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59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #21
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-26-2019 01:50 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 12:41 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:59 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-26-2019 11:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What's the liberal indoctrination look like? I don't remember my Econ 101 course feeling overly liberal or conservative. Same for any of my other non-science/engineering courses. And the only science/engineering type courses that felt "liberal" were classes focusing on the concepts of sustainable design.

Are we maybe confusing the atmosphere, especially around other students, with what professors are teaching? Or is it that we feel like there should be equal time given to the other side, regardless of how well supported/unsupported it is in the academic community?

First, I think that you have misinterpreted Illini's comments. He specifically indicates that he feels Rice doesnt fit the mold on the general scope of college liberal indoctrination.

Second, If your comments are directed to that general scope, you should be very aware of your own comments over the weekend about the efficacy of argument by single example.

Third, try looking at either of these series of youtube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk&t=8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM (The complete Evergreen Story)

Granted Evergreen is at the far end of the bell curve, but the lessons from it can be found in a vast majority of our institutions of higher learning.

Finally, I dont think it can be arguable that college administrators and faculty are overwhelmingly left of center. And one cannot hide from the implication that with such an overwhelming abundance, that a bias in the outlook being taught generally cannot be ignored.

To the bold - I was asking for clarification about Illini's points given that I didn't feel like I experienced those issues as Rice. I thought the question marks would give that away...

And Illini quite explicitly agreed with the statement that he felt that "policing and groupthink enforcement at Rice is .... not as extreme as at universities that make the news." Doesnt seem to warrant a clarification as it seems in line with your more recent than ours experience.

Quote:I agree that academics as a whole are left of center, but I don't have the intimate knowledge of how classes are being taught to say whether or not I feel like there is an obvious bias that comes through in their teaching. Plenty of people put away their bias on a daily basis, so it would be good if we could talk about specifics as opposed to these rather fluffy examples that don't do a good job of actually defining the issue that is trying to be discussed.

I suggest you open up the T-Sip social science class offerings then. The examples therein are quite replete with that. Not really rocket science to use that as a ggod exemplar.

Quote:And like you said, Evergreen is an outlier - would we see a similar issue if we look at Liberty? I've not watched the video to know what exactly they discuss there, but I assume it would apply to a school that is almost certainly attended by rather conservative students.

Yes Liberty is undoubtedly conservative, just as Claremont is libertarian or conservative. Neither gives the short shrift that many (most) institutions give re: squashing outside voices that the administration or main student body might disagree with. Nor do those institutions give the perverse incentive to remove teachers that Evergreen demonstrated just a short while ago.

In fact, with Claremont in particular, you see an unvarnished zeal to actually present 'out of their line' speakers, teachers, and the massive amount of attention outgoing to invite contra-position thought holders to opine in their pretty widespread (at least in the libertarian world) publications like the Claremont Review of Books.

When you see a bunch of Liberty students and/or faculty with the complicit help of administrations trying to stop the liberal version of Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro from speaking on campus, why dont you tell us when that happens.

Or perhaps when you find out the conservative school going out of their way to deny a liberal version of the YAF a school club accreditation, along with the snide emails from college admins (as happened in the last two years at University of Kentucky and those emails being revealed under only under subpoena two weeks ago), then again, please feel free to make that equivalence.

I might be living in a cloistered world. But when you opine or ask that such an equivalence be extended to the Liberty Universitys or the Claremonts of this country, it might behoove you to have actual arguable issues that have recently occurred like those are readily visible in the contra-direction. As opposed to making 'perhaps' type statements.

Tanq, that was the exact reason I was asking Illini to give more details about what he was talking about...

Ironically, none of your examples actually touch on what is being taught on campus, but rather focus on extracurricular issues that relate more to student body concerns/issues, and not the material being taught.

I lack both the personal experience or knowledge through research to evaluate if there is an overwhelming bias in either direction, at any university, with respect to what is taught in the classroom. Illini spoke enough about his feelings of "liberal indoctrination" that I figured he would have some good examples of what he was talking about - yet you seem to want to try and play gatekeeper and not let the question through...

Then I suggest you look at the 7 part Evergreen video series. I think that addresses your issues head on, to be blunt.
08-26-2019 05:27 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #22
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-21-2019 10:08 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  We have lots of buildings all over campus with the names of professional engineers on them. AFAIK, none with the names of engineering professors.

There is one, and I had a hand in it: Wilson House, the new Masters house at Wiess College, named in honor of long-time RA William "Dr. Bill" Wilson. The house was built a year or so after Dr. Bill died, and the memory of his passing was still quite fresh. My wife came up with the idea to name it after him, and we spearheaded it to the administration.

There have been other buildings at Rice named after professors, but Wilson House is the only one named after a former Master or RA.
08-26-2019 07:16 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #23
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(08-20-2019 03:36 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  - ironically, some of the people best equipped to enter the work place are those with humanity degrees like history. Those students are really well versed in writing and critical thinking, when compared to engineering students (like myself).

