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Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
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Stugray2 Online
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Post: #21
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-05-2019 11:55 AM)Wedge Wrote:  P5 programs, or anyone else, can already take their football programs outside the NCAA. Many schools already have a sport or two that isn't under the NCAA umbrella -- rugby is one example. There would be a few complications for football, such as:

1) Either entire conferences would need to do it, or a school would have to find a new conference affiliation for all of its other sports. The Big Ten isn't going to let Ohio State remain a member if the Buckeyes withdraw their football program from the conference.

2) There would have to be a critical mass of schools starting this new non-NCAA affiliation all at once, so that there's a large enough pool of opponents for scheduling.

3) Also, if the breakaway group includes only P5 programs, or only a subset of P5, there will be the problem of not enough easy wins to go around for every program whose spoiled fans demand 9 or more wins every year and won't accept regularly going 5-7 or worse vs. a no-cupcake schedule.

4) Some busy people will have to spend a lot of time and energy away from their real jobs to set up this new organization that will administer non-NCAA college football. That includes some new group to make rules and enforce them, unless this is going to be the wild wild west with no restrictions on money or academics or whether the football players are students at the university whose uniform they wear.

These "non-profits" always pay people big bucks to do this "voluntary" work. You can make a lot of money doing non-profit work, and many have gotten very wealthy doing so. Why would this be different?
08-09-2019 12:00 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #22
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 10:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(08-07-2019 08:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 08:11 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m all for divesting any say by the NCAA on the affairs of college football. The new governing body would require a certain number of games among member institutions and up to a certain number of games against NCAA Schools. The NCAA would be powerless to prohibit Toledo from playing Purdue, etc.

Note that I didn't say college football. I said FBS football. I don't have a problem with schools opting to play under the NCAA at the FCS level or below, where they can have a lower level of scholarships and a championship tournament. This would possibly mean that schools now in FBS wouldn't be able to play FCS opponents any more. That just means more body bag payday opportunities for budget strapped FBS teams.

I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.

I think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

The G5 and FCS won’t stand for the NCAA banning them from play ongoing P5 schools because they need the revenue from body bag games. This would be a case of the constituents forcing the NCAA’s hand on a policy.

Frankly, the only thing the NCAA is good for is skimming off tournament money. There enforcement wing has proven to be an utter joke, rife with inconsistency and outmoded for this day and age. Big dollar college sports require a different set of parameters than women’s field hockey and men’s tennis.
08-11-2019 08:53 AM
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Post: #23
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?
08-12-2019 12:16 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.
08-12-2019 12:58 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

That makes it sound like an "alternative governance structure" just for FBS football is some kind of big deal. With a tiny fraction of the schools in the NCAA, relaxed restrictions on payments to athletes, possibly relaxed eligibility standards, and no post season tournaments to run, the administrative demands of any new football governing body would be miniscule.

Why invite trouble by trying to kill the NCAA?
08-12-2019 07:44 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-08-2019 11:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 11:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 11:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 10:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-08-2019 09:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I understand what you’re saying here. What I imagine happening here is the P5 forming their own governing body while everyone else in FBS gets merged into FCS. The new body likely mandates 10 games among the P5 but would allow schools to schedule 2 NCAA FCS games as a pre-season.

The NCAA would really have no choice but to allow it because the schools need the pay day cash to operate.

Would the NCAA accommodate the breakaway group that easily?

On the one hand, the NCAA might want to compromise in order to keep the P5 schools in the NCAA basketball tournament, because the NCAA would have to cut away nearly all its bureaucracy if it lost the $800 million/year it takes in from March Madness. On the other hand, if the P5 succeeds in forming this new organization, then once they have gone to the trouble of setting up their new bureaucracy, why limit it to football?

