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Fort Bend Owl Online
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59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?
08-20-2019 03:20 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #2
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.
08-20-2019 03:27 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #3
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
College is in no way, shape, or form, a net negative for America. I think the conversation that we should have (and are mostly having here) is whether or not college is the right decision for most people.

My generation grew up being told by our parents (Boomers and Gen Xers) that college was a requirement and that it was the key to getting ahead in life. And while data still suggests that getting a college degree is best for a rewarding career, the narrative we were told overlooked that bad college degrees are not worth debt, and that there are many rewarding careers that can bring financial well-being that don't require college, but do require some kind of training.
08-20-2019 03:28 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Online
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RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.
08-20-2019 03:32 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

To one of the bolded points - ironically, some of the people best equipped to enter the work place are those with humanity degrees like history. Those students are really well versed in writing and critical thinking, when compared to engineering students (like myself). A significant portion of my engineering job is communicating data and results, and I did not write nearly enough papers in my engineering courses at Rice to prepare me for that fact.

I doubt that those are the skills either political party is talking about, because both love to bash humanities majors.
08-20-2019 03:36 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #6
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

Rice doesn't hand out very many useless degrees for two reasons: it's a small university that does not have the students or staff for myriad degree programs, and its admissions are selective enough that it doesn't have to offer an easy path for students who really don't have what it takes to finish a real degree. The closest Rice comes is area studies type degrees, and some of the continuing education degrees for people that have time and money enough to study for the fun of it.
08-20-2019 03:45 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I am a conservative who has come to the conclusion that a college degree is overhyped and often useless. Way too many young people are graduating with degrees that are of little use in finding and keeping employment, and those degrees come with a mountain of debt.

When I talk to young people, I tell them that no matter what they major in, minor in business, and be sure to take some accounting courses.

When I graduated from HS, only 1 in 6 Americans went to college. Most people stopped school after the 8th grade in my dad's day. Now half the people you meet have degrees, and half of those degrees are useless. Pretty soon a college degree will have the same weight as an 8th grade diploma did in 1930.

As for the liberalism prevalent in many schools, I can only offer the following:

Those can, do, and those that cannot, teach.

Rice is not outstandingly good or bad on the political scale.

But in my personal interview for Rice, the Dean asked me this question:

Does education have an intrinsic value?

I had to ask what intrinsic meant, but then I answered affirmatively. I still do.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2019 06:02 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
08-20-2019 06:01 PM
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InterestedX Offline
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Post: #8
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 06:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  As for the liberalism prevalent in many schools, I can only offer the following:

Those can, do, and those that cannot, teach.

That saying infuriates me. Absolute rubbish, and an insult to the many generations of fine teachers who have made this nation what it is.
08-20-2019 06:37 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #9
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 06:37 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  As for the liberalism prevalent in many schools, I can only offer the following:

Those can, do, and those that cannot, teach.

That saying infuriates me. Absolute rubbish, and an insult to the many generations of fine teachers who have made this nation what it is.

Especially in academia, where professors are basically running small businesses. Professors must find their own funding sources, hire grad students and support staff, manage labs/research groups, network with other academics, produce research, and on top of all that, teach.
08-20-2019 08:14 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 08:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:37 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  As for the liberalism prevalent in many schools, I can only offer the following:
Those can, do, and those that cannot, teach.
That saying infuriates me. Absolute rubbish, and an insult to the many generations of fine teachers who have made this nation what it is.
Especially in academia, where professors are basically running small businesses. Professors must find their own funding sources, hire grad students and support staff, manage labs/research groups, network with other academics, produce research, and on top of all that, teach.

As one who works in academia, it is not universally true, but it is true far more often than it should be.
08-21-2019 01:00 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I thought about just letting this brush fire die down.

But here I am.

I have no problem with professional teachers. My father's side of the family was teacher-heavy. Grandmother, aunt, cousins. My son was a teacher. I admire their dedication and think their efforts are worthwhile. Policeman, fireman, teacher.
All admiration worthy.

