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UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
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bearcatmark Online
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Post: #41
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 12:52 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 02:34 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 09:20 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 12:23 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  As far as getting in the best bowls goes, Any loss hurts more than a great win helps. If you look at the playoff teams over the years it's basically counting losses. When teams are even schedule/strength of wins can come into play...and G5 teams are always going to have a huge penalty, but if you want to know which P5 teams / ND make the playoff...count their losses.

That is my thinking as well. We should schedule the best teams we have a reasonable shot at beating. Losing even to great teams doesn’t help anything. When you’re not p5 you need to go undefeated to really make noise. If we build up multiple big seasons and a loaded roster that has a legit shot at beating top tier teams is when we should really push for it. Until then it’s fun once and a while but not a great idea to lock a sure loss into the schedule every year, especially with unfavorable terms

That's a philosophy of fear. Not a good look for a program that wants to step up. Don't be afraid of these teams...schedule them!

its not a philosophy of fear at all. its understanding the system is rigged and taking your best shot within a rigged system. half the country has no chance at the playoffs. this was proven twice by ucf. best you can do is get the ny6 bowl. best chance of that is by going undefeated. then you would get both. you get a shot at a big program AND you get the big bowl game with the whole nation watching a top 20 Bearcat team in primetime. until college football becomes a legitimate competition, scheduling for undefeated seasons is the smart move for any non p5 school.

We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone
 
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2019 05:36 AM by bearcatmark.)
08-16-2019 05:36 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #42
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 12:52 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 02:34 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-14-2019 09:20 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  That is my thinking as well. We should schedule the best teams we have a reasonable shot at beating. Losing even to great teams doesn’t help anything. When you’re not p5 you need to go undefeated to really make noise. If we build up multiple big seasons and a loaded roster that has a legit shot at beating top tier teams is when we should really push for it. Until then it’s fun once and a while but not a great idea to lock a sure loss into the schedule every year, especially with unfavorable terms

That's a philosophy of fear. Not a good look for a program that wants to step up. Don't be afraid of these teams...schedule them!

Bolded, that's a critical element here for sure. Odds are, UC wasn't going out to the Rose Bowl and winning against UCLA last year. That's what made that one special. Had UC lost a competitive game there though, we'd all be pointing to the one at Nippert to even the series.

its not a philosophy of fear at all. its understanding the system is rigged and taking your best shot within a rigged system. half the country has no chance at the playoffs. this was proven twice by ucf. best you can do is get the ny6 bowl. best chance of that is by going undefeated. then you would get both. you get a shot at a big program AND you get the big bowl game with the whole nation watching a top 20 Bearcat team in primetime. until college football becomes a legitimate competition, scheduling for undefeated seasons is the smart move for any non p5 school.

We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.
 
08-16-2019 08:03 AM
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converrl Offline
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Post: #43
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 08:03 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 12:52 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 02:34 AM)converrl Wrote:  That's a philosophy of fear. Not a good look for a program that wants to step up. Don't be afraid of these teams...schedule them!

Bolded, that's a critical element here for sure. Odds are, UC wasn't going out to the Rose Bowl and winning against UCLA last year. That's what made that one special. Had UC lost a competitive game there though, we'd all be pointing to the one at Nippert to even the series.

its not a philosophy of fear at all. its understanding the system is rigged and taking your best shot within a rigged system. half the country has no chance at the playoffs. this was proven twice by ucf. best you can do is get the ny6 bowl. best chance of that is by going undefeated. then you would get both. you get a shot at a big program AND you get the big bowl game with the whole nation watching a top 20 Bearcat team in primetime. until college football becomes a legitimate competition, scheduling for undefeated seasons is the smart move for any non p5 school.

We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.

They are if you win them.
 
08-16-2019 08:27 AM
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cmhcat Offline
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Post: #44
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
Ever since UC alum Meyer took over tOSU, they have been on a higher plane. I am not looking forward to this game. At least three for two or drop it.
 
