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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #21
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 04:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There is no money without the FB.

No TV money.

But ... the TV money is a joke unless you are in a P5. It's a pittance for a MAC school. How is that a big loss against the huge costs of football?

Really, the only valid justification for schools like EMU soaking their students for $25m in fees to fund a dead-weight football program is as an investment towards gaining P5 status. Because if you can convince one of the P5 to invite you, then you will suddenly be getting conference disbursements that actually do turn your athletics department in to a net profit not a net loss.

It's a fading hope, which means most schools doing this are just flushing good money after bad, but it's the only hope there is. Otherwise, it's just costs and deficits and student fees for as far as the eye can see.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2019 08:09 PM by quo vadis.)
07-25-2019 07:30 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #22
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 07:30 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 04:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There is no money without the FB.

No TV money.

But ... the TV money is a joke unless you are in a P5. It's a pittance for a MAC school. How is that a big loss against the huge costs of football?

It's a point of view I understand.

But I think many would be surprised at the level of money these G5 programs are pulling in. The level of revenue is growing exponentially while cost are staying in check.

MAC in particularly would surprise a lot of people on the level of revenue and the facilities they've erected.

*Numbers don't include institutional/student fee support.

Total revenues 2005
Marshall 9,239,097
Western Mich. 5,433,786
Ohio 3,681,418

Total revenues 2017
Marshall 14,941,797
Western Mich. 14,166,829
Ohio 12,144,681

When Marshall was in the MAC in the 90's Ohio's FB program wasn't on their level. One season Ohio managed to pull out a surprise victory against Marshall (2000) but as a whole was overmatched.

This decade Ohio against Marshall is 4-2 with a combined score of 163-140. Ohio today is on Marshall's level with more revenue now than what they were making in the CUSA 2.0 days.

Its more than just an Ohio thing. The entire MAC is earning far more revenue and with enhanced facilities built from private donations.

So the whole narrative the MAC is about to go "tits up" due to having FB programs is negligent of the revenue trends. The median MAC endowment has also tripled in the last two decades so that further buries any budget concerns around FB.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2019 08:55 PM by Kit-Cat.)
07-25-2019 08:49 PM
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Post: #23
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 07:37 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 05:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-24-2019 09:02 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Since we are constantly told that football is a big financial drain on a University unless they are P5 on this website better data tools are required to get an apples to apples comparison on spending and revenues.

http://cafidatabase.knightcommission.org/

For this example I will be comparing MAC poster child EMU with neighboring Oakland University to see the difference in revenue having a G5 football program brings opposed to not having a FB program at all.

Eastern Michigan University
NCAA/Conference Distributions/Media Rights 4,961,550
Competition Guarantees 1,755,990
Donor Contributions 1,073,330
Ticket Sales 776,377

Oakland University
NCAA/Conference Distributions/Media Rights 1,321,263
Competition Guarantees 267,800
Donor Contributions 703,860
Ticket Sales 242,113

EMU is pulling in 8.57 million of revenue sources with its FBS program while Oakland with no FB team 2.53 million.

The EMU FB team is worth over 6 million in revenue. It spent 6.2 million on its entire coaching staff for the department.


03-lmfao

First, you can't attribute all differences between these two schools to football. If school X has football and school Y does not, and if school X has $3m in donations and school Y has $2m in donations, you can't attribute the $1m more for X to football. They could get that amount without football, we don't know. The same applies for NCAA distributions, etc. You can't just use football as the residual catch-all explanation for differences, you have to tie money directly to football.

Second, it doesn't matter if EMU football program is worth $6m in revenue, if its football expenses - total expenses - are more than $6m, and you don't provide that information.

So basically, you have ambiguous revenue data, and no cost data, so ... we can't conclude anything from this.

This article says the football program cost more than $9m to operate in 2017:

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/201..._1000.html

But that is including scholarships.

That is like having family members stay for free at your home and then calculating the fair market hotel cost of their stays after the fact for accounting purposes.

Using your logic, EMU could just have free tuition and room and board for everyone, athlete or not, and it would not incur any actual costs because well the "home" is already there and it's no cost to anyone to crash there. I mean, I might as well call up Rice University right now, which charges $50,000 in tuition and say "hey, since your buildings and professors and dorms are already there, why not let me come over and live in the dorms and take classes for free, it's not costing you anything!"

That is nonsensical, so obviously the costs of a scholarship have to be included, not just for athletes but scholarships for actual academics as well. The fact that real costs are incurred is why non-scholarship students have to pay tuition, book fees, meal fees, dorm fees, etc. All those things cost money.

And having 85 football scholarships mean you need at least a couple of women's sports with substantial scholarships to cover that. Dropping football means you can drop 1 or more women's sports.
07-25-2019 10:19 PM
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Post: #24
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 07:04 PM)mlb Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 06:47 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 04:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There is no money without the FB.

No TV money.

Marketing and game guarantees aren't worth a hill of beans.


EMU spends $30M to get less than $10M a year in return. In addition they are draining donations to build football practice facilities.

