(08-21-2019 05:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-21-2019 02:55 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 05:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  This is an incredibly disingenuous statement of facts
1) Russia DID try and influence our election. There may well be studies claiming specific numbers... I haven't seen them but I wouldn't dispute them. THE RIGHT has been arguing all along that this has been going on for decades, and we do the same thing. NEVER has the right argued that they didn't.
2) The claim was that they HACKED our election, implying that votes were changed. That people who voted for one candidate, their votes were somehow changed. That did NOT happen.
3) Hillary did the same thing. Trump through Breitbart I suspect also did the same thing
How do they do it? The same way Democrats have been doing it ever since. They post a multitude of false or misleading articles as facts... and when people search for facts/proof, they are instead diverted to opinions. They do EXACTLY what you have done here... claiming that the right said 'no voters were influenced' when what they said was 'no votes were changed'.
Same with 'Trump said all immigrants are criminals'... and 'Trump called white nationalists 'fine people''...

1) I agree that a country trying to exert influence in another county's elections isn't a new thing. However, I believe it's more prevalent now due to the ubiquity of social media. The information age has allowed propaganda and misinformation to spread at light speed, and that's a reality we will have to live with going forward. It reminds me of that quote: "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes". The quote predates the internet, but it's more true than ever.
That said, wouldn't the responsible thing to do is strengthen our election security at home while at the same time punishing countries who do meddle? I admit that the Trump administration has placed sanctions on Russia for doing just that, but I don't think they will force Russia to rethink their actions in future elections. Trump putting on a stern face and telling Putin to "cut it out" won't do the trick.
2) I agree that Russia literally didn't change anyone's vote. They did plenty of hacking though.

Strengthening our election security at home is a good idea, but there's no indication that our election security was breached last time. Hacking the DNC and Podesta, whoever did it, is not hacking our election security.

Did the DNC and Podesta need to strengthen their information security? Absolutely. Did Hillary in 2013-2018? Absolutely. I find is fittingly ironic that Hillary beat the information security rap for her home server, but got undone at least partially by poor information security in her campaign.

Again, hacking the DNC and Podesta is not the same as "hacking our election" or "hacking our democracy." Unless you assume that the DNC and Podesta are "our election" or "our democracy." Of course, I think that is exactly the mistake that many on the left make.

Dude, have you not read anything I've posted or any of the investigations? They literally gained access to nearly every state's elections systems.

Well if I read the Google charges I guess Google's efforts to sway votes left were probably offset by Russia's efforts to sway votes right. Popular vote or not, President Trump won what he needed to win to be President Trump; and therefore we are not living through President Clinton v2.0.

Let's call it a wash and see if we can do any better in 2020......


NONE of this hot air is going to change who is sitting int the Oval Office right now, rather than wasting your energy on these things that WILL not change that fact, why don't the dems figure out who and how to win the seat back..... Every f-ing day they waste sky screaming makes it that much harder for them to overcome the glaring deficiencies their entire Democratic field is running on.

Not one of your candidates has the balls to run on anything that doesn't start end and with "Not Trump" - if you want to honestly try to beat the guy, THE best thing you could do right now is IGNORE that narcissistic magnificent orange bastard and pretend he isn't even there. If you want him to become unhinged, pay him no attention - his ego would not be able to handle it!

(08-22-2019 08:50 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Merely asking if you've seen anyone claim votes were changed or implied that they were changed. I don't think I have. That's all.

Then you simply weren't paying attention

Why would a report on Russian Interference specifically talk about 'changing votes' if there weren't articulated concerns that this specifically had happened?

(08-22-2019 08:53 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Dude, have you not read anything I've posted or any of the investigations? They literally gained access to nearly every state's elections systems.

Please define 'election systems' as well as 'access'. I think we'll disagree vehemently on the definitions.

We're talking about votes and voters. No voter databases were changed meaning nobody was kept from voting. No votes were changed. There is a difference between gaining access to a file and being able to edit, delete or manipulate that file on the server.

What Russia did is no different from what Google, Facebook, Apple and the Obama administration also do/did. They wrote or even retweeted stories that told a side of a story that they wanted shared... they data-mined people to hit their hot-buttons. THAT is how they influenced the election. They did try and infiltrate state voter databases with minor success. Their biggest success was hacking the DNC. They did NOT 'hack' the election.

(08-21-2019 02:39 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(08-21-2019 02:15 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 06:57 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 01:08 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 01:05 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The same way Russia...oh wait...that was TOTALLY impossible, AMIRITE?

Right. Russia, a hostile foreign power, had absolutely no influence on the outcome of our election...

But Google gave Hillary 16 million more votes.

Who's said that? Name names.

bump

Plenty of folks claimed that Russia didn't have an influence on the outcome of the election. I don't believe Russia literally changed anyone's vote, but I'm positive their targeted disinformation campaign in the US certainly swayed voters in Trump's favor.

My original post was trying to tie the two topics together. Trump supporters got all bent out of shape when the left accused Russia of influencing the election to put Trump in the White House. They claimed "Russia didn't actually change any votes"....

Well, nor did Google.

Russia's efforts were pretty insignificant.

And you fail to mention that they also helped Sanders AND Hillary. Read Mueller's report. Their main effort was to divide Americans and undermine faith in the system. The whole Democratic Party has become Putin's puppets, doing his bidding, with their constant crazy conspiracy theories.

