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Will the Big East expand after UConn?
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BraveKnight Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha
08-06-2019 04:38 PM
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HuskyU Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
08-06-2019 05:04 PM
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BraveKnight Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 05:04 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
It vanished from your vocabulary as fast as the Civil ConFLiCT did after the game in 2016.
08-06-2019 05:08 PM
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HuskyU Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 05:08 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:04 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
It vanished from your vocabulary as fast as the Civil ConFLiCT did after the game in 2016.

UCONN Football is 2-4 all-time vs UCF. One of our best records vs AAC opponents. Ouch.
08-06-2019 05:56 PM
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BraveKnight Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 05:56 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:08 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:04 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
It vanished from your vocabulary as fast as the Civil ConFLiCT did after the game in 2016.

UCONN Football is 2-4 all-time vs UCF. One of our best records vs AAC opponents. Ouch.
Touche....
08-06-2019 06:27 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 03:49 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I would argue that the conferences (AAC and A10) are not high major, but there are programs within them that are (i.e. Cincinnati, VCU, Memphis, Dayton, Wichita State, Houston, Davidson, etc.). I don't think anyone can argue programs like ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, etc. are "high-major".

A reasonable assessment. I rate "high-major programs" by individual programs and not league affiliation. It is why I always argued Xavier was a high-major program for many years (even before it was in the A10). The AAC will have seven high-majors after UConn leaves: Cincy, Houston, Memphis, Temple, Wichita, Tulsa and SMU. The A10 has at least five or six high-majors (Saint Louis, VCU, Davidson, Dayton, Saint Joe's, Rhode Island and UMass; maybe one or two others). Gonzaga is a high major. There are multiple Mountain West programs that are high-major (UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State, for example). Obviously, some of this is subjective and there is no "wrong or right."

I consider all 10 BE programs "high-majors," which is one reason I rate the BE a "power basketball conference."

Agree fully that ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, are not high-majors.
08-06-2019 07:57 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
My choices (ranked) for No. 12 in the Big East:

1. Saint Louis

2. Dayton

3. UMass

4. VCU
08-06-2019 08:00 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 05:08 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:04 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
It vanished from your vocabulary as fast as the Civil ConFLiCT did after the game in 2016.

The ConFLiCT lives on as the AAC's most famous annual rivalry game, and I won't be told otherwise.
08-06-2019 08:17 PM
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BraveKnight Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 08:17 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:08 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 05:04 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 04:38 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:57 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  The high majors are the P5 + Big East+ certain G5's + Gonzaga.
Oh, so you dropping the "G4" moniker since you moved to the BE? I see how it is haha

#Woke
It vanished from your vocabulary as fast as the Civil ConFLiCT did after the game in 2016.

The ConFLiCT lives on as the nation's most famous annual rivalry game, and I won't be told otherwise.
FIFY
08-06-2019 08:39 PM
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BraveKnight Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 07:57 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:49 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I would argue that the conferences (AAC and A10) are not high major, but there are programs within them that are (i.e. Cincinnati, VCU, Memphis, Dayton, Wichita State, Houston, Davidson, etc.). I don't think anyone can argue programs like ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, etc. are "high-major".

A reasonable assessment. I rate "high-major programs" by individual programs and not league affiliation. It is why I always argued Xavier was a high-major program for many years (even before it was in the A10). The AAC will have seven high-majors after UConn leaves: Cincy, Houston, Memphis, Temple, Wichita, Tulsa and SMU. The A10 has at least five or six high-majors (Saint Louis, VCU, Davidson, Dayton, Saint Joe's, Rhode Island and UMass; maybe one or two others). Gonzaga is a high major. There are multiple Mountain West programs that are high-major (UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State, for example). Obviously, some of this is subjective and there is no "wrong or right."

I consider all 10 BE programs "high-majors," which is one reason I rate the BE a "power basketball conference."

Agree fully that ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, are not high-majors.
What does a school have to accomplish in order to be a "high major" according to you? A certain number of NCAA appearances? Reaching the final four? Just curious.
08-06-2019 08:41 PM
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scoscox Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
Bill I appreciate your ranking of the Pete gillen era muskies as high major. The gillen era often gets overlooked but he produced some of the all time greats (Xavier’s only two lottery picks), had some of the best teams, and got to the tournament almost every year after inheriting a program that only had two tournament appearances all time before he arrived
08-06-2019 09:55 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 08:41 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 07:57 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 03:49 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I would argue that the conferences (AAC and A10) are not high major, but there are programs within them that are (i.e. Cincinnati, VCU, Memphis, Dayton, Wichita State, Houston, Davidson, etc.). I don't think anyone can argue programs like ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, etc. are "high-major".

