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CG_Hawk06 Offline
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Post: #21
Italy
Bill is right. The press worked great for us UNLESS the other team broke it. Anytime they broke the press they would get into the paint and nearly score at will in there. We haven’t been great defensively since Brownell left.

You can go check the archives from the Keatts years and it’s full of posts from all of us bemoaning Keatts’ teams lack of defense against teams that could beat a press. Not to mention his hard headed inability to change it up when it was broken (Duke and UVA ring a bell?). He’s just as hard headed in his system as McGrath is with his. Not saying anything to praise or rebuke either, but to say they’re both equally system coaches. One obviously had better success rates, but they came with faults too. We seem to get rose colored glasses when it comes to the Keatts “defense”.


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08-18-2019 10:56 PM
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82hawk Online
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RE: Italy
(08-18-2019 10:56 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  Bill is right. The press worked great for us UNLESS the other team broke it. Anytime they broke the press they would get into the paint and nearly score at will in there. We haven’t been great defensively since Brownell left.

You can go check the archives from the Keatts years and it’s full of posts from all of us bemoaning Keatts’ teams lack of defense against teams that could beat a press. Not to mention his hard headed inability to change it up when it was broken (Duke and UVA ring a bell?). He’s just as hard headed in his system as McGrath is with his. Not saying anything to praise or rebuke either, but to say they’re both equally system coaches. One obviously had better success rates, but they came with faults too. We seem to get rose colored glasses when it comes to the Keatts “defense”.


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You guys have lost your minds.

Let's just look at Buzz(aka McGrath series 1) last year vs. Keatts first year with basically the same roster. Conference only for the best comparison.

Offense - Buzz 59.8 ppg last - Keatts 67.8 ppg #7
Defense Buzz 65.6 ppg #4 Keatts 65,2 ppg #2

Scoring Margin Buzz -5.4 last Keatts +2.2 #4

FG% Buzz .403 last Keatts .422 #6

Fg% defense Buzz .426 #6 Keatts .425 #3

3 pt FG% Buzz .305 #8 Keatts .306 #9

3 pt. FG% defense Buzz .333 #3 Keatts .296 #1

Steals Buzz 5.9 #3 Keatts 8.3 #1

TO Margin Buzz -.12 #5 Keatts +4.11 #1

No doubt the 3 pt. FG% on defense improved, but we gave up almost the exact same PPG both years. Our offense improved dramatically because of the pressure, the steals, the easy baskets on layups. Our 3pt FG% on offense remained almost identical as well. It was the TO margin and steals that made the difference. It was the aggressive posture we took in the press that gave the guys a swagger and confidence to win and control games. Have you forgotten the runs we would go on because of the press? Have you forgotten how loud the crowd would get when we caused TO's and got steals? The atmosphere and attitude of UNCW basketball did a 180 and now has reverted back. When is the last game you watched or attended a game where you could just FEEL we were going to dominate a team? Where our guys imposed their will on the other team? It happened once, last year, that I can remember. And that was the last Hofstra game at home. That was it since McGrath has been here.

PLEASE spare me the "well the press didn't matter that much" nonsense.
08-19-2019 05:21 AM
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70shawk Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 05:21 AM)82hawk Wrote:  You guys have lost your minds.

Let's just look at Buzz(aka McGrath series 1) last year vs. Keatts first year with basically the same roster. Conference only for the best comparison.