This is a case of an athletic department bilking the State of Michigan out of nearly a quarter billion dollars to keep a football program going that has minuscule support.

You are feeding into this fraud by claiming it brings in money. Well I guess you could say buying a thousand widgets for $3 and then selling them for $1 on EBay is "bringing in money" too.
How much of that $30M would never have been donated without athletics?

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http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/reports/pdf/10614.pdf

Texas has a National Research University Fund to provide extra money for certain universities to move towards a premier research university. Houston and Texas Tech have already qualified. UT-Dallas qualified in the attached report. On page 12 you can see the huge lead Division III UTD has in endowments. And they have been growing it rapidly.
UTD $482 million
UTEP $242 million
Texas St. $187 million (brand new to FBS)
UNT $166 million
UTSA $152 million (brand new to FBS)
UTA $146 million (no football)

The non-football Division III school is the one with the endowment. UTA is basically the same as schools with football other than UTEP. And UTA is the one closest to meeting the requirements next after UTD.

Its not at all clear that football helps bring in net $$s to a non-P5 school. For Alabama or Oregon or Michigan, yes it does. For Eastern Michigan, that's an entirely different question.
07-25-2019 10:36 PM
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Post: #25
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 10:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  Its not at all clear that football helps bring in net $$s to a non-P5 school. For Alabama or Oregon or Michigan, yes it does. For Eastern Michigan, that's an entirely different question.

I doubt that it does ... I think (as is often the case) Kit-Kat is engaging in "optimistic arithmetic" here.

But there's still a kernel of truth here, which is that what the net cost of football buys is the exposure on national TV during #MACtion and the "ESPN Bowl Game Filmed In Front of a Live Audience" games. And if you just look at the gross cost of the FB, you would be massively overstating the net marketing spend, because a larger part of the hard money costs are covered by the CFP and TV money than is commonly understood.

When you look at the savings from dropping a women's team sport, that's mostly travel and coaches salary. After all, in the MAC, a lot of the scholarship costs are only pro forma, since most MAC schools are not up against capacity limits in most majors, and since so much of tuition covers fixed overheads rather than marginal per-student costs. The incremental hard cost of adding another student is therefore typically substantially less than the tuition they would have been charged. In many cases if you have a half-ride scholarship student, they are bringing net revenue into the school when the actual net cost of their education is taken into account. Certainly quarter-ride students are bringing in net revenue, as are walk-ons that would be attending a different University without the opportunity to be a varsity player in this sport. So for a relatively lower cost sport, you can easily have the on-campus operating costs and coaches salaries and a good chunk of travel subsidies paid for by the surplus on tuition from the team members.

If you have a school up against its capacity limits, or a more expensive sport to operate (like ice hockey), that would be less the case, but for soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, track, volleyball, gymnastics, they often don't have a hard cash net cost near as large as the program budget including scholarships would indicate.
07-25-2019 11:46 PM
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Post: #26
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 11:46 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 10:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  Its not at all clear that football helps bring in net $$s to a non-P5 school. For Alabama or Oregon or Michigan, yes it does. For Eastern Michigan, that's an entirely different question.

I doubt that it does ... I think (as is often the case) Kit-Kat is engaging in "optimistic arithmetic" here.

But there's still a kernel of truth here, which is that what the net cost of football buys is the exposure on national TV during #MACtion and the "ESPN Bowl Game Filmed In Front of a Live Audience" games. And if you just look at the gross cost of the FB, you would be massively overstating the net marketing spend, because a larger part of the hard money costs are covered by the CFP and TV money than is commonly understood.

When you look at the savings from dropping a women's team sport, that's mostly travel and coaches salary. After all, in the MAC, a lot of the scholarship costs are only pro forma, since most MAC schools are not up against capacity limits in most majors, and since so much of tuition covers fixed overheads rather than marginal per-student costs. The incremental hard cost of adding another student is therefore typically substantially less than the tuition they would have been charged. In many cases if you have a half-ride scholarship student, they are bringing net revenue into the school when the actual net cost of their education is taken into account. Certainly quarter-ride students are bringing in net revenue, as are walk-ons that would be attending a different University without the opportunity to be a varsity player in this sport. So for a relatively lower cost sport, you can easily have the on-campus operating costs and coaches salaries and a good chunk of travel subsidies paid for by the surplus on tuition from the team members.

If you have a school up against its capacity limits, or a more expensive sport to operate (like ice hockey), that would be less the case, but for soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, track, volleyball, gymnastics, they often don't have a hard cash net cost near as large as the program budget including scholarships would indicate.

EMU Football and other athletics as "exposure" and by that I guess you mean advertising for the school, are a very poor return on the dollar. And remember, excepting Hockey (which is another issue), most of the sports you mention as not cost effective, are for the most part required at a D1 level to meet the requirements of fielding a FBS level football team

So how effective has this "advertising", which is what the $203.4M given by the state tax payer the last years netted in return:

PHP Code:
year    Ticket Sales    Contributions
2017
-18    $776,377    $1,073,330
2016
-17    $231,725    $607,580
2015
-16    $488,707    $431,502
2014
-15    $148,738    $523,811
2013
-14    $367,038    $418,086
2012
-13    $173,973    $563,830
2011
-12    $385,053    $580,610    
2010
-11    $133,664    $360,426    
2009
-10    $292,606    $333,955    

Total       
$2,997,881    $4,893,130 

That totals just less than $3M in ticket sales and just less than $4.9M in donations over 9 years. (USAToday data)

That is an $7.9M return on a $200.3M investment.