A reasonable assessment. I rate "high-major programs" by individual programs and not league affiliation. It is why I always argued Xavier was a high-major program for many years (even before it was in the A10). The AAC will have seven high-majors after UConn leaves: Cincy, Houston, Memphis, Temple, Wichita, Tulsa and SMU. The A10 has at least five or six high-majors (Saint Louis, VCU, Davidson, Dayton, Saint Joe's, Rhode Island and UMass; maybe one or two others). Gonzaga is a high major. There are multiple Mountain West programs that are high-major (UNLV, New Mexico, San Diego State, for example). Obviously, some of this is subjective and there is no "wrong or right."

I consider all 10 BE programs "high-majors," which is one reason I rate the BE a "power basketball conference."

Agree fully that ECU, Tulane, Fordham, LaSalle, are not high-majors.
What does a school have to accomplish in order to be a "high major" according to you? A certain number of NCAA appearances? Reaching the final four? Just curious.

Here is how I see it, BKnight (many might disagree).

I rate a college basketball program as “high-major” based on its meeting at least 10 of the following 17 metrics:

The ability to average at least 8,500 (and ideally 10,000) fans or more per home game for a season — and multiple seasons of having done so.

A history with at least two head coaches (and preferably three) with national notoriety/respect

A history with a handful of top 25 recruiting classes

Ideally, a Final Four appearance. If not, at least an Elite 8.

Three or more Sweet 16s

At least 15 (and preferably 20) NCAA tourney appearances

At least one NIT Final Four

At least 1,300 all-time wins

Having produced at least 10 NBA players of note

Having produced at least one all-time Top 100 NBA player

The resources to pay a coach $1.5 million or more annually

At least 15 seasons of 25 wins or more

At least a .500 record all-time vs. high-major foes

The ability to generate at least $5 million in annual revenue

A program that has produced at least two coaches of note (assistant or head) that moved on to another high-major program and at which the coaches fared well

At least one All-American (first, second or third team)

At least three honorable mention All-Americans
08-06-2019 10:50 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-06-2019 09:55 PM)scoscox Wrote:  Bill I appreciate your ranking of the Pete gillen era muskies as high major. The gillen era often gets overlooked but he produced some of the all time greats (Xavier’s only two lottery picks), had some of the best teams, and got to the tournament almost every year after inheriting a program that only had two tournament appearances all time before he arrived

The Midwestern Collegiate in its heyday (and I recall those days fairly well, scoscox) had some high-major programs even though the league was not "high-major" from top to bottom. Xavier was one of the high-majors in the MCC and has been outstanding ever since. I recall some folks still rating Xavier as a "mid-major" when it was in the Atlantic 10. That was absurd. These are the same people who today (probably not many but some) might argue that because Gonzaga is a member of a mid-major league (true), the Zag program can be characterized as no more than "major" and not a high-major program. I find that baffling. Gonzaga is high-major in every respect except its league affiliation.

Xavier earned its way into a power hoops league. Gonzaga has earned that right, too, but is hurt by geography.
08-06-2019 11:05 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU
08-10-2019 05:38 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-10-2019 05:38 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU

A reasonable prediction.
08-10-2019 08:43 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-10-2019 08:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 05:38 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU

A reasonable prediction.

I'm not so sure. A year ago, heck - 2 months ago, I was adamant that SLU would be #11, if the BE ever expanded (unless of course UConn changed course, which ultimately happened). However, now that UConn is in tow, I would actually rank VCU now as the likeliest candidate. While UConn had maintained associations with many BE schools, their admittance allows for non-Private institutions to have a pathway into the conference. VCU would also give UConn a peer institution (large public school) within the league.

