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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1
Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/
08-29-2019 02:06 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-29-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/

Quote:
Bloomberg: Lack of Wind Causes Texas Electricity Prices to Skyrocket 40,000%
Written by Isaac Orr in Energy, Environment on August 29, 2019 Print
You know its bad when Bloomberg, which almost always treats renewables with kid gloves, comes out with a piece that is one of the most devastating critiques of the unreliable nature of wind and solar that I have ever seen, but that is exactly what happened recently.

The article, published on August 26th, details how Texas, which has more wind turbines than any other state, is suffering the consequences of building so much wind power:

“The road to a world powered by renewable energy is littered with unintended consequences. Like a 40,000% surge in electricity prices.

Texas power prices jumped from less than $15 to as much as $9,000 a megawatt-hour this month as coal plant retirements and weak winds left the region on the brink of blackouts during a heat wave. It’s a phenomenon playing out worldwide. Germany averted three blackouts of its own in June and has seen prices both spike and plunge below zero within days as it swaps out coal and nuclear energy for wind and solar. In the U.K., more than a million homes lost power on Aug. 9, in part because a wind farm tripped offline.”


The skyrocketing price of power and narrowly-averted blackouts should act as a warning shot to other states and nation’s around the world: shutting down, affordable, reliable, and most importantly dispatchable electricity generators like coal, natural gas, and nuclear, to replace them with intermittent, and therefore unreliable, wind and solar is a very bad idea.

Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?
08-29-2019 02:23 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
One interesting part of the Yang climate plan is to invest in thorium nuclear plants (something India and China are doing already).

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technol...ear-power/
08-29-2019 02:44 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
Chuck DeVore: Texas town's renewable energy experiment failure proves Green New Deal unworkable

https://www.foxnews.com/media/chuck-devo...unworkable

Not ready for prime time alternative energy?
08-29-2019 10:15 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-29-2019 10:15 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Chuck DeVore: Texas town's renewable energy experiment failure proves Green New Deal unworkable

https://www.foxnews.com/media/chuck-devo...unworkable

Not ready for prime time alternative energy?

Not a very informative article. The Statesman provided a lot more detail - in short, energy prices fell below the fixed rate the town agreed to when it signed the contract.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statesm...e%3Dampart
08-30-2019 06:24 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
Climate change is real, but it is not the main problem, ultimately. Unchecked population growth is. Nobody is doing anything it and nobody wants to.

Spending all this effort on climate change, 'nee global warming, is like spreading weed killer in the yard while termites are eating the house.
08-30-2019 08:40 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 08:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Climate change is real, but it is not the main problem, ultimately. Unchecked population growth is. Nobody is doing anything it and nobody wants to.

Spending all this effort on climate change, 'nee global warming, is like spreading weed killer in the yard while termites are eating the house.

Is it really true that no one is doing anything about unchecked population growth?

We see developed countries that have a below-replacement level birthrate (see Germany and most of Europe) and there are efforts to combat poverty and educate women in underdeveloped countries, both of which generally significantly lower birthrates.
08-30-2019 08:47 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 08:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Climate change is real, but it is not the main problem, ultimately. Unchecked population growth is. Nobody is doing anything it and nobody wants to.

Spending all this effort on climate change, 'nee global warming, is like spreading weed killer in the yard while termites are eating the house.

Is it really true that no one is doing anything about unchecked population growth?

We see developed countries that have a below-replacement level birthrate (see Germany and most of Europe) and there are efforts to combat poverty and educate women in underdeveloped countries, both of which generally significantly lower birthrates.

Oh, good, problem solved.
08-30-2019 08:49 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 08:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Climate change is real, but it is not the main problem, ultimately. Unchecked population growth is. Nobody is doing anything it and nobody wants to.

Spending all this effort on climate change, 'nee global warming, is like spreading weed killer in the yard while termites are eating the house.

Is it really true that no one is doing anything about unchecked population growth?