What about enrollment? Well last year there were 12,275 full time undergrads, 7,291 of those women (only 4,984 men). Of course the literature at EMU tries to disguise this:

"2016 Enrolled Students: 21,246 (63% full time)"

That comes to roughly 13,385 students (clever that 63%). I think we can assume that was reasonably accurate for 2016-17. That means for 2018-19 there were 1,110 fewer students, a drop of 8.3% in enrollment. In 2010-11 there were 23,503 students, which if we assume the same 63% comes to 14,807 full time, some 2,532 more than last year, so a drop of 17.2% in the last 8 years.

So this $203.4M in advertising via the MAC has seen a drop in enrollment of at least 17.2% or 2,532 full time students and roughly 4,000 students in all students.

Without football and dropping to D2, the budget should drop to about $4M. Even if ticket sales and donations went to $0, the State would save nearly $20M a year in subsidies.

How many college students could be educated for $20M a year? The math says at least 500 full ride, probably more like 1500 with a directional school like EMich and 30% self funded. This is the lost opportunity cost. It would also lower the cost per student about $800 per year.

As advertising this stinks. A similar result occurs when analyzing schools like Kent State, Ball State and Akron. MACtion has a terrible negative ROI.
07-26-2019 12:55 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #27
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
(07-25-2019 08:49 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 07:30 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-25-2019 04:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  There is no money without the FB.

No TV money.

But ... the TV money is a joke unless you are in a P5. It's a pittance for a MAC school. How is that a big loss against the huge costs of football?

It's a point of view I understand.

But I think many would be surprised at the level of money these G5 programs are pulling in. The level of revenue is growing exponentially while cost are staying in check.

MAC in particularly would surprise a lot of people on the level of revenue and the facilities they've erected.

*Numbers don't include institutional/student fee support.

Total revenues 2005
Marshall 9,239,097
Western Mich. 5,433,786
Ohio 3,681,418

Total revenues 2017
Marshall 14,941,797
Western Mich. 14,166,829
Ohio 12,144,681

But then, why are student subsidies much higher than this and rising too?

This article says that WMU had a 2016 student subsidy of $26m, which was 82% higher than 10 years ago. And that's at a time when enrollment has fallen by 3,000 students over that time frame:

"In 2005, Western Michigan spent $14.2 million in institutional funds to pay for the athletics department, according to NCAA documents. The amount accounted for 72.3 percent of the athletic department's revenue that year. In 2015, the subsidy was $25.8 million -- an 82 percent increase -- and the subsidy had grown to 74.5 percent of the athletic department's total revenue."

It also says WMU's athletic revenue in 2015 was $8m. So subsidies are 75% of the athletic budget.

That's not "football paying for everything". See the searchable database.

Costs must be rising faster than revenue, and clearly exceed revenue. Seems like an extremely poor ROI:

https://www.mlive.com/news/page/michigan...bsidi.html
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2019 04:15 AM by quo vadis.)
07-26-2019 04:14 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #28
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
In a symbolic sense, it's the presence of schools where football really does pay the bills - Ohio State, Notre Dame, Alabama, Oklahoma, etc. - that is responsible for hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of students paying big athletic fees and subsidies at G5 and lower schools.

The G5s are chasing the dream of becoming an Oklahoma, with 90,000 in the stands every week, nationally famous, etc. If there were no such schools, if there was nothing but a G5, then I think football on college campuses would never make it beyond the club level.
07-26-2019 08:23 AM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #29
RE: College Athletic Financial Information Database
Checking through the donor Ohio guide I found an interesting reference to the financial accounting.

https://bobcatchampions.com/thisisohio/36/

While its overall operating budget is 2.46% percent of University spending It says that over 50% of its base operating budget (not including scholarships) is covered by revenues from the following categories.

-Ticket Sales
-Concessions
-Licensing
-Sponsorships
-NCAA and MAC Disbursements
-Merchandise Sales
-Broadcasting

While this is nothing different than what I was saying before what is new is they treat the athletic scholarships in the budget as a reimbursement back into the university. Once this is factored in the actual cost of athletics is only 1.00% of the University budget.

On another page it accounts for the marketing value national exposure of the program and mentioned that all 12 of the football games are broadcast on either an ESPN or CBS platform.

-$2 million per typical regular season telecast
-$6 million for 2016 MAC Championship Game
-$14 million for 2016 Bowl Game

https://bobcatchampions.com/thisisohio/26/

The marketing value adds up to $44 million dollars for FB program.

If its $44 million in marketing value for a top tier MAC program, a bottom tier program is in the neighborhood $15 million for 7-8 appearances on ESPN/CBS.
08-01-2019 02:29 PM
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