BUT, from 2020 until 2024/2025, the Big East will be able to accumulate over a decade of data on both the round-robin (all twelve seasons) and about five seasons worth of data on the twenty-game season. Like Stever suggests, it is entirely possible that the power conferences learn that the 20-game conference format is not optimal for births/seeds in the tournament. If it moves away from 20 games, and the Big East has eleven teams, it would actually make more sense to add a team for balancing purposes. Under this move, it would actually make sense to add a Saint Louis to give every member a travel member as follows:

Creighton-St. Louis
Marquette-DePaul
Butler-Xavier
Villanova-Georgetown
St. John's-Seton Hall
UConn-Providence
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2019 11:59 AM by GoldenWarrior11.)
08-11-2019 11:58 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-11-2019 11:58 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 08:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 05:38 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU

A reasonable prediction.

I'm not so sure. A year ago, heck - 2 months ago, I was adamant that SLU would be #11, if the BE ever expanded (unless of course UConn changed course, which ultimately happened). However, now that UConn is in tow, I would actually rank VCU now as the likeliest candidate. While UConn had maintained associations with many BE schools, their admittance allows for non-Private institutions to have a pathway into the conference. VCU would also give UConn a peer institution (large public school) within the league.

BUT, from 2020 until 2024/2025, the Big East will be able to accumulate over a decade of data on both the round-robin (all twelve seasons) and about five seasons worth of data on the twenty-game season. Like Stever suggests, it is entirely possible that the power conferences learn that the 20-game conference format is not optimal for births/seeds in the tournament. If it moves away from 20 games, and the Big East has eleven teams, it would actually make more sense to add a team for balancing purposes. Under this move, it would actually make sense to add a Saint Louis to give every member a travel member as follows:

Creighton-St. Louis
Marquette-DePaul
Butler-Xavier
Villanova-Georgetown
St. John's-Seton Hall
UConn-Providence

My biggest problem with VCU is that they're a definite little-brother program in what's solidly ACC-land, and I think that's really bad for perception. Despite VCU being the more successful program, I actually think that SLU has the better shot at establishing itself as a pseudo-equal to its nearby state school competition, and being on the border of Missouri/Illinois which is also the border of B1G/SEC territory helps because they take up something of a neutral space.
08-11-2019 01:03 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-11-2019 01:03 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 11:58 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 08:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 05:38 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU

A reasonable prediction.

I'm not so sure. A year ago, heck - 2 months ago, I was adamant that SLU would be #11, if the BE ever expanded (unless of course UConn changed course, which ultimately happened). However, now that UConn is in tow, I would actually rank VCU now as the likeliest candidate. While UConn had maintained associations with many BE schools, their admittance allows for non-Private institutions to have a pathway into the conference. VCU would also give UConn a peer institution (large public school) within the league.

BUT, from 2020 until 2024/2025, the Big East will be able to accumulate over a decade of data on both the round-robin (all twelve seasons) and about five seasons worth of data on the twenty-game season. Like Stever suggests, it is entirely possible that the power conferences learn that the 20-game conference format is not optimal for births/seeds in the tournament. If it moves away from 20 games, and the Big East has eleven teams, it would actually make more sense to add a team for balancing purposes. Under this move, it would actually make sense to add a Saint Louis to give every member a travel member as follows:

Creighton-St. Louis
Marquette-DePaul
Butler-Xavier
Villanova-Georgetown
St. John's-Seton Hall
UConn-Providence

My biggest problem with VCU is that they're a definite little-brother program in what's solidly ACC-land, and I think that's really bad for perception. Despite VCU being the more successful program, I actually think that SLU has the better shot at establishing itself as a pseudo-equal to its nearby state school competition, and being on the border of Missouri/Illinois which is also the border of B1G/SEC territory helps because they take up something of a neutral space.

Agreed with both points. I guess my long-term concern for the league's membership would be having UConn as the only public school in the conference. Would they desire a fellow public school for perception/academic reasons? Or would they be content being the only public institution (even after a hypothetical SLU addition)?
08-11-2019 02:30 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-11-2019 02:30 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 01:03 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 11:58 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 08:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 05:38 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I think the BE will stay put for now but will expand to 12 when negotiations start for the next contract. number 12 will be SLU

A reasonable prediction.

I'm not so sure. A year ago, heck - 2 months ago, I was adamant that SLU would be #11, if the BE ever expanded (unless of course UConn changed course, which ultimately happened). However, now that UConn is in tow, I would actually rank VCU now as the likeliest candidate. While UConn had maintained associations with many BE schools, their admittance allows for non-Private institutions to have a pathway into the conference. VCU would also give UConn a peer institution (large public school) within the league.