We see developed countries that have a below-replacement level birthrate (see Germany and most of Europe) and there are efforts to combat poverty and educate women in underdeveloped countries, both of which generally significantly lower birthrates.

Oh, good, problem solved.

You say we aren't doing anything.

I ask you if that is true, and point out some signs that indicate some countries have below replacement level birthrates and there are groups focused on helping developing countries (where birthrates are higher) in ways that decrease birth rates.

You respond with sarcasm.

So, again, are we really not doing something as you posit?
08-30-2019 08:55 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 08:55 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:47 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 08:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Climate change is real, but it is not the main problem, ultimately. Unchecked population growth is. Nobody is doing anything it and nobody wants to.

Spending all this effort on climate change, 'nee global warming, is like spreading weed killer in the yard while termites are eating the house.

Is it really true that no one is doing anything about unchecked population growth?

We see developed countries that have a below-replacement level birthrate (see Germany and most of Europe) and there are efforts to combat poverty and educate women in underdeveloped countries, both of which generally significantly lower birthrates.

Oh, good, problem solved.

You say we aren't doing anything.

I ask you if that is true, and point out some signs that indicate some countries have below replacement level birthrates and there are groups focused on helping developing countries (where birthrates are higher) in ways that decrease birth rates.

You respond with sarcasm.

So, again, are we really not doing something as you posit?

Who is doing those things and why? Is germany on a campaign to limit population growth, like China One child policy, or is it just happening?

Are the campaigns in the underdeveloped countries designed to limit population growth, or is that (if it is happening) just a side effect?

Point me to a campaign that has as its primary target population control.

The world's population continues to grow, but the means of feeding and taking care of them do not keep up. Maybe if Greenland thaws we will have millions of acres of arable land. But if we successfully keep it under ice, maybe not.

The climate people have outlined a problem, that even if solved, will just make the car more comfortable as it hurtles over the cliff.

It's not that it is not a problem, it is that it is not THE problem.

And in any case, there is no workable program to return the climate to the way it was in 1735, or whatever the target is. Because, among other things, the population of the world is not what it was in 1735, or 897, or 10,000 BC, or whatever the target is.

I am leaving the house in a few minutes, and will not return probably until late. Maybe we can continue this later tonight or tomorrow.

Go Owls!
08-30-2019 09:08 AM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-29-2019 02:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/

Quote:
Bloomberg: Lack of Wind Causes Texas Electricity Prices to Skyrocket 40,000%
Written by Isaac Orr in Energy, Environment on August 29, 2019 Print
You know its bad when Bloomberg, which almost always treats renewables with kid gloves, comes out with a piece that is one of the most devastating critiques of the unreliable nature of wind and solar that I have ever seen, but that is exactly what happened recently.

The article, published on August 26th, details how Texas, which has more wind turbines than any other state, is suffering the consequences of building so much wind power:

“The road to a world powered by renewable energy is littered with unintended consequences. Like a 40,000% surge in electricity prices.

Texas power prices jumped from less than $15 to as much as $9,000 a megawatt-hour this month as coal plant retirements and weak winds left the region on the brink of blackouts during a heat wave. It’s a phenomenon playing out worldwide. Germany averted three blackouts of its own in June and has seen prices both spike and plunge below zero within days as it swaps out coal and nuclear energy for wind and solar. In the U.K., more than a million homes lost power on Aug. 9, in part because a wind farm tripped offline.”


The skyrocketing price of power and narrowly-averted blackouts should act as a warning shot to other states and nation’s around the world: shutting down, affordable, reliable, and most importantly dispatchable electricity generators like coal, natural gas, and nuclear, to replace them with intermittent, and therefore unreliable, wind and solar is a very bad idea.

Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?

Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/
08-30-2019 10:33 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/

Quote:
Bloomberg: Lack of Wind Causes Texas Electricity Prices to Skyrocket 40,000%
Written by Isaac Orr in Energy, Environment on August 29, 2019 Print
You know its bad when Bloomberg, which almost always treats renewables with kid gloves, comes out with a piece that is one of the most devastating critiques of the unreliable nature of wind and solar that I have ever seen, but that is exactly what happened recently.

The article, published on August 26th, details how Texas, which has more wind turbines than any other state, is suffering the consequences of building so much wind power:

“The road to a world powered by renewable energy is littered with unintended consequences. Like a 40,000% surge in electricity prices.

Texas power prices jumped from less than $15 to as much as $9,000 a megawatt-hour this month as coal plant retirements and weak winds left the region on the brink of blackouts during a heat wave. It’s a phenomenon playing out worldwide. Germany averted three blackouts of its own in June and has seen prices both spike and plunge below zero within days as it swaps out coal and nuclear energy for wind and solar. In the U.K., more than a million homes lost power on Aug. 9, in part because a wind farm tripped offline.”


The skyrocketing price of power and narrowly-averted blackouts should act as a warning shot to other states and nation’s around the world: shutting down, affordable, reliable, and most importantly dispatchable electricity generators like coal, natural gas, and nuclear, to replace them with intermittent, and therefore unreliable, wind and solar is a very bad idea.

Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?

Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/

I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.
08-30-2019 12:16 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/

Quote:
Bloomberg: Lack of Wind Causes Texas Electricity Prices to Skyrocket 40,000%
Written by Isaac Orr in Energy, Environment on August 29, 2019 Print
You know its bad when Bloomberg, which almost always treats renewables with kid gloves, comes out with a piece that is one of the most devastating critiques of the unreliable nature of wind and solar that I have ever seen, but that is exactly what happened recently.

The article, published on August 26th, details how Texas, which has more wind turbines than any other state, is suffering the consequences of building so much wind power:

“The road to a world powered by renewable energy is littered with unintended consequences. Like a 40,000% surge in electricity prices.

Texas power prices jumped from less than $15 to as much as $9,000 a megawatt-hour this month as coal plant retirements and weak winds left the region on the brink of blackouts during a heat wave. It’s a phenomenon playing out worldwide. Germany averted three blackouts of its own in June and has seen prices both spike and plunge below zero within days as it swaps out coal and nuclear energy for wind and solar. In the U.K., more than a million homes lost power on Aug. 9, in part because a wind farm tripped offline.”


The skyrocketing price of power and narrowly-averted blackouts should act as a warning shot to other states and nation’s around the world: shutting down, affordable, reliable, and most importantly dispatchable electricity generators like coal, natural gas, and nuclear, to replace them with intermittent, and therefore unreliable, wind and solar is a very bad idea.

Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?

Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/

I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.

Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.
08-30-2019 12:22 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:22 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:06 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I have forgotten which thread carried the latest gnashings about wind power --- so here is a thread dedicated expressly to that subject.

Now, here is an interesting piece on wind power and Texas
https://www.americanexperiment.org/2019/...ket-40000/

Quote:
Bloomberg: Lack of Wind Causes Texas Electricity Prices to Skyrocket 40,000%
Written by Isaac Orr in Energy, Environment on August 29, 2019 Print
You know its bad when Bloomberg, which almost always treats renewables with kid gloves, comes out with a piece that is one of the most devastating critiques of the unreliable nature of wind and solar that I have ever seen, but that is exactly what happened recently.

The article, published on August 26th, details how Texas, which has more wind turbines than any other state, is suffering the consequences of building so much wind power:

“The road to a world powered by renewable energy is littered with unintended consequences. Like a 40,000% surge in electricity prices.

Texas power prices jumped from less than $15 to as much as $9,000 a megawatt-hour this month as coal plant retirements and weak winds left the region on the brink of blackouts during a heat wave. It’s a phenomenon playing out worldwide. Germany averted three blackouts of its own in June and has seen prices both spike and plunge below zero within days as it swaps out coal and nuclear energy for wind and solar. In the U.K., more than a million homes lost power on Aug. 9, in part because a wind farm tripped offline.”