Think about where the money is. The P5 already keeps almost all the money from the CFP. There's some more money to be made there, but their new organization would get a much bigger pile of cash (compared to what they have now) by starting their own basketball tournaments and keeping the lion's share of those huge TV contracts. They wouldn't have to make it a P5-only tournament; they could keep the Cinderella appeal by inviting about 20 NCAA teams to their tournament, or invite no-football conferences like the Big East to join the new organization founded by the P5. Think of the 10 or 20 best non-P5 basketball teams, and ask if they would rather compete in the tournament that has Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc., or the tournament that has no P5 teams. Everyone knows the answer to that.

It would be a huge mess for the NCAA. They have become so dependent on March Madness as their almost-exclusive source of funding that they would be in chaos without it. If the NCAA ever lost both the P5 and March Madness, the NCAA would become a shadow of what it is today.

So, IMO the NCAA would figure out that a P5 departure, even if it starts as a football-only thing, likely means an eventual end to the vast majority of the NCAA's revenue and power. They would do what they could to stop it, and if they couldn't stop it, then they would do anything they could to make things more difficult, and do nothing to cooperate with the P5.

Joining was voluntary. Leaving will be as well.

Right, anyone can leave voluntarily. But if the question is whether the NCAA will cooperate with a breakaway that will lead to the NCAA's power diminishing to about the level of the NAIA, the answer is no.

The thieving bastards don't need a 1 billion dollar endowment. They keep promoting FCS schools to keep those who are feeding off of the P schools beholden. If NCAA basketball faces a case like OU/UGA it's all over for the NCAA. We just need someone appointed to make sure that the Billion dollars in endowments are divided fairly between those departing and those remaining.

There is no theft taking place. When you willingly give someone the money they aren't stealing it.

When the SEC was named a defendant in the cost of attendance case and the concussion case and financial settlements were reached defendant SEC and member institutions didn't write any checks because defendant SEC and member institutions had willingly instructed NCAA to skim money for various purposes including building a large cash reserve that was used to pay their debt to the plaintiffs.
08-12-2019 11:26 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 12:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.

Unlike in the past with the I-A/I-AA split the amount of hoops money flowing to the Big Sky or OVC is barely even peanuts in the overall revenue picture.

Most of it goes to fund NCAA programs, keep dues low, and build a large cash reserve which has been used to pay off lawsuits the P5 have been defendants in.
08-12-2019 11:29 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 11:29 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.

Unlike in the past with the I-A/I-AA split the amount of hoops money flowing to the Big Sky or OVC is barely even peanuts in the overall revenue picture.

Most of it goes to fund NCAA programs, keep dues low, and build a large cash reserve which has been used to pay off lawsuits the P5 have been defendants in.

Right, it's not about the mid-major or low-major conferences taking big shares of the basketball money, it's about the NCAA hoarding the money. Contrast the NCAA's control of March Madness money with the CFP. There's no multi billion dollar CFP cash reserve funded with money skimmed off the top of CFP media revenue. The net CFP revenue is distributed to conferences and schools, unlike March Madness where the NCAA only distributes a portion to conferences and even then does it over a six-year period.

The lure of starting a new basketball tournament would be distributing nearly all of the revenue out to conferences and schools.

I'm skeptical that university presidents have athletic breakaway ideas anywhere near the top of their priority list, so it may never happen. The point is that if it did happen, the money to be made is more in basketball than in football where the big boys already are keeping the bulk of the loot.
08-12-2019 11:48 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 11:48 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 11:29 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-11-2019 08:53 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  think the NCAA would have no choice but to accommodate the move. They absolutely don’t want to lose the P5 in basketball because that is where the NCAA’s bread and butter is so the compromise to keep from losing them entirely is to let the P5 do whatever they want in football.

But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.

Unlike in the past with the I-A/I-AA split the amount of hoops money flowing to the Big Sky or OVC is barely even peanuts in the overall revenue picture.

Most of it goes to fund NCAA programs, keep dues low, and build a large cash reserve which has been used to pay off lawsuits the P5 have been defendants in.