But is an engineering professor (for example) a teacher, or an engineer? We have lots of buildings all over campus with the names of professional engineers on them. AFAIK, none with the names of engineering professors.

But I also rely somewhat on personal experience. Over 50 years ago, I was a young liberal searching for an occupation where I would not be exploiting workers for personal gain. Academia beckoned. Had I found a path into academia, I may well have ended up as one of those Marxist professors that Obama was so proud of hanging with.

Clearly, my life path went in other directions. But I remember my thoughts and attitudes then, and had I gotten into academia, they probably would be much the same today. I assume that many people on University payrolls would be like me.
08-21-2019 10:08 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #12
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-21-2019 10:08 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I thought about just letting this brush fire die down.

But here I am.

I have no problem with professional teachers. My father's side of the family was teacher-heavy. Grandmother, aunt, cousins. My son was a teacher. I admire their dedication and think their efforts are worthwhile. Policeman, fireman, teacher.
All admiration worthy.

But is an engineering professor (for example) a teacher, or an engineer?
We have lots of buildings all over campus with the names of professional engineers on them. AFAIK, none with the names of engineering professors.

But I also rely somewhat on personal experience. Over 50 years ago, I was a young liberal searching for an occupation where I would not be exploiting workers for personal gain. Academia beckoned. Had I found a path into academia, I may well have ended up as one of those Marxist professors that Obama was so proud of hanging with.

Clearly, my life path went in other directions. But I remember my thoughts and attitudes then, and had I gotten into academia, they probably would be much the same today. I assume that many people on University payrolls would be like me.

Many have their PE, so that would technically make them a professional engineer. Plus, depending on what engineering field they work in, they have a consulting business on the side where they conduct work or serve as an expert witness for litigation. Just because you don't start an incredibly successful business that generates enormous profits (that you can use to fund capital projects) doesn't mean you are any more or less an engineer.

Heck, we don't have a building named after Richard Smalley, but he won the Nobel Prize.
08-21-2019 10:44 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-21-2019 10:44 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-21-2019 10:08 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I thought about just letting this brush fire die down.

But here I am.

I have no problem with professional teachers. My father's side of the family was teacher-heavy. Grandmother, aunt, cousins. My son was a teacher. I admire their dedication and think their efforts are worthwhile. Policeman, fireman, teacher.
All admiration worthy.

But is an engineering professor (for example) a teacher, or an engineer?
We have lots of buildings all over campus with the names of professional engineers on them. AFAIK, none with the names of engineering professors.

But I also rely somewhat on personal experience. Over 50 years ago, I was a young liberal searching for an occupation where I would not be exploiting workers for personal gain. Academia beckoned. Had I found a path into academia, I may well have ended up as one of those Marxist professors that Obama was so proud of hanging with.

Clearly, my life path went in other directions. But I remember my thoughts and attitudes then, and had I gotten into academia, they probably would be much the same today. I assume that many people on University payrolls would be like me.

Many have their PE, so that would technically make them a professional engineer. Plus, depending on what engineering field they work in, they have a consulting business on the side where they conduct work or serve as an expert witness for litigation. Just because you don't start an incredibly successful business that generates enormous profits (that you can use to fund capital projects) doesn't mean you are any more or less an engineer.

Heck, we don't have a building named after Richard Smalley, but he won the Nobel Prize.

Same for Mother Teresa.

Point was, some choose to enter the arena, some do not.
08-21-2019 10:52 AM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #14
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:45 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.
08-26-2019 11:11 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 11:11 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:45 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:20 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  https://reason.com/2019/08/19/pew-survey...fe-spaces/

Only half of all Americans now have a positive view of colleges and universities, according to a new survey from Pew Research. The number of people who take a negative view has increased from 26 percent in 2012 to 38 percent in 2019.

The change largely reflects a growing dissatisfaction on the right with the culture of college campuses. The percentage of Republicans who see value in higher education has collapsed in recent years, from 53 percent in 2012 to just 23 percent in 2019.

