(09-20-2019 12:43 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:39 PM)JMUska Wrote:  Does Schor still have eligibility?

If not, what's the point of comparing him to the best quarterback we have on our team?

Right.....and if we want to talk best JMU QB, sorry Schor ain't that guy either.

(09-23-2019 10:49 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  Schor is definitely one of the greats, but let's not forget about his interceptions. In 2017, he only had three games all year he didn't throw an INT (11/4 URI, 12/2 Stony Brook, and 12/16 South Dakota State). In the national championship game, he threw 2 INTs. 14 total interceptions.
He even threw interceptions versus ETSU and Norfolk State. Imagine if Ben did that.
DiNucci so far has only thrown 1 INT all season, yet he gets talked about like he's been throwing them every game. I understand most of the hate this guy gets is from last season, but this is 2019. It's obvious he wants to win, he loves it here and has been putting in the work to be better and appears to be working so far. He is one of the best QBs in FCS in 2019 and he doesn't deserve the amount of crap he gets from us. If he has another 3+ turnover game I'd say it would be deserved. Until then, lay off the guy and support JMUs QB.

Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

What's Nooch's best win?

(09-23-2019 10:49 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  He is one of the best QBs in FCS in 2019 and he doesn't deserve the amount of crap he gets from us. If he has another 3+ turnover game I'd say it would be deserved. Until then, lay off the guy and support JMUs QB.

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:43 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:39 PM)JMUska Wrote:  Does Schor still have eligibility?

If not, what's the point of comparing him to the best quarterback we have on our team?

Right.....and if we want to talk best JMU QB, sorry Schor ain't that guy either.

(09-23-2019 10:49 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  Schor is definitely one of the greats, but let's not forget about his interceptions. In 2017, he only had three games all year he didn't throw an INT (11/4 URI, 12/2 Stony Brook, and 12/16 South Dakota State). In the national championship game, he threw 2 INTs. 14 total interceptions.
He even threw interceptions versus ETSU and Norfolk State. Imagine if Ben did that.
DiNucci so far has only thrown 1 INT all season, yet he gets talked about like he's been throwing them every game. I understand most of the hate this guy gets is from last season, but this is 2019. It's obvious he wants to win, he loves it here and has been putting in the work to be better and appears to be working so far. He is one of the best QBs in FCS in 2019 and he doesn't deserve the amount of crap he gets from us. If he has another 3+ turnover game I'd say it would be deserved. Until then, lay off the guy and support JMUs QB.

Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

What's Nooch's best win?

All of the wins of one point or more were his best wins. Somewhere around 30 other people can make a QB look good or they can make them look bad.

Me personally, I like the type of QB Brian is more so than Ben. I also think Vad was the worst QB out of the three but I also think he was by far the best athlete of the three. Now put Vad at QB this year, I'm not so sure we would look any better. Stats are great but they only give us about half the story.

(09-23-2019 11:16 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us to two Championships. Only Rascati can compare - he only took us to one. How is this even a conversation? Schor's the goat.

Schor took us in '16, the defense took us in '17

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:43 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:39 PM)JMUska Wrote:  Does Schor still have eligibility?

If not, what's the point of comparing him to the best quarterback we have on our team?

Right.....and if we want to talk best JMU QB, sorry Schor ain't that guy either.

(09-23-2019 10:49 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  Schor is definitely one of the greats, but let's not forget about his interceptions. In 2017, he only had three games all year he didn't throw an INT (11/4 URI, 12/2 Stony Brook, and 12/16 South Dakota State). In the national championship game, he threw 2 INTs. 14 total interceptions.
He even threw interceptions versus ETSU and Norfolk State. Imagine if Ben did that.
DiNucci so far has only thrown 1 INT all season, yet he gets talked about like he's been throwing them every game. I understand most of the hate this guy gets is from last season, but this is 2019. It's obvious he wants to win, he loves it here and has been putting in the work to be better and appears to be working so far. He is one of the best QBs in FCS in 2019 and he doesn't deserve the amount of crap he gets from us. If he has another 3+ turnover game I'd say it would be deserved. Until then, lay off the guy and support JMUs QB.

Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

What's Nooch's best win?

Those 2 INTs vs NDSU in 2017 certainly didn't win us the game, but you don't hear much about those.
I'm not going to say Ben was great last year, because he was incredibly inconsistent. But he did show moments last year (NC State for example) that showed us what kind of QB he was capable of being. He had 2 games that were probably some of the worst QB performances. The problem is that the rest of his career has been completely shadowed by those two games.. perhaps rightfully so. But the guy is not garbage. He will gladly admit his mistakes which should be more of a reason to like the guy.
Last year's team (DiNucci aside) just wasn't as good as 2016/17. Our offensive line last year was terrible, but that gets overshadowed. IMO that's a big reason we weren't as good last year. We had a hard time getting the running game going at times not to mention DiNucci trying to avoid sacks (which let to some pretty nice QB runs).
Putting the entire blame on Ben for last year just isn't fair. Colgate was a dumpster fire, but we still had a chance in that game. Don't forget the Houston drama and there's no wonder we didn't win.

I'm just glad the discussion is now DiNucci vs. Schor and no longer DiNucci vs C. Johnson. I think a reasonable person could argue for DiNucci or Schor but you immediately lose all credibility if arguing DiNucci vs CJ.

Base stats:
Schor: 214 yards/game, 65% completion, 14 INTs, 26 TDs, QB rating 144
Rushing: 21 yards/game, 2.2 yards/rush, 7 TDs
DiNucci: 175 yards/game, 68% completion, 12 INTs, 16 TDs, QB rating 139
Rushing: 33 yards/game, 4.0 yards/rush, 9 TDs

Things to consider:
(1) Both QBs averaged ~0.93 INTs per game (Schor .933 and DiNucci .923). But same metrics presented a different way, Schor threw an INT in 80% of games and DiNucci is only 54%.
(2) Schor played the entire game against ETSU (5 TDs) but DiNucci only played 1 quarter at NSU in the rain (0 TDs). Taking out those games and you have 21 passing TDs for Schor in 14 games and 16 passing TDs for DiNucci in 12 games (1 less rushing TD). Both QBs played same amount of time in the other cupcakes (NSU for Schor, Robert Morris for DiNucci).
(3) Clearly DiNucci had a very bad game to end the season. Schor had his worst game statistically (0 TDs and 2 INTs) in his last game of the season (NDSU). Taking away both QBs last game and Schor has 12 INTs and DiNucci has 7.

Stats adjusted for above cupcakes, worst games, and games played:
Schor (Removed 5 TDs from ETSU, 2 INTs from NDSU and no adjustment to games played)
Passing: 214 yards/game, 65% completion, 12 INTs, 21 TDs,
Rushing: 21 yards/game, 2.2 yards/rush, 7 TDs
Total: 235 yards/game, 28 TDs, 12 INTs, 1.75 passing TD-INT ratio

DiNucci - Removed 1 Rushing TD from NSU, 5 INTs from Colgate and adjusted per game metrics (to 11.5) to account for missing 3 quarters against NSU and UNH.
Passing: 198 yards/game, 68% completion, 7 INTs, 16 TDs
Rushing: 38 yards/game, 4.0 yards/rush, 8 TDs
Total: 236 yards/game, 24 TDs, 7 INTs, 2.28 passing TD-INT ratio

Completely agree that these stats are not real. Completely agree they aren't even fully adjusted as I didn't remove pass and rushing yards from the calculations (just change the game denominator for DiNucci). Completely agree that removing the cupcake negatively impacts Schor more and removing the worst games positively impacts DiNucci more.

(09-23-2019 11:16 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us to two Championships. Only Rascati can compare - he only took us to one. How is this even a conversation? Schor's the goat.