Offense - Buzz 59.8 ppg last - Keatts 67.8 ppg #7
Defense Buzz 65.6 ppg #4 Keatts 65,2 ppg #2

Scoring Margin Buzz -5.4 last Keatts +2.2 #4

FG% Buzz .403 last Keatts .422 #6

Fg% defense Buzz .426 #6 Keatts .425 #3

3 pt FG% Buzz .305 #8 Keatts .306 #9

3 pt. FG% defense Buzz .333 #3 Keatts .296 #1

Steals Buzz 5.9 #3 Keatts 8.3 #1

TO Margin Buzz -.12 #5 Keatts +4.11 #1

No doubt the 3 pt. FG% on defense improved, but we gave up almost the exact same PPG both years. Our offense improved dramatically because of the pressure, the steals, the easy baskets on layups. Our 3pt FG% on offense remained almost identical as well. It was the TO margin and steals that made the difference. It was the aggressive posture we took in the press that gave the guys a swagger and confidence to win and control games. Have you forgotten the runs we would go on because of the press? Have you forgotten how loud the crowd would get when we caused TO's and got steals? The atmosphere and attitude of UNCW basketball did a 180 and now has reverted back. When is the last game you watched or attended a game where you could just FEEL we were going to dominate a team? Where our guys imposed their will on the other team? It happened once, last year, that I can remember. And that was the last Hofstra game at home. That was it since McGrath has been here.

PLEASE spare me the "well the press didn't matter that much" nonsense.

Keatts was fairly criticized when he refused to adjust his defense after opposing coaches (think Tony Bennett at UVA) were willing and able to adjust their offensive game plans to deal with what they were facing. But he did come up with defensive scheme that worked with the players he had, and which led to offensive points off of that defensive scheme.

The man took a group he inherited who had known nothing but failure in the Peterson era to a tie for a regular season championship in his first year with that scheme, then took two more teams to the NCAA tournament. That defensive wasn't perfect, but he won with it.

UNCW had the NINTH WORST scoring defense in America last year. With all due respect to the glass-half-full guys on the board, think about how bad that is.

Is CB McGrath going to turn out to be Wes Miller..or Benny Moss/Buzz Peterson? How he answers the defensive question this year will probably tell the tale. Unless our defense gets a lot better - a LOT better - this will be a looooong year.

Does CB finally have his players who will now correctly implement his correctly conceived defensive scheme, when players before them could not or would not? Or will it be that much of which he 'learned to be the case' - playing with and coaching on teams perennially loaded with full-sized NBA prospects - is not the case in the CAA, and if so will he implement defensive that schemes that work with the players he has?
08-19-2019 06:48 AM
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82hawk Online
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Post: #24
RE: Italy
The only change Keatts could have made was to play zone to stop penetration and fouls. With a 4 guard set, his options were limited. His stubborness in that area is the same as McGrath. But, he at least had a defense that created a huge turnover margin differential and focused on stopping the 3. In other words, we didn't have a dominating overall defense, but we had one that won games.
08-19-2019 07:31 AM
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Seahawkhoops Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 07:31 AM)82hawk Wrote:  The only change Keatts could have made was to play zone to stop penetration and fouls. With a 4 guard set, his options were limited. His stubborness in that area is the same as McGrath. But, he at least had a defense that created a huge turnover margin differential and focused on stopping the 3. In other words, we didn't have a dominating overall defense, but we had one that won games.

He made up for his deficiencies by implementing something that worked for his teams. Something we have yet to see with CB.
08-19-2019 07:33 AM
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StillJonesing Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Italy
You guys aren't factoring in pace. Your Defensive Rating is how many points you give up per 100 possessions. It's apples to apples & these were the national ranks.

Buzz
2014....#223

Keats
2015....#140
2016....#102
2017....#217 (#2 offense)

McGrath
2018.....#332
2019.....#350
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 07:47 AM by StillJonesing.)
08-19-2019 07:44 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Italy
Buzz certainly looks better in retrospect, given that he got us out of our APR hole and set the table for the Keatts era.

But yes, objectively, Keatts was outstanding in his approach. You have to get guys to buy into a system and have it be a GOOD system that works. Even if it fails against P5's, its hard to change what you're doing midstream. There was no "Plan B" because we didn't have the bigs to change up our approach on D.

Our "Plan A" now is to play tough man-to-man D, which I get. But there has to be buy-in and the horses to make it work. And if it doesn't, there has to be a "Plan B". Captain Obvious statement, I know....
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 08:09 AM by Seahawk Nation 08.)
08-19-2019 08:09 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 07:44 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  You guys aren't factoring in pace. Your Defensive Rating is how many points you give up per 100 possessions. It's apples to apples & these were the national ranks.