According to Pew:

Roughly eight-in-ten Republicans (79%) say professors bringing their political and social views into the classroom is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (only 17% of Democrats say the same). And three-quarters of Republicans (vs. 31% of Democrats) point to too much concern about protecting students from views they might find offensive as a major reason for their views. In addition, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say students not getting the skills they need to succeed in the workplace is a major reason why the higher education system is headed in the wrong direction (73% vs. 56%).

Democrats who take a negative view of higher ed are most likely to cite rising costs as the issue.

I'm curious if any of the conservatives folks here put themselves in that classification. Or even if you do, would you say Rice University is bad for America?

Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.

What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?
08-26-2019 11:36 AM
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Post: #16
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:11 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:45 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:27 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Let's employ some of those critical thinking skills we learned at Rice, shall we? Try commenting on the bolded context instead of the clickbait headline, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.

What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2019 11:48 AM by tanqtonic.)
08-26-2019 11:46 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #17
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 11:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:11 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:45 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:32 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  From the get go, that article explained why Republicans think college is bad for America. It most certainly was not click bait. I'm just curious if you think that culture exists at Rice as well.

Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.

What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.

To the bold - I was asking for clarification about Illini's points given that I didn't feel like I experienced those issues as Rice. I thought the question marks would give that away...

I agree that academics as a whole are left of center, but I don't have the intimate knowledge of how classes are being taught to say whether or not I feel like there is an obvious bias that comes through in their teaching. Plenty of people put away their bias on a daily basis, so it would be good if we could talk about specifics as opposed to these rather fluffy examples that don't do a good job of actually defining the issue that is trying to be discussed.

And like you said, Evergreen is an outlier - would we see a similar issue if we look at Liberty? I've not watched the video to know what exactly they discuss there, but I assume it would apply to a school that is almost certainly attended by rather conservative students.
08-26-2019 11:59 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #18
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 11:59 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:11 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 03:45 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Rice is far from the worst example out there. From what I hear, thought policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is more prevalent than when I attended, but not as extreme as at universities that make the news.

I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.

What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.

To the bold - I was asking for clarification about Illini's points given that I didn't feel like I experienced those issues as Rice. I thought the question marks would give that away...

And Illini quite explicitly agreed with the statement that he felt that "policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is .... not as extreme as at universities that make the news." Doesnt seem to warrant a clarification as it seems in line with your more recent than ours experience.

Quote:I agree that academics as a whole are left of center, but I don't have the intimate knowledge of how classes are being taught to say whether or not I feel like there is an obvious bias that comes through in their teaching. Plenty of people put away their bias on a daily basis, so it would be good if we could talk about specifics as opposed to these rather fluffy examples that don't do a good job of actually defining the issue that is trying to be discussed.

I suggest you open up the T-Sip social science class offerings then. The examples therein are quite replete with that. Not really rocket science to use that as a ggod exemplar.

Quote:And like you said, Evergreen is an outlier - would we see a similar issue if we look at Liberty? I've not watched the video to know what exactly they discuss there, but I assume it would apply to a school that is almost certainly attended by rather conservative students.

Yes Liberty is undoubtedly conservative, just as Claremont is libertarian or conservative. Neither gives the short shrift that many (most) institutions give re: squashing outside voices that the administration or main student body might disagree with. Nor do those institutions give the perverse incentive to remove teachers that Evergreen demonstrated just a short while ago.

In fact, with Claremont in particular, you see an unvarnished zeal to actually present 'out of their line' speakers, teachers, and the massive amount of attention outgoing to invite contra-position thought holders to opine in their pretty widespread (at least in the libertarian world) publications like the Claremont Review of Books.

When you see a bunch of Liberty students and/or faculty with the complicit help of administrations trying to stop the liberal version of Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro from speaking on campus, why dont you tell us when that happens.

Or perhaps when you find out the conservative school going out of their way to deny a liberal version of the YAF a school club accreditation, along with the snide emails from college admins (as happened in the last two years at University of Kentucky and those emails being revealed under only under subpoena two weeks ago), then again, please feel free to make that equivalence.