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

And Schor lost the big game, Rascatti didn't. So according to your logic, Rascatti is the GOAT. Rascatti: 100% winning record in NC games tops Schor's 50% winning record in NC games.

According to Dirty's logic, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, etc were all better QBs than Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, etc, because the former group won the big game (a Super Bowl), while the latter never did.

Whether you are a DiNucci fan or not, everyone on here needs to acknowledge the quality of our backup quarterbacks .
Cole Johnson and Gage Maloney are high quality quarterbacks, and either of them can lead this team. If you feel the need to denigrate our Cole or Gage, then your arguments for DiNucci are questionable to me. DiNucci has played well so far, but he played well to this point in the season last year. If DiNucci gets injured, Cole and/or Gage will step in and do a quality job a.k.a. Easton Stick when Carson Wentz was injured.

I personally like all our QB's and their abilities.

(09-23-2019 01:54 PM)AllForDukes Wrote:  Whether you are a DiNucci fan or not, everyone on here needs to acknowledge the quality of our backup quarterbacks .
Cole Johnson and Gage Maloney are high quality quarterbacks, and either of them can lead this team. If you feel the need to denigrate our Cole or Gage, then your arguments for DiNucci are questionable to me. DiNucci has played well so far, but he played well to this point in the season last year. If DiNucci gets injured, Cole and/or Gage will step in and do a quality job a.k.a. Easton Stick when Carson Wentz was injured.

I personally like all our QB's and their abilities.

IMO the reverse is the problem. First, I completely agree that Cole and Gage are quality QBs. The issue I have is that Ben is being labeled a bad QB based on two games and the other two guys would be better than him. I disagree. The coaching staff put Ben in his second QB competition at JMU and came out on top. That's not a knock on Cole or Gage, but a show of confidence in Ben.
Everyone knows (Ben included) that he needs to make good decisions and aside from that one bad INT at WVU he has made pretty good decisions this year.
Ben has made some absolutely terrific throws at times this season. One this past weekend: a beautiful pass to Polk in the perfect spot that should have been a TD but Polk probably lost the ball in the sun.
Lastly, it's not like JMU fans are the only ones saying good things about DiNucci.

(09-23-2019 01:31 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(09-23-2019 11:16 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us to two Championships. Only Rascati can compare - he only took us to one. How is this even a conversation? Schor's the goat.

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

And Schor lost the big game, Rascatti didn't. So according to your logic, Rascatti is the GOAT. Rascatti: 100% winning record in NC games tops Schor's 50% winning record in NC games.

LOL are you serious clark? Bryan played great in the game we lost - it was all the dropped passes and Stapleton's fumble.

Look at games won in the playoffs and Schor has won 4 or 5 more games than Justin.

(09-23-2019 11:16 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us to two Championships. Only Rascati can compare - he only took us to one. How is this even a conversation? Schor's the goat.

So going by your logic:

The conversation for best running back shouldn't include Curtis Keaton or Devlin Joyce since they never won anything.

Gary Clark? Not the best WR, not even in the discussion.

HOF Charles Hayley? That loser couldn't win even a conference title. Hell he lost to Shippensburg St. He clearly wasn't the best.

(09-23-2019 11:52 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:43 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 12:39 PM)JMUska Wrote:  Does Schor still have eligibility?

If not, what's the point of comparing him to the best quarterback we have on our team?

Right.....and if we want to talk best JMU QB, sorry Schor ain't that guy either.

(09-23-2019 10:49 AM)JMad03 Wrote:  Schor is definitely one of the greats, but let's not forget about his interceptions. In 2017, he only had three games all year he didn't throw an INT (11/4 URI, 12/2 Stony Brook, and 12/16 South Dakota State). In the national championship game, he threw 2 INTs. 14 total interceptions.
He even threw interceptions versus ETSU and Norfolk State. Imagine if Ben did that.
DiNucci so far has only thrown 1 INT all season, yet he gets talked about like he's been throwing them every game. I understand most of the hate this guy gets is from last season, but this is 2019. It's obvious he wants to win, he loves it here and has been putting in the work to be better and appears to be working so far. He is one of the best QBs in FCS in 2019 and he doesn't deserve the amount of crap he gets from us. If he has another 3+ turnover game I'd say it would be deserved. Until then, lay off the guy and support JMUs QB.

Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

What's Nooch's best win?

Last year's team (DiNucci aside) just wasn't as good as 2016/17. Our offensive line last year was terrible, but that gets overshadowed.

Bingo! I don't recall Schor ever running for his life like Ben had to do last year. IMO, Ben's performance this year is better because of better protection. There are still breakdowns in pass protection, but not as bad as last year.

Cig, like Houston, is doing the old drop back passer routine with Nooch (not nearly as much, which is a good thing), neutralizing half of his talent, which isn't running for his life. Why the hell are we still running even a single play with Nooch dropping back? To keep the defense honest? You want the defense honest? Let Ben roll, read, and create. Talk about freezing defenders or luring them out of position.

Nooch's protection last year was horrible! Don't take my word for it, check out the UNH game. Unbelievable! Nooch gets pulled after a quarter, like that is going to make the O-line better. The haters cheer. Cole comes in and throws 3 picks and loses a fumble. Who gets the blame for the loss? I don't even have to tell you that. It is in the archives.

So sad was our O-line that we had 37 carries against UNH for 64 yards for a stellar 1.7 ypc (Nooch's fault). Our leading ball carrier was Cardon Johnson, 11 carries for 27 yards (Nooch's fault).

I am so sick of hearing this horsesh!t. Nooch could throw for 100% all season, be 100% in the playoffs and the Natty, throw for 5,000 yards and rush for another 2,000, win the Natty by 80 points, and there will still be people on this board telling us how much he sucks compared to (pick your quarterback). Does Nooch look like a guy your college girlfriend cheated with or something? Where the hell does this hatred come from?

https://www.espn.com/college-football/bo...=401029918

(09-23-2019 03:37 PM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  

(09-23-2019 01:31 PM)BDKJMU Wrote:  

(09-23-2019 11:16 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us to two Championships. Only Rascati can compare - he only took us to one. How is this even a conversation? Schor's the goat.

(09-23-2019 11:17 AM)DirtyDukes Wrote:  Schor took us past the quarters? Who cares if his stats are better but he loses the big game?

And Schor lost the big game, Rascatti didn't. So according to your logic, Rascatti is the GOAT. Rascatti: 100% winning record in NC games tops Schor's 50% winning record in NC games.

LOL are you serious clark? Bryan played great in the game we lost - it was all the dropped passes and Stapleton's fumble.

Look at games won in the playoffs and Schor has won 4 or 5 more games than Justin.

LOL I must just be imagining he threw 2 INTs..

(09-23-2019 05:27 PM)Purple Wrote:  ...
So sad was our O-line that we had 37 carries against UNH for 64 yards for a stellar 1.7 ypc (Nooch's fault).
....
https://www.espn.com/college-football/bo...=401029918

IT WAS NOOCH'S FAULT!!!!!! HE HAD 1 RUSH FOR -17 YARDS!!!! CJ HAD 12 CARRIES FOR 1 YARD WHICH IS LIKE INFINITY TIMES BETTER CAUSE YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO GO FORWARD!!!! WAIT!!! HARRY HAD 7 YARDS ON 1 CARRY, HE NEEDS TO BE STARTING QB, HE IS THE BEST!!!!

Oh, sorry, my caps lock and sarcasm was turned on.

No one is saying Ben is a bad QB, he's got lots of talent and does a number of things very well. Overall he's a good D1AA level QB, against the right opponent his running ability alone is enough to slice up defenses. But there are a few things that continue to need some work if he's going to keep us from losing big games, let alone winning big games. Decision-making being my biggest concern, but so far he looks improved this season. We'll see as the season progresses.