The skyrocketing price of power and narrowly-averted blackouts should act as a warning shot to other states and nation’s around the world: shutting down, affordable, reliable, and most importantly dispatchable electricity generators like coal, natural gas, and nuclear, to replace them with intermittent, and therefore unreliable, wind and solar is a very bad idea.

Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?

Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/

I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.

Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.

Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market
08-30-2019 12:33 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:22 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-29-2019 02:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Texas is shutting down coal, natural gas, and nuclear power plants?

Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/

I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.

Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.

Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market

Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse, and it's as tiresome as ever.
08-30-2019 12:49 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:49 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:22 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 10:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Coal yes. Nuclear and natural gas, no.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ener...surprised/

I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.

Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.

Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market

Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse, and it's as tiresome as ever.

I am very confused - how am I being obtuse? I called the Texas electric market unregulated, and you said it isn't unregulated...

Legitimately confused here.
08-30-2019 12:51 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:49 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:22 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I was more asking if the state government of Texas was making those moves, or pushing for them, as opposed to the unregulated market.

Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.

Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market

Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse, and it's as tiresome as ever.

I am very confused - how am I being obtuse? I called the Texas electric market unregulated, and you said it isn't unregulated...

Legitimately confused here.

ERCOT
PUC

Sorry, but I assumed you knew that deregulation does not leave a market unregulated.
08-30-2019 12:56 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 12:56 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:49 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:22 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Neither. The market isn't unregulated, and the power industry isn't state run.

Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market

Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse, and it's as tiresome as ever.

I am very confused - how am I being obtuse? I called the Texas electric market unregulated, and you said it isn't unregulated...

Legitimately confused here.

ERCOT
PUC

Sorry, but I assumed you knew that deregulation does not leave a market unregulated.

Ah, I see. The issue was that I accidentally used "unregulated" instead of "deregulated." Didn't mean to imply that there was absolutely no regulation of the electricity market in Texas. My b.

My point, was that the state of Texas isn't making decisions about what plants open or close. Or what type of power generation is used. Market forces drive all of that because of the deregulated market (used the right term this time). So when we see articles about how Texas is doing something, it gives me pause, because Texas (the state) isn't directly driving our energy production decisions, right?
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2019 01:02 PM by RiceLad15.)
08-30-2019 01:02 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 01:02 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:56 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:49 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-30-2019 12:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Deregulation of Texas Electricity Market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulati...ity_market

Once again, you are being deliberately obtuse, and it's as tiresome as ever.

I am very confused - how am I being obtuse? I called the Texas electric market unregulated, and you said it isn't unregulated...

Legitimately confused here.

ERCOT
PUC

Sorry, but I assumed you knew that deregulation does not leave a market unregulated.

Ah, I see. The issue was that I accidentally used "unregulated" instead of "deregulated." Didn't mean to imply that there was absolutely no regulation of the electricity market in Texas. My b.

My point, was that the state of Texas isn't making decisions about what plants open or close. Or what type of power generation is used. Market forces drive all of that because of the deregulated market (used the right term this time). So when we see articles about how Texas is doing something, it gives me pause, because Texas (the state) isn't directly driving our energy production decisions, right?

Getting out the way is often the most positive driver of all -- far more so than most people realize, or than many people can admit.
08-30-2019 03:01 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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RE: Climate Change, Alternative Energy, and the like
(08-30-2019 09:08 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The world's population continues to grow, but the means of feeding and taking care of them do not keep up.

Is that really true? Through most of human history, and especially the 20th and 21st centuries, food production and distribution capacity has more than kept pace with population. As a result, the only places today in which food shortages occur for anything other than the briefest of moments are those plagued either by (1) corruption or (2) artificial price suppression (which arguably is another form of corruption).
08-30-2019 03:07 PM
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