Buzz
2014....#223

Keats
2015....#140
2016....#102
2017....#217 (#2 offense)

McGrath
2018.....#332
2019.....#350
And STILLJONESING ends the debate. This is Mid-Major basketball folks and we are barely Mid-Major. Keatts couldn't 'game adjust' his way out of a paper bag but he had his gimmick. His system as was said. Shooters, energy by way of press, and PACE. He couldn't fix layups vs his press or didn't want to because his players needed to play off simple momentum without confusing them. They knew who they were going into every game. There is no time to be nervous when you know your only way to win is run, gun and do it for 40 mins. There is a brilliance to knowing your limitations and still being able to succeed.

The present UNCW team is not talented enough to play CB's UNC way. Honestly, they have the perfect team to run with Kai at the PG. He's got his own limitations in the half court. Smart coaches understand what they got and put them in a position to succeed no matter what their personal preferences or pedigree for basketball is.
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 08:27 AM by HAWKING.)
08-19-2019 08:22 AM
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billthebighawksfan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Italy
Great freaking post Hawking!
08-19-2019 08:33 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 08:33 AM)billthebighawksfan Wrote:  Great freaking post Hawking!
Thanks. We all want the same thing.
08-19-2019 08:40 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 08:22 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  Honestly, they have the perfect team to run with Kai at the PG.

If you were head coach, what kind of system would you be running with the personnel we currently have in place?
08-19-2019 08:54 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 08:54 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 08:22 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  Honestly, they have the perfect team to run with Kai at the PG.

If you were head coach, what kind of system would you be running with the personnel we currently have in place?
This is an extremely young athletic team where guys can get the DR and push it without having to always find the PG. Their athleticism needs to be utilized over 94 feet to not expose their lack of experience and IQ.
As a basic defense M-M Run & Jump Press after scores but only periodically. As a rule pick up at 3/4 court and force the ball to one side quickly. In the half court switching at the 1-3 positions routinely, for example on staggers, pin downs where you TOP LOCK. Force teams to slip screens and go to their 2nd option. SCRAM switching (Triple Switch) on all Picks. It's easy if you break it down in practice. Also, I would go from 1-2-2 press (passive to chew up clock: Villanova) to 3-2 Matchup zone a 'few times' a game especially in the middle of the 4th quarter when the opponent has it going.

We must run on all stops using Single and Double Drag Screens for Kai to let him do his best Nash impersonation. (Linssen can pop) End of shot clock, spread the floor and put Skaggs/Estime in the right hand corner to use a high ball screen for Kai going to his right hand attacking a DOUBLE GAP space. Help off the corner and it's game over. The CAA All-Time leading assist guy is a Freshman who's team ranked #350/353 teams in PACE. They also had a guy named Cacok who made a living off of pick, dive, lob under Keatts until they forced him into the block last year. Think about that for a sec.
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 09:40 AM by HAWKING.)
08-19-2019 09:21 AM
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Seahawk Nation 08 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Italy
Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
08-19-2019 09:34 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
Basically more switching, more pressure and an emphasis on transition basketball so we try to stay out of 1/2 court basketball where defenses can set up.
08-19-2019 09:40 AM
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82hawk Online
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Post: #35
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 09:40 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
Basically more switching, more pressure and an emphasis on transition basketball so we try to stay out of 1/2 court basketball where defenses can set up.

Exactly. And the Lakers used Cacok in the exact same manner as Keatts did. It was beautiful to watch...both times.
08-19-2019 10:04 AM
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Seahawkhoops Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 10:04 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:40 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
Basically more switching, more pressure and an emphasis on transition basketball so we try to stay out of 1/2 court basketball where defenses can set up.