Right, it's not about the mid-major or low-major conferences taking big shares of the basketball money, it's about the NCAA hoarding the money. Contrast the NCAA's control of March Madness money with the CFP. There's no multi billion dollar CFP cash reserve funded with money skimmed off the top of CFP media revenue. The net CFP revenue is distributed to conferences and schools, unlike March Madness where the NCAA only distributes a portion to conferences and even then does it over a six-year period.

The lure of starting a new basketball tournament would be distributing nearly all of the revenue out to conferences and schools.

I'm skeptical that university presidents have athletic breakaway ideas anywhere near the top of their priority list, so it may never happen. The point is that if it did happen, the money to be made is more in basketball than in football where the big boys already are keeping the bulk of the loot.

The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.
08-12-2019 02:52 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 11:48 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 11:29 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  But since the bulk of the money that the P5 is not already getting is in basketball, why would the P5 want to set up an alternative governance structure to the NCAA while at the same time being nice and generous and not touching the bulk of the money they are not already getting?

Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.

Unlike in the past with the I-A/I-AA split the amount of hoops money flowing to the Big Sky or OVC is barely even peanuts in the overall revenue picture.

Most of it goes to fund NCAA programs, keep dues low, and build a large cash reserve which has been used to pay off lawsuits the P5 have been defendants in.

Right, it's not about the mid-major or low-major conferences taking big shares of the basketball money, it's about the NCAA hoarding the money. Contrast the NCAA's control of March Madness money with the CFP. There's no multi billion dollar CFP cash reserve funded with money skimmed off the top of CFP media revenue. The net CFP revenue is distributed to conferences and schools, unlike March Madness where the NCAA only distributes a portion to conferences and even then does it over a six-year period.

The lure of starting a new basketball tournament would be distributing nearly all of the revenue out to conferences and schools.

I'm skeptical that university presidents have athletic breakaway ideas anywhere near the top of their priority list, so it may never happen. The point is that if it did happen, the money to be made is more in basketball than in football where the big boys already are keeping the bulk of the loot.

The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

As a % of share against other participants? Yeah. Against the total amount the NCAA holds for 6 years? It's peanuts. It's a big bureaucratic scam by the NCAA.
08-12-2019 03:06 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 03:06 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 11:48 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 11:29 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 12:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Exactly.

In the last 8 years of the current March Madness TV deal (2025-2032 tournaments), CBS and Turner will pay the NCAA an average of $1.1 billion per year. That's 1.1 billion-with-a-B. $1,100,000,000 paid every year. That's just TV revenue and doesn't even include the corporate sponsorships and ticket sales from the tournament.

Just to make the math easy, let's assume that net revenue from sponsorships and ticket sales would exactly cover overhead for the tournament and for the P5's new organization (though the sponsorships and ticket revenue are probably more). Let's also assume that a new tournament run by the P5 group would include the best non-P5 teams (in an earlier comment, I suggested 20 non-P5 teams) and get a TV contract for the same money the NCAA will get in the last 8 years of the current deal.

The P5 currently takes about 80% of the revenue paid out from the six CFP bowls plus the title game. Let's assume that, because of the 20 or so non-P5 teams in the basketball tournament, along with giving more revenue to teams that progress further in the tournament than to teams that don't, the P5 ends up with about two-thirds of $1.1 billion/year in basketball tournament net revenue.

That would be an average of about $67 million per year paid out to each P5 school. That is only a little less than the amount of money the CFP pays out each year to each P5 conference!

So, the P5, if they ever go to the effort of setting up a new governing entity, would be extremely interested in acquiring that basketball tournament revenue for themselves.

Unlike in the past with the I-A/I-AA split the amount of hoops money flowing to the Big Sky or OVC is barely even peanuts in the overall revenue picture.

Most of it goes to fund NCAA programs, keep dues low, and build a large cash reserve which has been used to pay off lawsuits the P5 have been defendants in.