08-16-2019 08:42 AM
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cincy7718 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 08:27 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:03 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-15-2019 12:52 PM)cincy7718 Wrote:  Bolded, that's a critical element here for sure. Odds are, UC wasn't going out to the Rose Bowl and winning against UCLA last year. That's what made that one special. Had UC lost a competitive game there though, we'd all be pointing to the one at Nippert to even the series.

its not a philosophy of fear at all. its understanding the system is rigged and taking your best shot within a rigged system. half the country has no chance at the playoffs. this was proven twice by ucf. best you can do is get the ny6 bowl. best chance of that is by going undefeated. then you would get both. you get a shot at a big program AND you get the big bowl game with the whole nation watching a top 20 Bearcat team in primetime. until college football becomes a legitimate competition, scheduling for undefeated seasons is the smart move for any non p5 school.

We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.

They are if you win them.

Except they won’t win so it only adds a loss.
 
08-16-2019 11:53 AM
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natibeast21 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 11:53 AM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:27 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:03 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.

They are if you win them.

Except they won’t win so it only adds a loss.

Negative Nancy. Lost 23-19 when they won the championship in 2002. The game in 2014 was 36-28 with UC having the ball under 6 minutes in the 4th quarter when again Ohio State won the National Championship in 2014 (We gave up over 700 yards this game).

Both of those OSU teams are their best in the last 30 years. You can debate the 2002 team really being that good, but they ended beating one of the top 10 teams in history IMO in The U.
 
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2019 02:50 PM by natibeast21.)
08-16-2019 02:49 PM
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Post: #47
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!
 
08-16-2019 03:31 PM
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Post: #48
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Classy!

Thanks, and see you in Columbus in week 2!
 
08-16-2019 04:57 PM
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Post: #49
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 11:53 AM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:27 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:03 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.

They are if you win them.

Except they won’t win so it only adds a loss.

Then what are your peak expectations for the program? Is our ceiling simply winning a bowl game and being ranked in the bottom of the top 25 at the end of the year? If that's the case, why hold on to CLF?

I'll bet my bottom $$ that CLF has his sights set higher.
 
08-16-2019 05:18 PM
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Post: #50
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 11:53 AM)cincy7718 Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:27 AM)converrl Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 08:03 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 05:36 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 04:20 AM)converrl Wrote:  We could get in if we took Notre Dame's approach--play and beat the big boys while going undefeated. Then they have to give you a chance.
Notre dame's approach doesn't involve 1 off road games. I'd love to play home and home games against anyone

Bolded, that's really a critical element, isn't it? UC went to the Rose Bowl a year ago with few believing they would beat UCLA. Had the Bearcats lost a competitive game there, we'd all be pointing to the opener at Nippert as a chance to even the series.

So flip that to this season. UC goes to a hostile environment in Columbus with a young team, battles to the end and comes up a little short. How much fun would it be to get a rematch the following season in Cincy? Yet these two teams may never meet again.

Other than a big payday for UC, the one off road games against elite programs probably aren't good for building a program.

They are if you win them.

Except they won’t win so it only adds a loss.

No, they’re not going to win. They’re going to dominate. 15-0. CLF statue goes up the next day.
 
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2019 05:22 PM by Dannyboy.)
08-16-2019 05:20 PM
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bearcatdp Offline
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RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
I totally agree with the title of this thread - bring back the Oregon State games!
 
08-17-2019 09:21 AM
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Z-Fly Offline
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Post: #52
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Would you be willing to do 1-1s?
 
08-17-2019 07:21 PM
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natibeast21 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
 
(This post was last modified: 08-17-2019 08:21 PM by natibeast21.)
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RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.
 
08-17-2019 09:12 PM
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Z-Fly Offline
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Post: #55
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-17-2019 09:12 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.

I was just curious if cubucks only wanted the games if they were there every year.
 