I'm not taking sides as far as any QB, if the staff feels he's our best option then he's our best option. But in blindly defending him some of y'all are skewing things a bit. Yes, he can be very accurate but most of those are short/intermediate passes. It's not that he doesn't have the arm for deep throws- he hit Polk on a nice one against Morgan State. In some cases it's more of a timing or "read" issue, like the ball to Polk was a little under-thrown but Polk is fast as h3ll.

He also sometimes seems to have tunnel vision and not see some of the zone DBs, which a few times led to near interceptions. True, they didn't end up interceptions but it's enough to make me wince.

YPPA can be misleading. Many of Ben's passes are screens, hitches, outs, etc that get a bunch of yards after catch added to them. Not saying he can't throw the long ball, but many of those long ones (like Polk's 48 yard and Hamilton's 50 yard TDs) are extended short passes. I'd be interested to see stats on Ben's throws of 20+ yards (vertical air distance) before placing credence in stats supporting his ability to throw long. Might be better than I think, and if so that's great.

This whole argument, like most board banter, follows the same pattern most of our arguments take. One side makes a statement to one extreme, and the other side comes in with another extreme. The reality (in my opinion) is right now Ben is 90% of what we need at the position to dominate and win a title. Maybe it's not necessary for him to improve anymore for us to win, but until I see it I'm going to cringe every time I see him wind up to go deeper than 10 yards. I also cringe a little when I see him running like he's holding a loaf of bread, but I have tons of confidence with his running ability.

We're all in your corner Ben.

(09-23-2019 07:57 PM)2Buck Wrote:  No one is saying Ben is a bad QB, he's got lots of talent and does a number of things very well. Overall he's a good D1AA level QB, against the right opponent his running ability alone is enough to slice up defenses. But there are a few things that continue to need some work if he's going to keep us from losing big games, let alone winning big games. Decision-making being my biggest concern, but so far he looks improved this season. We'll see as the season progresses.

I'm not taking sides as far as any QB, if the staff feels he's our best option then he's our best option. But in blindly defending him some of y'all are skewing things a bit. Yes, he can be very accurate but most of those are short/intermediate passes. It's not that he doesn't have the arm for deep throws- he hit Polk on a nice one against Morgan State. In some cases it's more of a timing or "read" issue, like the ball to Polk was a little under-thrown but Polk is fast as h3ll.

He also sometimes seems to have tunnel vision and not see some of the zone DBs, which a few times led to near interceptions. True, they didn't end up interceptions but it's enough to make me wince.

YPPA can be misleading. Many of Ben's passes are screens, hitches, outs, etc that get a bunch of yards after catch added to them. Not saying he can't throw the long ball, but many of those long ones (like Polk's 48 yard and Hamilton's 50 yard TDs) are extended short passes. I'd be interested to see stats on Ben's throws of 20+ yards (vertical air distance) before placing credence in stats supporting his ability to throw long. Might be better than I think, and if so that's great.

This whole argument, like most board banter, follows the same pattern most of our arguments take. One side makes a statement to one extreme, and the other side comes in with another extreme. The reality (in my opinion) is right now Ben is 90% of what we need at the position to dominate and win a title. Maybe it's not necessary for him to improve anymore for us to win, but until I see it I'm going to cringe every time I see him wind up to go deeper than 10 yards. I also cringe a little when I see him running like he's holding a loaf of bread, but I have tons of confidence with his running ability.

We're all in your corner Ben.

Translation: You can't throw the long ball, anyone can throw short passes, your decisionmaking doesn't suck as bad as it used to, I cringe when you throw, I cringe when you run. But, I'm in your corner, Ben.

LMAO!

The bashing makes me think of breaking up with a smoking hot girl because she got a pimple once. I really think some people have become so spoiled it’s silly whether it’s complaining about the perceived limitations of an elite level FCS QB, not going to a home game because we’re going to win in a blowout, the constant look to making the FBS leap by pointing out the 1 somewhat successful story out of about 2 dozen or picking apart the coaching. I don’t care if your scheduling the defending NFL champions, that 1/3 of the pollsters would take a home game over a national championship is absurd.