Right, it's not about the mid-major or low-major conferences taking big shares of the basketball money, it's about the NCAA hoarding the money. Contrast the NCAA's control of March Madness money with the CFP. There's no multi billion dollar CFP cash reserve funded with money skimmed off the top of CFP media revenue. The net CFP revenue is distributed to conferences and schools, unlike March Madness where the NCAA only distributes a portion to conferences and even then does it over a six-year period.

The lure of starting a new basketball tournament would be distributing nearly all of the revenue out to conferences and schools.

I'm skeptical that university presidents have athletic breakaway ideas anywhere near the top of their priority list, so it may never happen. The point is that if it did happen, the money to be made is more in basketball than in football where the big boys already are keeping the bulk of the loot.

The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

As a % of share against other participants? Yeah. Against the total amount the NCAA holds for 6 years? It's peanuts. It's a big bureaucratic scam by the NCAA.

Exactly. The relevant comparison is the net revenue from March Madness versus the amount of March Madness money received by the P5, not the amount received by the Big Ten versus the amount received by the Horizon League.
08-12-2019 03:13 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.
08-13-2019 03:55 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 03:55 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.

And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.
08-13-2019 07:57 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 07:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:55 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.

And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.

A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.
08-13-2019 09:59 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 09:59 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 07:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:55 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.

And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.

A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.

Typical BS from a G5 supporter and bureaucrat. There is no way to justify letting an institution that soaks the funds it holds for salaries to literally hold 10's of millions of dollars that should be paid to the schools directly. If you believe the stupid myths of million dollar waterfalls, that time has passed and there weren't but a handful of such abominations to start with.

I would rather decide how to spend my money than to let a bureaucracy find ways to soak it up. At least I can be responsible to the trustees. Who the hell does the NCAA answer to? They buy votes from the smaller schools, while playing favorites with the key larger ones and hope that lazy college presidents continue to let them manage it. Presidents by and large are academics and not noted particularly for business acumen. While there may be exceptions to every rule the AD's are in better position to apportion funds than the NCAA is.

Your philosophy about things speaks volumes to the thinking of someone who makes a living in government rather than business. And it is government that wastes money like no other entity, especially since most government employees rely on COLA's for raises and can spend revenue derived from those who are taxed.

I've been in both worlds and I'll take businessmen every time and twice on Sundays. They are less arrogant, more practical, and understand cost/benefit ratios.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 02:14 PM by JRsec.)
08-13-2019 02:08 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #36
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 02:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 09:59 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 07:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:55 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-12-2019 02:52 PM)ken d Wrote:  The big boys are already keeping the bulk of the loot in basketball, too.

This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.

And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.

A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.

Typical BS from a G5 supporter and bureaucrat. There is no way to justify letting an institution that soaks the funds it holds for salaries to literally hold 10's of millions of dollars that should be paid to the schools directly. If you believe the stupid myths of million dollar waterfalls, that time has passed and there weren't but a handful of such abominations to start with.

I would rather decide how to spend my money than to let a bureaucracy find ways to soak it up. At least I can be responsible to the trustees. Who the hell does the NCAA answer to? They buy votes from the smaller schools, while playing favorites with the key larger ones and hope that lazy college presidents continue to let them manage it. Presidents by and large are academics and not noted particularly for business acumen. While there may be exceptions to every rule the AD's are in better position to apportion funds than the NCAA is.

Your philosophy about things speaks volumes to the thinking of someone who makes a living in government rather than business. And it is government that wastes money like no other entity, especially since most government employees rely on COLA's for raises and can spend revenue derived from those who are taxed.

I've been in both worlds and I'll take businessmen every time and twice on Sundays. They are less arrogant, more practical, and understand cost/benefit ratios.

Bite me JR.
You want to be a ******* to someone it will be someone other than me.

You are a hateful bastard to try to make a discussion into a personal attack.
08-13-2019 03:51 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 03:51 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 09:59 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 07:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:55 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  This is like the gang boss, his lieutenant and several henchmen sitting at a table with 20 cookies, the boss taking 19 and pointing to the henchmen to tell the lieutenant "you better watch those guys, they want to take your cookie".