I might be living in a cloistered world. But when you opine or ask that such an equivalence be extended to the Liberty Universitys or the Claremonts of this country, it might behoove you to have actual arguable issues that have recently occurred like those are readily visible in the contra-direction. As opposed to making 'perhaps' type statements.
08-26-2019 12:41 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #19
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 12:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:59 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:11 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  I would agree with this but I do have friends who have stopped donating to Rice over this issue, including some who are hearing about it from their kids currently on campus.

I don't think "college is bad for America" but of course I think liberal indoctrination is bad for America and I don't think it can be seriously argued that that is not what is being attempted in American colleges, either actively or passively. Faculties and admins are overwhelmingly left of center and for folks ostensibly interested in seeking and promoting truth they are strangely unwilling to allow other viewpoints to be heard.

Heck, thoughtful liberals should recognize that liberal indoctrination really isn't even good for liberalism, as ideas benefit from being sharpened in response to opposing ideas, and can become sclerotic when unchallenged. I also think, frankly, that liberal overreach is basically why Trump is president, which liberals certainly believe is bad for America and in fact, as a conservative, I would agree. Maybe better than the alternative in the short term, but in the long term, this buffoon is going to poison the landscape against conservative ideas for a generation. You do not promote ideas through an idea-less man.

What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.

To the bold - I was asking for clarification about Illini's points given that I didn't feel like I experienced those issues as Rice. I thought the question marks would give that away...

And Illini quite explicitly agreed with the statement that he felt that "policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is .... not as extreme as at universities that make the news." Doesnt seem to warrant a clarification as it seems in line with your more recent than ours experience.

Quote:I agree that academics as a whole are left of center, but I don't have the intimate knowledge of how classes are being taught to say whether or not I feel like there is an obvious bias that comes through in their teaching. Plenty of people put away their bias on a daily basis, so it would be good if we could talk about specifics as opposed to these rather fluffy examples that don't do a good job of actually defining the issue that is trying to be discussed.

I suggest you open up the T-Sip social science class offerings then. The examples therein are quite replete with that. Not really rocket science to use that as a ggod exemplar.

Quote:And like you said, Evergreen is an outlier - would we see a similar issue if we look at Liberty? I've not watched the video to know what exactly they discuss there, but I assume it would apply to a school that is almost certainly attended by rather conservative students.

Yes Liberty is undoubtedly conservative, just as Claremont is libertarian or conservative. Neither gives the short shrift that many (most) institutions give re: squashing outside voices that the administration or main student body might disagree with. Nor do those institutions give the perverse incentive to remove teachers that Evergreen demonstrated just a short while ago.

In fact, with Claremont in particular, you see an unvarnished zeal to actually present 'out of their line' speakers, teachers, and the massive amount of attention outgoing to invite contra-position thought holders to opine in their pretty widespread (at least in the libertarian world) publications like the Claremont Review of Books.

When you see a bunch of Liberty students and/or faculty with the complicit help of administrations trying to stop the liberal version of Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro from speaking on campus, why dont you tell us when that happens.

Or perhaps when you find out the conservative school going out of their way to deny a liberal version of the YAF a school club accreditation, along with the snide emails from college admins (as happened in the last two years at University of Kentucky and those emails being revealed under only under subpoena two weeks ago), then again, please feel free to make that equivalence.

I might be living in a cloistered world. But when you opine or ask that such an equivalence be extended to the Liberty Universitys or the Claremonts of this country, it might behoove you to have actual arguable issues that have recently occurred like those are readily visible in the contra-direction. As opposed to making 'perhaps' type statements.

Tanq, that was the exact reason I was asking Illini to give more details about what he was talking about...

Ironically, none of your examples actually touch on what is being taught on campus, but rather focus on extracurricular issues that relate more to student body concerns/issues, and not the material being taught.

I lack both the personal experience or knowledge through research to evaluate if there is an overwhelming bias in either direction, at any university, with respect to what is taught in the classroom. Illini spoke enough about his feelings of "liberal indoctrination" that I figured he would have some good examples of what he was talking about - yet you seem to want to try and play gatekeeper and not let the question through...
08-26-2019 01:50 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #20
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 01:50 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 12:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:59 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.