BUT, from 2020 until 2024/2025, the Big East will be able to accumulate over a decade of data on both the round-robin (all twelve seasons) and about five seasons worth of data on the twenty-game season. Like Stever suggests, it is entirely possible that the power conferences learn that the 20-game conference format is not optimal for births/seeds in the tournament. If it moves away from 20 games, and the Big East has eleven teams, it would actually make more sense to add a team for balancing purposes. Under this move, it would actually make sense to add a Saint Louis to give every member a travel member as follows:

Creighton-St. Louis
Marquette-DePaul
Butler-Xavier
Villanova-Georgetown
St. John's-Seton Hall
UConn-Providence

My biggest problem with VCU is that they're a definite little-brother program in what's solidly ACC-land, and I think that's really bad for perception. Despite VCU being the more successful program, I actually think that SLU has the better shot at establishing itself as a pseudo-equal to its nearby state school competition, and being on the border of Missouri/Illinois which is also the border of B1G/SEC territory helps because they take up something of a neutral space.

Agreed with both points. I guess my long-term concern for the league's membership would be having UConn as the only public school in the conference. Would they desire a fellow public school for perception/academic reasons? Or would they be content being the only public institution (even after a hypothetical SLU addition)?

I mean, I can't think of any real history that UConn has with VCU, and I think the all-private thing matters more to the fans than the actual administrators. Any consideration of further expansion has to wait until 2025 to see how the Big 12 thing shakes out, not only on the extreme off-chance that a Big 12 program shakes loose but also to see if the AAC suffers any defections and, if they do, whether certain AAC members might not be thrilled with a conference being rebuilt around them. However, if you're going to dip into the A10 I'd rather chase a Dayton or SLU, or (completely serious) St Bonaventure or Buffalo (MAC, obviously) than make a move into Virginia.
08-11-2019 04:26 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Will the Big East expand after UConn?
(08-11-2019 04:26 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 02:30 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 01:03 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 11:58 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 08:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A reasonable prediction.

I'm not so sure. A year ago, heck - 2 months ago, I was adamant that SLU would be #11, if the BE ever expanded (unless of course UConn changed course, which ultimately happened). However, now that UConn is in tow, I would actually rank VCU now as the likeliest candidate. While UConn had maintained associations with many BE schools, their admittance allows for non-Private institutions to have a pathway into the conference. VCU would also give UConn a peer institution (large public school) within the league.

BUT, from 2020 until 2024/2025, the Big East will be able to accumulate over a decade of data on both the round-robin (all twelve seasons) and about five seasons worth of data on the twenty-game season. Like Stever suggests, it is entirely possible that the power conferences learn that the 20-game conference format is not optimal for births/seeds in the tournament. If it moves away from 20 games, and the Big East has eleven teams, it would actually make more sense to add a team for balancing purposes. Under this move, it would actually make sense to add a Saint Louis to give every member a travel member as follows:

Creighton-St. Louis
Marquette-DePaul
Butler-Xavier
Villanova-Georgetown
St. John's-Seton Hall
UConn-Providence

My biggest problem with VCU is that they're a definite little-brother program in what's solidly ACC-land, and I think that's really bad for perception. Despite VCU being the more successful program, I actually think that SLU has the better shot at establishing itself as a pseudo-equal to its nearby state school competition, and being on the border of Missouri/Illinois which is also the border of B1G/SEC territory helps because they take up something of a neutral space.

Agreed with both points. I guess my long-term concern for the league's membership would be having UConn as the only public school in the conference. Would they desire a fellow public school for perception/academic reasons? Or would they be content being the only public institution (even after a hypothetical SLU addition)?

I mean, I can't think of any real history that UConn has with VCU, and I think the all-private thing matters more to the fans than the actual administrators. Any consideration of further expansion has to wait until 2025 to see how the Big 12 thing shakes out, not only on the extreme off-chance that a Big 12 program shakes loose but also to see if the AAC suffers any defections and, if they do, whether certain AAC members might not be thrilled with a conference being rebuilt around them. However, if you're going to dip into the A10 I'd rather chase a Dayton or SLU, or (completely serious) St Bonaventure or Buffalo (MAC, obviously) than make a move into Virginia.


VCU would be a very solid add but an even better peer institute (as GW11 notes) might be UMass (which pairs nicely with UConn on many levels).

My top choice is Saint Louis.
08-11-2019 05:56 PM
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