As pointed out already by multiple others, the bulk of the loot is not distributed, it sucked up to support the NCAA infrastructure.

And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.

A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.

Typical BS from a G5 supporter and bureaucrat. There is no way to justify letting an institution that soaks the funds it holds for salaries to literally hold 10's of millions of dollars that should be paid to the schools directly. If you believe the stupid myths of million dollar waterfalls, that time has passed and there weren't but a handful of such abominations to start with.

I would rather decide how to spend my money than to let a bureaucracy find ways to soak it up. At least I can be responsible to the trustees. Who the hell does the NCAA answer to? They buy votes from the smaller schools, while playing favorites with the key larger ones and hope that lazy college presidents continue to let them manage it. Presidents by and large are academics and not noted particularly for business acumen. While there may be exceptions to every rule the AD's are in better position to apportion funds than the NCAA is.

Your philosophy about things speaks volumes to the thinking of someone who makes a living in government rather than business. And it is government that wastes money like no other entity, especially since most government employees rely on COLA's for raises and can spend revenue derived from those who are taxed.

I've been in both worlds and I'll take businessmen every time and twice on Sundays. They are less arrogant, more practical, and understand cost/benefit ratios.

Bite me JR.
You want to be a ******* to someone it will be someone other than me.

You are a hateful bastard to try to make a discussion into a personal attack.

You made it personal when you said anyone who saw the NCAA as greedy was spewing BS. I don't hate you but I don't agree with your personal bias and pointed it out. You are the one who resorted to flat out name calling. Reprehensible conduct considering your profession, IMO.

But I am sorry you took it personally as it wasn't intended that way. Maybe you're just having a bad day. We all do sometimes. Government viewpoints and business viewpoints are relevant to attitudes about the NCAA. They are wasteful, greedy, and inadequate for where the games have gone. That's a businessman's point of view. Those in government tend to see these kinds of structures as essential to their needs. I don't.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 05:35 PM by JRsec.)
08-13-2019 05:21 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #38
Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 05:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:51 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 09:59 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 07:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  And they would be wrong. The amount that goes into the basketball fund paid out based on tournament participation and performance is only one of the funds that are distributed annually. And like the basketball fund, the bulk of that money goes to P5 schools. A relatively small percentage of the NCAAT revenues goes to fund the NCAA bureaucracy, and a larger percentage is retained in what amounts to an endowment, and as a hedge against some future contingency outside the NCAA's operating budget.

We tend to take what others post here as the truth (especially when it paints the NCAA in a bad light). But when you dig into the details, you often get a very different picture.

A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.

Typical BS from a G5 supporter and bureaucrat. There is no way to justify letting an institution that soaks the funds it holds for salaries to literally hold 10's of millions of dollars that should be paid to the schools directly. If you believe the stupid myths of million dollar waterfalls, that time has passed and there weren't but a handful of such abominations to start with.

I would rather decide how to spend my money than to let a bureaucracy find ways to soak it up. At least I can be responsible to the trustees. Who the hell does the NCAA answer to? They buy votes from the smaller schools, while playing favorites with the key larger ones and hope that lazy college presidents continue to let them manage it. Presidents by and large are academics and not noted particularly for business acumen. While there may be exceptions to every rule the AD's are in better position to apportion funds than the NCAA is.

Your philosophy about things speaks volumes to the thinking of someone who makes a living in government rather than business. And it is government that wastes money like no other entity, especially since most government employees rely on COLA's for raises and can spend revenue derived from those who are taxed.

I've been in both worlds and I'll take businessmen every time and twice on Sundays. They are less arrogant, more practical, and understand cost/benefit ratios.

Bite me JR.
You want to be a ******* to someone it will be someone other than me.

You are a hateful bastard to try to make a discussion into a personal attack.

