be on ESPN+ are going to mostly be the garbage OOC games- probably of the 84 OOC games at least 70-75 of those would be on ESPN+. There would be a few conference games on ESPN+.... But not that many.

People here want to make it out where half of the conference games would be on ESPN+. And that is just not the case at all whatsoever.

(09-06-2019 12:24 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 12:16 PM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:58 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:49 AM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 09:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  so just looked
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...rship.aspx

games on CBS you are right being better than ESPN-
CBS- 1.540 million
ESPN- 1.199 million

but Fox- nope
Fox- 894k

oh and as you see-
CBS down 105k year to year
ESPN up 147k year to year
Fox up 27k year to year

Again, this is content related. ESPN had Duke and other high demand teams from ACC and B12 among others. CBS gets to cherry pick only 35 marquee games (many are ones that FOX would have run).

If you take the same games and play them on FOX, they'd probably be similar to CBS and I believe probably higher than ESPN (Except then ESPN wouldn't be promoting them during the rest of their tv lineup of course...).

but is the content changing? Nope. The reality is for college sports is that like you said content drives the ratings. In college football- 95% of all top games are on network TV. In college basketball- that's just not the case- over 75% of the top games are on cable TV.

Also, I think there is something of a game being on CBS as being special. I do think the best thing about this schedule this year is that there was a doubling of CBS games. Fox doesn't have that.

I guess I am not following your logic. Your original position was that there's no difference between CBS/FOX network broadcasts vs being on ESPN, but now you agree that content is the biggest driver of ratings. So you agree that, as I stated, if you put some of the same content (Duke for example) on network TV that it would out perform ESPN? If so, there is a difference there.

However, this is really missing the point. If you're a fan of an AAC or an ACC middle of the pack team, etc... you're looking at more content on a lower tier channel (or even having to stream or go through a paywall) than if you're say a fan of an average BE or B10 team. (we'll see what happens with ACCN) Does it matter to you if your team gets more exposure? Some people maybe, some people not.

But going back to your premise that there's not much difference between network vs ESPN (that's fine if you hold that belief personally... that's what is great about opinions, everyone has one and they all...) but that's not what will affect those fans the most. There is definitely a difference when you're talking ESPN2/ESPN-U/ESPN+ vs being on FS1.

While declining in viewership, ESPN2 still has the advantage of being next down the channel lineup from ESPN and has promotional crossover with the parent channel. So that's nice... but it really starts going down hill from there. Not to mention the quality of the broadcasts. Flagship FOX and FS1 quality, on air personalities and channel availability are going to be far superior for most BE/B10/B12 games than what an AAC team fan is going to deal with. The perfect example is UConn... It's really hard to deny that this will be a much better situation for UConn next year.



*I wrote this post over a 2 hour time span in starts and stops because of my pesky job getting in the way... sorry if it seems disjointed! Hopefully it is somewhat readable.

no I don't agree that it would automatically get a higher rating being on Network vs Cable. It really doesn't matter. I would note a few years ago due to appearances- the Auburn/Alabama football game was on ESPN and not CBS. And it drew a great rating(almost 14 million viewers if memory serves me right).

Also, I'd rather be on ESPN2 than FS1. Look at the numbers- ESPN2 gets almost double the viewership over FS1. Some of that is that ESPN2 is close to ESPN, while a lot of times FS1 isn't(in terms of channel location).

You need to watch more FS1 broadcasts! There's a reason the multi year trend for ESPN is down and Fox/Fox sports is strongly trending up. The quality difference is astounding.


