Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.



This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

An even better stat was how many of these games were played on the road vs home.

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

OK, what about independents before 1993?

(08-08-2019 09:27 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

OK, what about independents before 1993?

Right. And which independents during that period would you count as "major"?

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

(08-08-2019 10:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 09:27 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

OK, what about independents before 1993?

Right. And which independents during that period would you count as "major"?

I think a stat like this only makes sense in the BCS and Playoff era, meaning 2004 onward.

One thing for sure.... Tulane has played a lot of football for 126 years....

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Clemson won a national championship before Florida State.
Maryland won a national championship before Florida State.

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Yes, and they actually started out with an Orange Bowl tie-in.

(08-09-2019 06:37 AM)chess Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Clemson won a national championship before Florida State.
Maryland won a national championship before Florida State.

So did BYU.

ACC was, on a perception basis in football, on a par with the WAC in the 70s and 80s.

Of course in those days football didn't dominate the revenue stream. In the early 90s (with FSU), the ACC had the biggest TV contract once the CFA broke up. Of course, I think it was about $35 million a year-for all the teams combined.

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:22 PM)TTT Wrote:  Of all current G5 schools...who has the highest winning % vs current P5's?

All-time? Boise State.



This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

Wow. Very telling data. And, to think, there are those pushing for an automatic bid for one of these teams annually in an expanded playoff. An overwhelming majority clearly show that they have historically been unable to compete with the P5 on the field, and for the few that have a close W/L record, haven't been around long enough to build their reputation and/or relationships with the P5.

This only hammers home the point that there already is a division within FBS. It has different group names (Power 5 vs. Group of 5), vastly different revenue streams, noticeable gaps in athletic spending and budgets, changes in fan support and - most importantly - the noticeable difference in historical affiliations. As of right now, there is an "equal" path to the CFP, but everyone knows with four spots that no G5 team will ever earn positioning in it. Even with eight spots (assuming there are three wild cards), it will be incredibly difficult to displace big name programs from the power conferences for an undefeated, or one-loss, second-level football program.

(08-09-2019 07:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-09-2019 06:37 AM)chess Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Clemson won a national championship before Florida State.
Maryland won a national championship before Florida State.

So did BYU.

ACC was, on a perception basis in football, on a par with the WAC in the 70s and 80s.

In the 70s, the WAC had Arizona, Arizona State, BYU, Utah, New Mexico, Wyoming, Colorado State, and UTEP. They were what Aresco would call "P6."

I'd argue that the ACC and the Metro were in a similar position overall to the WAC. But the ACC had superior academic institutions, made geographic sense, and the core schools were all on the same page. So they took Georgia Tech and eventually FSU from the Metro.

(08-09-2019 06:37 AM)chess Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 06:35 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-07-2019 09:34 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  All-time? Boise State.

This counts ND as a P5 and the other indies as G5. If you factor ties into the winning percentage as half-wins like the NFL, it changes the rankings slightly, but Boise is still on top. All G5 schools have a losing record against P5 schools though.

Data from CFB Data Warehouse and Sports Reference.

It would be complicated, but... would be interesting to see a list that takes into account where a school was at the time

Examples: Houston, Rice, and SMU records should not count years when they were in the SWC. Utah, Arizona, and Arizona State should be on the list for years before they joined the Pac, TCU for years between the SWC and the Big 12, etc., and for example, a 1988 game between Utah and SDSU shouldn't be on this list because both were in the WAC then, so it's not a G5 vs. P5 game for SDSU.

Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Clemson won a national championship before Florida State.
Maryland won a national championship before Florida State.

OK, let's look at national championships, starting with the first year of the ACC, 1953 (the year Maryland won), and going through 1991, the last season before Florida State. #1 teams in AP and/or coaches' final poll, 1953-1991.

ACC -- 3

Big East -- 1 (Miami in 1991, the first season of Big East football)

Big 8 -- 8

Big Ten -- 5

Independents -- 10

Pac-8/10 -- 7

SEC -- 9

SWC -- 3

WAC -- 1

(08-09-2019 08:43 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(08-09-2019 07:59 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-09-2019 06:37 AM)chess Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-08-2019 10:20 PM)esayem Wrote:  Ehh, conferences didn’t matter as much then. BYU and the Arizona schools were much more powerful than some teams in what you would call a power conference and want to discount. I think the early WAC belongs in that group with the SWC and Pac.

Plus Army and Navy were legit dynasties.

Was the ACC a power conference before Florida State joined?

Clemson won a national championship before Florida State.
Maryland won a national championship before Florida State.

So did BYU.

ACC was, on a perception basis in football, on a par with the WAC in the 70s and 80s.

In the 70s, the WAC had Arizona, Arizona State, BYU, Utah, New Mexico, Wyoming, Colorado State, and UTEP. They were what Aresco would call "P6."

I'd argue that the ACC and the Metro were in a similar position overall to the WAC. But the ACC had superior academic institutions, made geographic sense, and the core schools were all on the same page. So they took Georgia Tech and eventually FSU from the Metro.

The ACC was (still is) the premier basketball conference.

Overall, the ACC was considered at the major (power) level. Newspapers didn't make a distinction for different sports like you guys are talking about. There were majors and mid-majors, and in Olympic sports like basketball, there were small conferences (sacrificial lambs) that started popping up to get thumped in the 1st round of The Big Dance.

I posted articles here before that clarified this. Just go look at old football previews; the ACC is ALWAYS listed alongside the Big Ten and SEC.

From 1985:

Coach Ray Perkins, preparing his Alabama team for tonight's Aloha Bowl, said he would like to see the four major New Year's Day bowls serve as first-round games leading to a "College Super Bowl."The eight teams eligible for the national title would include the champions from six major conferences -- Big Ten, Pac-10, Big Eight, Atlantic Coast, Southwest and Southeastern -- and the two highest-ranked independents or "non-major" conference teams.

(08-09-2019 02:12 PM)esayem Wrote:  From 1985:

Coach Ray Perkins, preparing his Alabama team for tonight's Aloha Bowl, said he would like to see the four major New Year's Day bowls serve as first-round games leading to a "College Super Bowl."The eight teams eligible for the national title would include the champions from six major conferences -- Big Ten, Pac-10, Big Eight, Atlantic Coast, Southwest and Southeastern -- and the two highest-ranked independents or "non-major" conference teams.

So an 8 team playoff that included auto-bids for the major conference champs and the highest ranked teams not among those conference was something Alabama wanted in 1985?