You made it personal when you said anyone who saw the NCAA as greedy was spewing BS. I don't hate you but I don't agree with your personal bias and pointed it out. You are the one who resorted to flat out name calling. Reprehensible conduct considering your profession, IMO.

But I am sorry you took it personally as it wasn't intended that way. Maybe you're just having a bad day. We all do sometimes. Government viewpoints and business viewpoints are relevant to attitudes about the NCAA. They are wasteful, greedy, and inadequate for where the games have gone. That's a businessman's point of view. Those in government tend to see these kinds of structures as essential to their needs. I don't.


Not first time you’ve done this JR going personal against me. I don’t trust you anymore and regret that I have spoken freely to you in the past. That was my stupidity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
08-13-2019 07:48 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Would the NCAA consider dropping sponsorship of FBS football?
(08-13-2019 07:48 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 05:21 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 03:51 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 02:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-13-2019 09:59 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  A lot of that bad old BS that the greedy NCAA is doing with "the P5's money" is being used to benefit the P5 or P5 student-athletes.

College presidents are far smarter at understanding how the world works than people give them credit for.

If they want to use athletic money to fund research into athletic related things or to provide services to student-athletes at their schools or diversity programs or internships and training programs for female administrators or coaches they understand that the chances they get to use the money that way if it gets in the AD's budget as practically non-existent.

Keep the money off-shored in Indianapolis and they can use it do those things.

As I mentioned before, the last two big lawsuits that have been resolved where P5 leagues were defendants, the cash to settle up was NCAA reserve.

Typical BS from a G5 supporter and bureaucrat. There is no way to justify letting an institution that soaks the funds it holds for salaries to literally hold 10's of millions of dollars that should be paid to the schools directly. If you believe the stupid myths of million dollar waterfalls, that time has passed and there weren't but a handful of such abominations to start with.

I would rather decide how to spend my money than to let a bureaucracy find ways to soak it up. At least I can be responsible to the trustees. Who the hell does the NCAA answer to? They buy votes from the smaller schools, while playing favorites with the key larger ones and hope that lazy college presidents continue to let them manage it. Presidents by and large are academics and not noted particularly for business acumen. While there may be exceptions to every rule the AD's are in better position to apportion funds than the NCAA is.

Your philosophy about things speaks volumes to the thinking of someone who makes a living in government rather than business. And it is government that wastes money like no other entity, especially since most government employees rely on COLA's for raises and can spend revenue derived from those who are taxed.

I've been in both worlds and I'll take businessmen every time and twice on Sundays. They are less arrogant, more practical, and understand cost/benefit ratios.

Bite me JR.
You want to be a ******* to someone it will be someone other than me.

You are a hateful bastard to try to make a discussion into a personal attack.

You made it personal when you said anyone who saw the NCAA as greedy was spewing BS. I don't hate you but I don't agree with your personal bias and pointed it out. You are the one who resorted to flat out name calling. Reprehensible conduct considering your profession, IMO.

But I am sorry you took it personally as it wasn't intended that way. Maybe you're just having a bad day. We all do sometimes. Government viewpoints and business viewpoints are relevant to attitudes about the NCAA. They are wasteful, greedy, and inadequate for where the games have gone. That's a businessman's point of view. Those in government tend to see these kinds of structures as essential to their needs. I don't.


Not first time you’ve done this JR going personal against me. I don’t trust you anymore and regret that I have spoken freely to you in the past. That was my stupidity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Suit yourself but your opinions are not writ anymore than anyone else's. And perspective is a definable part of any argument as is personal bias.

When we spoke I thought we had a good deal in common. However, your narrow perspective on what is best for the P5 and as influenced by what is best for Arkansas State tells me clearly we don't.

Don't expect me to argue less fervently for what I believe than you do. And your tone is frequently dismissive of opinions other than your own. That's the bias of perspective at work.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2019 08:18 PM by JRsec.)
08-13-2019 08:02 PM
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