08-18-2019 09:42 PM
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natibeast21 Offline
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RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-18-2019 09:42 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 09:12 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-16-2019 03:31 PM)cubucks Wrote:  I would like to see this game played every year. Best of luck to you all this year!

Bearcats!

Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.

I was just curious if cubucks only wanted the games if they were there every year.

Gotcha. I think the series could be beneficial to both sides, but OSU knows if they ever lost to UC it would be a BIG/HUGE loss for recruiting, perception, etc.

I mean if your an Ohio State fan and UC would play every game up there obviously you accept.

As a UC fan you are trying to get as many games at home as possible.

As a football fan that knows this game should be played every year unless Louisville ever wants to restart our rivalry then the only option I see plausible is a similar setup we have with Miami.

This is what I would propose: 1-1 where our home game rotates between PBS and Nippert. So every 4 years we have 1 true home game and 1 at PBS and then 2 at Ohio Stadium.

Still, highly unlikely OSU admin would be interested in this, therefore unless they pay us insane amounts to play up there I don’t see the series being yearly.


Edit: If UC would accept the below I could see OSU liking this 5 year series

1) @OSU
2) @PBS
3) @OSU
4) @UC
5) @OSU
 
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 11:30 AM by natibeast21.)
08-19-2019 10:59 AM
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #57
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-19-2019 10:59 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 09:42 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 09:12 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.

I was just curious if cubucks only wanted the games if they were there every year.

Gotcha. I think the series could be beneficial to both sides, but OSU knows if they ever lost to UC it would be a BIG/HUGE loss for recruiting, perception, etc.

I mean if your an Ohio State fan and UC would play every game up there obviously you accept.

As a UC fan you are trying to get as many games at home as possible.

As a football fan that knows this game should be played every year unless Louisville ever wants to restart our rivalry then the only option I see plausible is a similar setup we have with Miami.

This is what I would propose: 1-1 where our home game rotates between PBS and Nippert. So every 4 years we have 1 true home game and 1 at PBS and then 2 at Ohio Stadium.

Still, highly unlikely OSU admin would be interested in this, therefore unless they pay us insane amounts to play up there I don’t see the series being yearly.


Edit: If UC would accept the below I could see OSU liking this 5 year series

1) @OSU
2) @PBS
3) @OSU
4) @UC
5) @OSU

Bolded, exact same thing was said about 35 years ago with UK forced to step off its throne to play Louisville every year in basketball, home and home. Louisville won early in the series, reinforcing the fears of some Wildcat fans, but it all evened out. Both schools went on to win more national championships so it's hard to argue it diminished KY's stature.

I'm certainly no Buckeye fan, but I will acknowledge they have a top five football program. I don't think they hang their hats on their long in-state winning streak, and they really shouldn't. Winning all those games against the MAC and UC in Columbus, with a single game in PBS (a narrow win too) isn't all that noteworthy. Ohio's historical alignment of state universities enabled that.

In the past 20 years, UC has emerged as that other major public research university and athletics moved up into a BCS 6 conference with entry into the Big East. There should be no shame in playing some games in Cincinnati.

I don't want Ohio's legislators involved (as was the case in KY), but the economic impact of keeping those dollars in OH is substantial, as opposed to OSU playing TCU on the road in Texas for example.
 
08-19-2019 12:36 PM
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Billy_Bearcat Offline
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RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-19-2019 10:59 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 09:42 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 09:12 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 07:21 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  Would you be willing to do 1-1s?

Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.

I was just curious if cubucks only wanted the games if they were there every year.

Gotcha. I think the series could be beneficial to both sides, but OSU knows if they ever lost to UC it would be a BIG/HUGE loss for recruiting, perception, etc.

I mean if your an Ohio State fan and UC would play every game up there obviously you accept.

As a UC fan you are trying to get as many games at home as possible.