Exactly. And the Lakers used Cacok in the exact same manner as Keatts did. It was beautiful to watch...both times.
So what is it, is it stubbornness to not adjust, or is it that he just doesn't recognize it. Both equally as bad but just curious as to your thoughts.
08-19-2019 10:25 AM
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StillJonesing Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Italy
If you guys only have 8 or 9 players and 2 or 3 legit bigs I don't think press and man to man are what you would want your team identity to be. If you speed teams up that's more possessions and more possessions is more chances to foul #1.

More possessions will also will be more taxing on your players (gas outs) and give teams with more talent more bites at the apple to out play you which I think is the biggest problem for most teams. That's why it's hard to play a Duke or Virginia if you play them fast because they have more opportunity for talent to win out in more possessions. Teams with more depth also have more opportunity for their back ups to beat your gassed players.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...s-per-game

Virginia plays at one of the slowest paces in the nation. I think that's actually the best way to max your best talent. Similar to the old Princeton teams that sat on the ball. Duke is kind of the counter though. They usually have a short 7 or 8 man rotation and still manage to play pretty fast. They are also so talented that you probably want them out there with more opportunities( possessions) even if they are a little gassed. Even though they don't go more than 7 or 8 deep they still have good players beyond that they can play in a pinch if they get into foul trouble.
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2019 11:11 AM by StillJonesing.)
08-19-2019 11:05 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 10:25 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 10:04 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:40 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
Basically more switching, more pressure and an emphasis on transition basketball so we try to stay out of 1/2 court basketball where defenses can set up.

Exactly. And the Lakers used Cacok in the exact same manner as Keatts did. It was beautiful to watch...both times.
So what is it, is it stubbornness to not adjust, or is it that he just doesn't recognize it. Both equally as bad but just curious as to your thoughts.
We only teach what we know. 3rd year HC.
08-19-2019 11:05 AM
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HAWKING Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 11:05 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  If you guys only have 8 or 9 players and 2 or 3 legit bigs I don't think press and man to man are what you would want your team identity to be. If you speed teams up that's more possessions and more possessions is more chances to foul #1.

More possessions will also will be more taxing on your players (gas outs) and give teams with more talent more bites at the apple to out play you which I think is the biggest problem for most teams. That's why it's hard to play a Duke or Virginia if you play them fast because they have more opportunity for talent to win out in more possessions. Teams with more depth also have more opportunity for their back ups to beat your gassed players.

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...s-per-game

Virginia plays at one of the slowest paces in the nation. I think that's actually the best way to max your best talent. Similar to the old Princeton teams that sat on the ball. Duke is kind of the counter though. They usually have a short 7 or 8 man rotation and still manage to play pretty fast. They are also so talented that you probably want them out there with more opportunities( possessions) even if they are a little gassed. Even though they don't go more than 7 or 8 deep they still have good players beyond that they can if they get into foul trouble.
We don't play Duke or Virginia. There are no comparable teams in the CAA. M-M and changing up defenses to increase possessions is key. There is also momentum/flow to consider which cannot easily be measured by analytics.
08-19-2019 11:13 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Italy
(08-19-2019 11:05 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 10:25 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 10:04 AM)82hawk Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:40 AM)HAWKING Wrote:  
(08-19-2019 09:34 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Fascinating stuff HAWKING. I only understood about 60 % of what you stated above, but it looks great to me. lol.

Thanks!
Basically more switching, more pressure and an emphasis on transition basketball so we try to stay out of 1/2 court basketball where defenses can set up.

Exactly. And the Lakers used Cacok in the exact same manner as Keatts did. It was beautiful to watch...both times.
So what is it, is it stubbornness to not adjust, or is it that he just doesn't recognize it. Both equally as bad but just curious as to your thoughts.
We only teach what we know. 3rd year HC.

Exactly. McGrath doesnt know anyway but the UNC way. That is standard among UNC coaching tree hires throughout college basketball and was my biggest concern with McGrath. Hopefully he will learn to be open to things outside of the box a la Wes Miller
08-19-2019 11:14 AM
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