To the bold - I was asking for clarification about Illini's points given that I didn't feel like I experienced those issues as Rice. I thought the question marks would give that away...

And Illini quite explicitly agreed with the statement that he felt that "policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is .... not as extreme as at universities that make the news." Doesnt seem to warrant a clarification as it seems in line with your more recent than ours experience.

Quote:I agree that academics as a whole are left of center, but I don't have the intimate knowledge of how classes are being taught to say whether or not I feel like there is an obvious bias that comes through in their teaching. Plenty of people put away their bias on a daily basis, so it would be good if we could talk about specifics as opposed to these rather fluffy examples that don't do a good job of actually defining the issue that is trying to be discussed.

I suggest you open up the T-Sip social science class offerings then. The examples therein are quite replete with that. Not really rocket science to use that as a ggod exemplar.

Quote:And like you said, Evergreen is an outlier - would we see a similar issue if we look at Liberty? I've not watched the video to know what exactly they discuss there, but I assume it would apply to a school that is almost certainly attended by rather conservative students.

Yes Liberty is undoubtedly conservative, just as Claremont is libertarian or conservative. Neither gives the short shrift that many (most) institutions give re: squashing outside voices that the administration or main student body might disagree with. Nor do those institutions give the perverse incentive to remove teachers that Evergreen demonstrated just a short while ago.

In fact, with Claremont in particular, you see an unvarnished zeal to actually present 'out of their line' speakers, teachers, and the massive amount of attention outgoing to invite contra-position thought holders to opine in their pretty widespread (at least in the libertarian world) publications like the Claremont Review of Books.

When you see a bunch of Liberty students and/or faculty with the complicit help of administrations trying to stop the liberal version of Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro from speaking on campus, why dont you tell us when that happens.

Or perhaps when you find out the conservative school going out of their way to deny a liberal version of the YAF a school club accreditation, along with the snide emails from college admins (as happened in the last two years at University of Kentucky and those emails being revealed under only under subpoena two weeks ago), then again, please feel free to make that equivalence.

I might be living in a cloistered world. But when you opine or ask that such an equivalence be extended to the Liberty Universitys or the Claremonts of this country, it might behoove you to have actual arguable issues that have recently occurred like those are readily visible in the contra-direction. As opposed to making 'perhaps' type statements.

Tanq, that was the exact reason I was asking Illini to give more details about what he was talking about...

Ironically, none of your examples actually touch on what is being taught on campus, but rather focus on extracurricular issues that relate more to student body concerns/issues, and not the material being taught.

I lack both the personal experience or knowledge through research to evaluate if there is an overwhelming bias in either direction, at any university, with respect to what is taught in the classroom. Illini spoke enough about his feelings of "liberal indoctrination" that I figured he would have some good examples of what he was talking about - yet you seem to want to try and play gatekeeper and not let the question through...

Yes, to clarify, the things my friends (especially the ones with current Rice students) are finding objectionable are more the university's increasing tolerance/indulgence of liberal students' intolerance; they aren't accusing Rice of being a place where liberal faculty overtly belittle conservative viewpoints in class, or hector students, or anything like that.

But not all malfeasance is so cartoonish, right? I am saying that when you live in a bubble, you can at the very least be blind to your own biases, and I did use the phrase "actively or passively." Quite simply, I don't think it's healthy for a profession devoted to the pursuit of ideas to be so overwhelmingly imbalanced. That's my (very general) problem with "college in America." Now, is Rice trying to be any different? Does the Rice admin see an overwhelmingly liberal faculty/admin as a bug or an irrelevancy or (heaven forbid) a feature?

And with regard to the student/campus atmosphere, cannot administration tolerance of intolerant excesses at some point become encouragement and approval?

Also, if you truly are willing to take it on faith that teachers and others can just put away their personal biases in their professional dealings, I'm glad to hear it, but you will find yourself out of step with liberal orthodoxy on that one.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2019 02:37 PM by illiniowl.)
08-26-2019 02:15 PM
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