As a football fan that knows this game should be played every year unless Louisville ever wants to restart our rivalry then the only option I see plausible is a similar setup we have with Miami.

This is what I would propose: 1-1 where our home game rotates between PBS and Nippert. So every 4 years we have 1 true home game and 1 at PBS and then 2 at Ohio Stadium.

Still, highly unlikely OSU admin would be interested in this, therefore unless they pay us insane amounts to play up there I don’t see the series being yearly.


Edit: If UC would accept the below I could see OSU liking this 5 year series

1) @OSU
2) @PBS
3) @OSU
4) @UC
5) @OSU

I think UC beating O$U only helps UC. It wouldn’t hurt O$U. They are the upper echelon of college football. Losing to UC wouldn’t change that. O$U will still get the top kids. They may just lose a few of their non elite prospects to us. They’ll fill that with 4 stars from other places.
 
08-19-2019 02:00 PM
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natibeast21 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
(08-19-2019 02:00 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 10:59 AM)natibeast21 Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 09:42 PM)Z-Fly Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 09:12 PM)cubucks Wrote:  
(08-17-2019 08:21 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  Fans opinions don’t matter and everyone knows Ohio State won’t for obvious reasons
You're right, fans opinions don't matter. Personally, I don't see a problem doing 1 and 1. Folks collecting ticket sales and concessions would not like my opinion at Ohio State though.

I was just curious if cubucks only wanted the games if they were there every year.

Gotcha. I think the series could be beneficial to both sides, but OSU knows if they ever lost to UC it would be a BIG/HUGE loss for recruiting, perception, etc.

I mean if your an Ohio State fan and UC would play every game up there obviously you accept.

As a UC fan you are trying to get as many games at home as possible.

As a football fan that knows this game should be played every year unless Louisville ever wants to restart our rivalry then the only option I see plausible is a similar setup we have with Miami.

This is what I would propose: 1-1 where our home game rotates between PBS and Nippert. So every 4 years we have 1 true home game and 1 at PBS and then 2 at Ohio Stadium.

Still, highly unlikely OSU admin would be interested in this, therefore unless they pay us insane amounts to play up there I don’t see the series being yearly.


Edit: If UC would accept the below I could see OSU liking this 5 year series

1) @OSU
2) @PBS
3) @OSU
4) @UC
5) @OSU

I think UC beating O$U only helps UC. It wouldn’t hurt O$U. They are the upper echelon of college football. Losing to UC wouldn’t change that. O$U will still get the top kids. They may just lose a few of their non elite prospects to us. They’ll fill that with 4 stars from other places.

I agree. I think they were more concerned with playing UC under Tressel since he focused more on Ohio/Midwest. Urban took them to the national level and Ryan Day seems to be more of a national guy, but still has a couple 3 star kids out of Cincy.

Still, I think Ohio State has become accustomed to the only program in Ohio that can compete for the title. Whether it’s easier recruiting or just wanting the perception of Ohio football is owned by Ohio State for money/fans idk.

I guess we’ll see if the administration will ever take a further look into the benefits of a semi-instate rival could have but I doubt it’s a priority.

I think most fans from both would love to see an annual series both football and basketball except the really ignorant ones that don’t know anything except Clemson, Bama, OSU , Oklahoma etc.
 
08-19-2019 02:15 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #60
RE: UC vs. OSU football: should the games continue?
Listening to Luke Fickell on a podcast with Steven Godfrey. Fick thinks it will be desirable for the program to regularly schedule WVU, Louisville, Pitt and UK. Those are programs the school has history with, talked about Pike to Binns, within our geographic recruiting area. Thinks this is what the fan base wants vs. scheduling UCLA, Nebraska, etc. Says he knows getting these games on the schedule are easier said than done given the state of CFB today, but he wants to do what he can do get it done.

Lots of other good stuff on this podcast. https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/papn?se...7564637778
 
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 04:09 PM by CliftonAve.)
08-19-2019 03:40 PM
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