More and people people are catching on. Look at the viewership from 5 years ago when FS1 started showing CBB until now:

Year 13-14 18-19
ESPN 1454k 1199k
ESPN2 414k 330k
FOX 685k* 894k
ESPNU 140k 86k
FS1 94k 171k

*started in 14-15, no games prior
^wish I knew how to do tables in this chat format...

lets look from just 2 years ago-
ESPN goes from 1200k to 1199k. Down 1k viewers
Fox goes from 750k to 894k. up 144k viewers
ESPN2 goes from 360k to 330k. down 30k viewers
FS1 goes from 128k to 171k. up 43k viewers

Yes Fox has made up some ground. But it's still considerably behind ESPN. And ESPN to FS1 just is not that clsoe. Instead of it being almost 10 to 1 it's now 7 to 1.

Also would note that CBS in the 2 year period down from 1688k to 1540k viewers. Down 144k viewers.

I would take it back to the initial part of the discussion. There is little to no difference in a game being on Fox/CBS and being on ESPN. AS we've seen with ESPN, they're still getting well over 1 million viewers per game, a number that Fox just can't match. Just because Big East gets more network games than ACC doesn't mean that it's a better TV package than the ACC.

(09-06-2019 12:44 PM)stever20 Wrote:  lets look from just 2 years ago-
ESPN goes from 1200k to 1199k. Down 1k viewers
Fox goes from 750k to 894k. up 144k viewers
ESPN2 goes from 360k to 330k. down 30k viewers
FS1 goes from 128k to 171k. up 43k viewers

Yes Fox has made up some ground. But it's still considerably behind ESPN. And ESPN to FS1 just is not that clsoe. Instead of it being almost 10 to 1 it's now 7 to 1.

Soooo.... you agree they're making up ground? Here are the full years before the page you linked. The "strong" year for ESPN of 18-19 belies the longer trend.
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...ewers.aspx


Also, what is most important to you, is it ratings or is quality/availability?

For example, the quality broadcast I'm going to get watching Marquette vs Central Arkansas buy game this year (or any buy game on FS1/FSN) on FS1 will be, and I'm just assuming here, far superior to whatever is playing on ESPN2 that day. Even though the ratings will likely be higher on ESPN2.

*edit: you're right, we've gotten away from the flagship network broadcasts vs ESPN. My position on quality still stands though.

Using Alabama/Auburn as "evidence" of viewership not changing is faulty logic. Alabama/Auburn, by itself, is one of the most watched games of the year. There is simply no matchup (with UConn or otherwise) that would be even in the same area code, let alone ballpark, that would be similar for anything from the AAC. If the SEC decided to move all of its content to streaming based services, there would be a significant portion of fans (not all) that would make that move because of the content. From fan attendance and non-ESPN ratings, I think the true "exposure" for the next AAC TV deal will reveal significant buyer's remorse, especially for the length of its deal and for what the annual payouts will end up being towards the end.

Regarding AAC/BE exposure, none of the BE OOC games were on BEDN or purely on streaming services. An overwhelming majority were still on FS1 and FS2. In that regard, UConn will undoubtedly be able to get more viewership from their move (especially now joining a Northeast/Basketball-focused league).

(09-06-2019 01:03 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Using Alabama/Auburn as "evidence" of viewership not changing is faulty logic. Alabama/Auburn, by itself, is one of the most watched games of the year. There is simply no matchup (with UConn or otherwise) that would be even in the same area code, let alone ballpark, that would be similar for anything from the AAC. If the SEC decided to move all of its content to streaming based services, there would be a significant portion of fans (not all) that would make that move because of the content. From fan attendance and non-ESPN ratings, I think the true "exposure" for the next AAC TV deal will reveal significant buyer's remorse, especially for the length of its deal and for what the annual payouts will end up being towards the end.

Regarding AAC/BE exposure, none of the BE OOC games were on BEDN or purely on streaming services. An overwhelming majority were still on FS1 and FS2. In that regard, UConn will undoubtedly be able to get more viewership from their move (especially now joining a Northeast/Basketball-focused league).

If the SEC decided to move it's package to ESPN Cable only for football- I don't think there would be much of a drop off at all for the ratings.....

Also a lot of the BE OOC games are shown only on FSN- and not FS1/FS2(which a lot of folks only get in SD).