The opposite also holds true: many humanities/social sciences graduates are poorly versed in writing and critical thinking when compared to engineering graduates (like myself and many others). Conversely, some of the best writers and thinkers I know were science/engineering students. That is perhaps not too surprising at Rice when you consider that engineering majors have higher SAT verbal scores than non-engineering majors, year in and year out.

I have not seen much evidence that majoring in a non-technical discipline makes one a better thinker. On the other hand, I have seen ample evidence of people majoring in history without learning much at all about history. That doesn't mean they are poor thinkers, but it can mean that they managed to get a degree without mastering a subject matter.

One thing that does seem to correlate with being a good thinker and communicator is being, by choice, an avid reader. Among fellow alums, I haven't noticed that people's appetite for reading aligns with their majors.
08-26-2019 07:30 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #24
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
Perhaps this compendium of college activities might be rationale for the negative poll numbers:



12-28-2019 03:34 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-28-2019 03:34 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Perhaps this compendium of college activities might be rationale for the negative poll numbers:




Problem is, these are not isolated incidents. Tip of the iceberg, really. They think they have not only the right, but the duty, to stop speech they don't like and to attack people who think differently from them.

But the left keeps going back to that one old guy who punched a protester at a Trump rally four years ago to point the finger at the right.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 04:24 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
12-28-2019 04:17 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I thought by now the lefties would have put together their own montage of right wingers attacking innocent students on college campuses. Maybe they are having trouble finding them.
12-28-2019 10:59 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I am sure the creation of that montage is happening at a furious pace, given the amazing amount of right wing college 'attack actions'.
12-29-2019 12:37 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-29-2019 12:37 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I am sure the creation of that montage is happening at a furious pace, given the amazing amount of right wing college 'attack actions'.

I don't think the old guy at the Trump rally was a college student. Just a citizen fed up with the way things were going.


Fountains seems to be pretty good with the A-V stuff. I bet he finishes his montage before At Ease.

Seriously, the tolerant left seems pretty intolerant to me.
12-29-2019 12:56 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #29
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
12-29-2019 01:00 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
Kind of tangential to the discussion(Can it be called that?) of leftists acting badly, but it is notable that this list of the the three rudest cities in America are all Democrat dominated.

1.New York
2. Los Angeles
3. Washington, DC

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lifestyl...vi-BBYfqd7
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2019 01:12 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
12-29-2019 12:17 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #31
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-29-2019 12:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Kind of tangential to the discussion(Can it be called that?) of leftists acting badly, but it is notable that this list of the the three rudest cities in America are all Democrat dominated.

1.New York
2. Los Angeles
3. Washington, DC

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lifestyl...vi-BBYfqd7

Breaking news - large urban areas are majority Democrat.

Breaking news - large urban areas create some cranky people.

Wonder what the three friendliest big cities are? Houston is pretty friendly, after all.
12-29-2019 06:14 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #32
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-29-2019 06:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-29-2019 12:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Kind of tangential to the discussion(Can it be called that?) of leftists acting badly, but it is notable that this list of the the three rudest cities in America are all Democrat dominated.

1.New York
2. Los Angeles
3. Washington, DC

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lifestyl...vi-BBYfqd7

Breaking news - large urban areas are majority Democrat.

Breaking news - large urban areas create some cranky people.

Wonder what the three friendliest big cities are? Houston is pretty friendly, after all.

So I guess your message is that large concentrations of Democrats are cranky and rude.

I agree. They are also self-righteous.

I live in a small town. Not moving to a big town - too many cranky, rude Democrats there.
12-29-2019 06:54 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
FBO: I feel the headline here is unnecessarily divisive. While 59% of Republicans say this, according to a cursory review of your post, over 50% of EVERYONE says this... which means that more than 40% of everyone else agrees.

So while it may slightly lean right, it's hardly a divisive opinion.

Rice University is a top 20 University. There are HUNDREDS of Universities, and more importantly... hundreds of degrees at those Universities. The most worthless degree at a bottom 20 University is undeniably, questionable in value at best.

I believe Republicans more than the average (like maybe 59% vs closer to 45% believe that there are some degrees that a decent number of people get... spending on occasion 6 figures to get... that are at best a hobby and not remotely worth the cost, certainly as compared to a vocational degree. The 'meme' is a barrista with 100k in school loans and a degree that is unnecessary to their profession, doesn't help them get a higher paying job to justify the education... and at least in some ways

I know I fairly frequently get applications from people who want to be paid more because they have a BA in a field unrelated to healthcare... than someone with an AA in a healthcare field. Sorry, but they will be paid less... at least for my jobs.

Continuing education and other self-improvement sorts of classes are often just as valuable and sometimes more valuable than SOME University courses and even some degrees. Certainly you'd agree that certificates in many IT courses are potentially vastly more valuable and less expensive than a degree in a field that doesn't lead to a job in the field of study?

I'm not saying college exists to give you a job, but I am saying that spending 100k on something not worth 100k in additional income over your life can easily lead to the expectation of higher wages because you have a degree (ANY degree) as opposed to a skill
12-30-2019 05:53 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #34
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
"The 'meme' is a barrista with 100k in school loans and a degree that is unnecessary to their profession..."