(08-21-2019 05:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-21-2019 02:55 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 05:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  This is an incredibly disingenuous statement of facts
1) Russia DID try and influence our election. There may well be studies claiming specific numbers... I haven't seen them but I wouldn't dispute them. THE RIGHT has been arguing all along that this has been going on for decades, and we do the same thing. NEVER has the right argued that they didn't.
2) The claim was that they HACKED our election, implying that votes were changed. That people who voted for one candidate, their votes were somehow changed. That did NOT happen.
3) Hillary did the same thing. Trump through Breitbart I suspect also did the same thing
How do they do it? The same way Democrats have been doing it ever since. They post a multitude of false or misleading articles as facts... and when people search for facts/proof, they are instead diverted to opinions. They do EXACTLY what you have done here... claiming that the right said 'no voters were influenced' when what they said was 'no votes were changed'.
Same with 'Trump said all immigrants are criminals'... and 'Trump called white nationalists 'fine people''...

1) I agree that a country trying to exert influence in another county's elections isn't a new thing. However, I believe it's more prevalent now due to the ubiquity of social media. The information age has allowed propaganda and misinformation to spread at light speed, and that's a reality we will have to live with going forward. It reminds me of that quote: "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes". The quote predates the internet, but it's more true than ever.
That said, wouldn't the responsible thing to do is strengthen our election security at home while at the same time punishing countries who do meddle? I admit that the Trump administration has placed sanctions on Russia for doing just that, but I don't think they will force Russia to rethink their actions in future elections. Trump putting on a stern face and telling Putin to "cut it out" won't do the trick.
2) I agree that Russia literally didn't change anyone's vote. They did plenty of hacking though.

Strengthening our election security at home is a good idea, but there's no indication that our election security was breached last time. Hacking the DNC and Podesta, whoever did it, is not hacking our election security.

Did the DNC and Podesta need to strengthen their information security? Absolutely. Did Hillary in 2013-2018? Absolutely. I find is fittingly ironic that Hillary beat the information security rap for her home server, but got undone at least partially by poor information security in her campaign.

Again, hacking the DNC and Podesta is not the same as "hacking our election" or "hacking our democracy." Unless you assume that the DNC and Podesta are "our election" or "our democracy." Of course, I think that is exactly the mistake that many on the left make.

They did try to hack voter registration databases, but didn't succeed in changing anything.

Couldn't readily find Mueller's initial report from 2017-2018.

But for any who don't remember, he found that Russia sponsored meetings for candidates. As I recall there were around 65 listed in the index. Roughly 5 were for Hillary. The rest were closely split between Sanders and Trump with a few more for Trump.

And the conclusion was that they were trying to divide the country by pushing the most divisive issues.

(08-22-2019 08:53 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(08-21-2019 05:10 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-21-2019 02:55 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 05:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  This is an incredibly disingenuous statement of facts
1) Russia DID try and influence our election. There may well be studies claiming specific numbers... I haven't seen them but I wouldn't dispute them. THE RIGHT has been arguing all along that this has been going on for decades, and we do the same thing. NEVER has the right argued that they didn't.
2) The claim was that they HACKED our election, implying that votes were changed. That people who voted for one candidate, their votes were somehow changed. That did NOT happen.
3) Hillary did the same thing. Trump through Breitbart I suspect also did the same thing
How do they do it? The same way Democrats have been doing it ever since. They post a multitude of false or misleading articles as facts... and when people search for facts/proof, they are instead diverted to opinions. They do EXACTLY what you have done here... claiming that the right said 'no voters were influenced' when what they said was 'no votes were changed'.
Same with 'Trump said all immigrants are criminals'... and 'Trump called white nationalists 'fine people''...

1) I agree that a country trying to exert influence in another county's elections isn't a new thing. However, I believe it's more prevalent now due to the ubiquity of social media. The information age has allowed propaganda and misinformation to spread at light speed, and that's a reality we will have to live with going forward. It reminds me of that quote: "A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes". The quote predates the internet, but it's more true than ever.
That said, wouldn't the responsible thing to do is strengthen our election security at home while at the same time punishing countries who do meddle? I admit that the Trump administration has placed sanctions on Russia for doing just that, but I don't think they will force Russia to rethink their actions in future elections. Trump putting on a stern face and telling Putin to "cut it out" won't do the trick.
2) I agree that Russia literally didn't change anyone's vote. They did plenty of hacking though.

Strengthening our election security at home is a good idea, but there's no indication that our election security was breached last time. Hacking the DNC and Podesta, whoever did it, is not hacking our election security.

Did the DNC and Podesta need to strengthen their information security? Absolutely. Did Hillary in 2013-2018? Absolutely. I find is fittingly ironic that Hillary beat the information security rap for her home server, but got undone at least partially by poor information security in her campaign.

Again, hacking the DNC and Podesta is not the same as "hacking our election" or "hacking our democracy." Unless you assume that the DNC and Podesta are "our election" or "our democracy." Of course, I think that is exactly the mistake that many on the left make.

Dude, have you not read anything I've posted or any of the investigations? They literally gained access to nearly every state's elections systems.

No they literally did not. They literally attempted to. Kinda different.....