People, you have a good thing here, appreciate it and fully embrace it. If this guy isn’t who you want leading the current #2 team in the country, who you do want must be doing it for a top 20 FBS program, and he ain’t coming through that door anytime soon. You shouldn’t have to struggle through watching some bad QBs or 2-10 seasons to realize what you have. JMU is in a good place, enjoy the ride.

I guess the issue is some things still haven't changed, the only difference now is Coach Cignetti addresses it. I read an article yesterday, which I could swear Madia wrote but I can't find the link anywhere now, where Cignetti basically said Dinucci got away with a bad read on the TD to Polk. Based on the blitz package and secondary, Ben made a throw that should have been a pick 6. Per Cignetti, the DB made a bad read/play on the ball and it turned into a TD for Polk that made the score 30-14. When you're playing a playoff caliber team and they take that ball to the house the other way, you're now in a 23-21 ballgame and everyone on here is blaming Dinucci. There's a real fine line between great QBs and good QBs, there all athletic or they wouldn't be playing for us. As a R-Sr, I expect our QB to make the correct read and that's where Schor (and Rascatti, and Landers) separated themselves. I just hope he fixes those types of split-second decisions, before they cost us a big game (again).

This problem is also where our lack of creativity and production in the red zone comes back to haunt us. The score at that point should have already been 31-14, at least 2 of those 3 FG drives should have produced TDs. Throw the pick 6 up 17 in the 3rd quarter and it sucks, throw it up 23-14 and suddenly the air goes out of the sideline and you find yourself in trouble. That's not necessarily on Ben, but our play-calling in the red zone does make me question how much they trust his decisions in a compressed field.

Edit** Found it......http://www.dnronline.com/sports/college/field-notes-jmu-got-away-with-one-to-beat-mocs/article_04d6a4aa-5025-56d0-b162-4ba9e4186891.html

(09-24-2019 04:43 AM)JMUSteeler Wrote:  I guess the issue is some things still haven't changed, the only difference now is Coach Cignetti addresses it. I read an article yesterday, which I could swear Madia wrote but I can't find the link anywhere now, where Cignetti basically said Dinucci got away with a bad read on the TD to Polk. Based on the blitz package and secondary, Ben made a throw that should have been a pick 6. Per Cignetti, the DB made a bad read/play on the ball and it turned into a TD for Polk that made the score 30-14. When you're playing a playoff caliber team and they take that ball to the house the other way, you're now in a 23-21 ballgame and everyone on here is blaming Dinucci. There's a real fine line between great QBs and good QBs, there all athletic or they wouldn't be playing for us. As a R-Sr, I expect our QB to make the correct read and that's where Schor (and Rascatti, and Landers) separated themselves. I just hope he fixes those types of split-second decisions, before they cost us a big game (again).

This problem is also where our lack of creativity and production in the red zone comes back to haunt us. The score at that point should have already been 31-14, at least 2 of those 3 FG drives should have produced TDs. Throw the pick 6 up 17 in the 3rd quarter and it sucks, throw it up 23-14 and suddenly the air goes out of the sideline and you find yourself in trouble. That's not necessarily on Ben, but our play-calling in the red zone does make me question how much they trust his decisions in a compressed field.

Edit** Found it......http://www.dnronline.com/sports/college/field-notes-jmu-got-away-with-one-to-beat-mocs/article_04d6a4aa-5025-56d0-b162-4ba9e4186891.html

Right because schor and rascatti and landers never made the wrong read? There is absolutely nothing that backs up you saying a playoff caliber team takes that the other way to the house. That's part of the game of football. We lucked out on that one and I'm sure there will be plays that go against us. Bottom line is Ben admitted he made the wrong read so now he can learn from it and move on

By the way, not sure schor throwing up 50/50 balls and our receivers coming down with them the majority of the time can be considered the right read but it worked out so no one complained