This was my nephew with his Art History degree from Southwestern U.

Now works as a paralegal (Art History degree still useless), but my plumber grandson without a day of college (and no debt) makes more.
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2019 06:46 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
12-30-2019 06:42 PM
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Post: #35
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-30-2019 05:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  FBO: I feel the headline here is unnecessarily divisive. While 59% of Republicans say this, according to a cursory review of your post, over 50% of EVERYONE says this... which means that more than 40% of everyone else agrees.
So while it may slightly lean right, it's hardly a divisive opinion.
Rice University is a top 20 University. There are HUNDREDS of Universities, and more importantly... hundreds of degrees at those Universities. The most worthless degree at a bottom 20 University is undeniably, questionable in value at best.
I believe Republicans more than the average (like maybe 59% vs closer to 45% believe that there are some degrees that a decent number of people get... spending on occasion 6 figures to get... that are at best a hobby and not remotely worth the cost, certainly as compared to a vocational degree. The 'meme' is a barrista with 100k in school loans and a degree that is unnecessary to their profession, doesn't help them get a higher paying job to justify the education... and at least in some ways
I know I fairly frequently get applications from people who want to be paid more because they have a BA in a field unrelated to healthcare... than someone with an AA in a healthcare field. Sorry, but they will be paid less... at least for my jobs.
Continuing education and other self-improvement sorts of classes are often just as valuable and sometimes more valuable than SOME University courses and even some degrees. Certainly you'd agree that certificates in many IT courses are potentially vastly more valuable and less expensive than a degree in a field that doesn't lead to a job in the field of study?
I'm not saying college exists to give you a job, but I am saying that spending 100k on something not worth 100k in additional income over your life can easily lead to the expectation of higher wages because you have a degree (ANY degree) as opposed to a skill

Well stated.
12-30-2019 11:04 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I suspect 90% of Democrats believe that spending 100k+ for a degree that doesn't lead to a job that allows you to pay back that debt is bad for America.

Democrat's general solution is to have other people pay for their education, despite its relatively low ROI, even to the recipient of the education... A choice without a consequence for the person making the choice. Republican's general solution is to acquire the bulk of the knowledge though perhaps not with the paper that goes with it, and certainly not the expense.... OR to acquire different knowledge (skills or degree).

(12-29-2019 06:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Breaking news - large urban areas are majority Democrat.

Breaking news - large urban areas create some cranky people.

But you miss the very clear connection.

People don't live in large cities because they're democrats... they're democrats because they live in large cities. They want to control their neighbors actions because there is only a paper wall between them and lots of shared, communal space. They believe less in property rights because they have little property.

Many people, especially younger people in places like NY and SF live essentially in communes. They rent a room and share common spaces with strangers. You can't live far enough away from SF and NYC to work there, but not pay insane amounts of rent. In Houston, though it's gotten much worse, you still can. You might have one room mate for $1,000/mo in Houston... but in NY you have 4, and in SF you have 6. Now the property owner may be a Democrat and own a lot, but HE wants to control people because they live in his property... and they make a ton of money because of the density. They're the ruling class.

'How you live' is a big part of determining how you think others should live.
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2019 10:08 AM by Hambone10.)
12-31-2019 10:06 AM
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Guardian Offline
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Post: #37
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
I'm a high school graduate with a 6-figure job, making more than those 4-year and even some 6-year college grads around me. That said, I quit 13 classes shy of my B.S. so I have a bit of view on each side:

I did learn some things in college.
Those things have not helped me in the real world.

I closed the 'pay gap' by being a force on the job and outperforming those around me. I learned what needed to be learned on the job as quickly as I could. Some of the people here spend hours arguing about philosophical ideas on how we could do things better. I spend that time experimenting in the work itself and finding the best outcome without the wasted debate.

College isn't for everybody. I would even say college isn't for most.

Just my two cents.
12-31-2019 10:37 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #38
RE: 59 pct of Republicans now think College is bad for America
(12-31-2019 10:37 AM)Guardian Wrote:  I'm a high school graduate with a 6-figure job, making more than those 4-year and even some 6-year college grads around me. That said, I quit 13 classes shy of my B.S. so I have a bit of view on each side:

I did learn some things in college.
Those things have not helped me in the real world.

I closed the 'pay gap' by being a force on the job and outperforming those around me. I learned what needed to be learned on the job as quickly as I could. Some of the people here spend hours arguing about philosophical ideas on how we could do things better. I spend that time experimenting in the work itself and finding the best outcome without the wasted debate.

College isn't for everybody. I would even say college isn't for most.

Just my two cents.

Thanks. Your two cents seem right on the money. (Pun intended)

We have done a disservice to many by advertising a college degree as the way to a better life, without any qualifiers. So we end up with a lot of people with useless degrees and a lot of debt. A lot of those people would have done better by just getting out into the workforce or getting some technical training.

I see some of those degrees as door openers, no more than that. My own degrees were mostly useless in my work.
12-31-2019 10:55 AM
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