(09-06-2019 01:03 PM)MU in MKE Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 12:44 PM)stever20 Wrote:  lets look from just 2 years ago-
ESPN goes from 1200k to 1199k. Down 1k viewers
Fox goes from 750k to 894k. up 144k viewers
ESPN2 goes from 360k to 330k. down 30k viewers
FS1 goes from 128k to 171k. up 43k viewers

Yes Fox has made up some ground. But it's still considerably behind ESPN. And ESPN to FS1 just is not that clsoe. Instead of it being almost 10 to 1 it's now 7 to 1.

Soooo.... you agree they're making up ground? Here are the full years before the page you linked. The "strong" year for ESPN of 18-19 belies the longer trend.
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Dail...ewers.aspx


Also, what is most important to you, is it ratings or is quality/availability?

For example, the quality broadcast I'm going to get watching Marquette vs Central Arkansas buy game this year (or any buy game on FS1/FSN) on FS1 will be, and I'm just assuming here, far superior to whatever is playing on ESPN2 that day. Even though the ratings will likely be higher on ESPN2.

*edit: you're right, we've gotten away from the flagship network broadcasts vs ESPN. My position on quality still stands though.

I think you are severely underestimating the production on ESPN2. You can't tell the difference. Also like I said- a lot of the OOC buy games aren't on FS1 but they're on either FSN(where you can't get it all the time) or FS2(which for a lot of folks is only in SD).

A lot? Maybe 1 per year per school if that. Xavier has maybe had 1 or 2 games in 6 years that wasn’t available in HD

(09-06-2019 03:12 PM)scoscox Wrote:  A lot? Maybe 1 per year per school if that. Xavier has maybe had 1 or 2 games in 6 years that wasn’t available in HD

maybe for you but just last year Xavier had 2 OOC games on FS2- and no where near everyone gets FS2 in HD.

Big East last year had 16 OOC games on FS2, and 14 OOC games on FSN.

So that’s one to two games per year per school. Maybe 1 not in HD depending on your cable package. Hardly “a lot”. Pretty much lines up with my estimate

(09-06-2019 03:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 03:12 PM)scoscox Wrote:  A lot? Maybe 1 per year per school if that. Xavier has maybe had 1 or 2 games in 6 years that wasn’t available in HD

maybe for you but just last year Xavier had 2 OOC games on FS2- and no where near everyone gets FS2 in HD.

Big East last year had 16 OOC games on FS2, and 14 OOC games on FSN.

Wait, what? Where is FS2 not available in HD?? What kind of garbage carriers do people use?

I guess if that's the case people can use a roku or other streaming device for the Fox SPorts app for that game or two and at least it wouldn't be behind a paywall.

But really... no HD? Time to shop around for a different carrier.

(09-06-2019 03:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 03:12 PM)scoscox Wrote:  A lot? Maybe 1 per year per school if that. Xavier has maybe had 1 or 2 games in 6 years that wasn’t available in HD

maybe for you but just last year Xavier had 2 OOC games on FS2- and no where near everyone gets FS2 in HD.

Big East last year had 16 OOC games on FS2, and 14 OOC games on FSN.

I mean, you may have to buy the sports package, but that's true of many ESPN properties as well.

(09-07-2019 08:40 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 03:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-06-2019 03:12 PM)scoscox Wrote:  A lot? Maybe 1 per year per school if that. Xavier has maybe had 1 or 2 games in 6 years that wasn’t available in HD

maybe for you but just last year Xavier had 2 OOC games on FS2- and no where near everyone gets FS2 in HD.

Big East last year had 16 OOC games on FS2, and 14 OOC games on FSN.

I mean, you may have to buy the sports package, but that's true of many ESPN properties as well.

no, there are a lot of places where FS2 is only available in SD.

Also, FS2 is only available in about 57 million households(as of April this year)- compared to 82 million for FS1. ESPNews and ESPNU available in more households than they are(about 60 million each).