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"But I think that once you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the rest is soon to foller."

People who dislike trans folks will often argue that gender fluidity is a recent phenomenon. It helps them to paint the whole practice as absurd, and as a signal of a culture gone off the rails. But it's false. History is full of gender fluidity.

Many Native American societies had two-spirit folks who were accepted as inhabiting a space outside of a male/female gender binary.

I don't know a lot about it in other cultures, but here's a wikipedia page with lots of examples.

This is on gender expression in 18th and 19th century England.

Seems to me that gender fluidity is a perfectly natural human tendency. There's plenty of historical examples of cultures that accept it, and plenty of historical examples of cultures that punish it and banish it into the shadows. I think the former is a better idea.

The above post was in response to this part of the article, which I think is central to many people's attitudes toward trans people.

"For its wider implications, but also for its looniness, our *history books will marvel*—if and when *cultural sanity returns*—at the singular “human rights” case of alleged transwoman Jessica Yaniv—sometimes self-presenting as Jonathan Yaniv—vs the waxologists.

Yaniv retains his male genitalia. But, thanks to the *recently invented*, but imprecisely defined right of “gender expression” having been enshrined in legislation, Yaniv has been permitted to wreak havoc in the lives of 16 B.C. waxologists."

I found the entire essay to be absurd propaganda. Certainly not journalism

(07-26-2019 11:33 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me that gender fluidity is a perfectly natural human tendency. There's plenty of historical examples of cultures that accept it, and plenty of historical examples of cultures that punish it and banish it into the shadows. I think the former is a better idea.

Agreed.

As should species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity

Quote:A mother and business owner was forced to end her Brazilian waxing business after being taken to the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal for refusing to wax a transgender woman’s male genitalia.

No Country for Old Men :)

(07-26-2019 05:22 PM)ess Wrote:  

(07-26-2019 11:33 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me that gender fluidity is a perfectly natural human tendency. There's plenty of historical examples of cultures that accept it, and plenty of historical examples of cultures that punish it and banish it into the shadows. I think the former is a better idea.

Agreed.

As should species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity

Quote:A mother and business owner was forced to end her Brazilian waxing business after being taken to the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal for refusing to wax a transgender woman’s male genitalia.

No Country for Old Men :)

Seems to me you're approaching a sensitive topic with a 9th grader's sense of humor. I think you should consider how difficult life can be in a million different ways for trans folks and how little you're being asked to do by some section of society in order to make things better. I had a student transition last year. It was really hard for him. Jerks like the author of this article make it lots harder.

(07-27-2019 05:05 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(07-26-2019 05:22 PM)ess Wrote:  

(07-26-2019 11:33 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me that gender fluidity is a perfectly natural human tendency. There's plenty of historical examples of cultures that accept it, and plenty of historical examples of cultures that punish it and banish it into the shadows. I think the former is a better idea.

Agreed.

As should species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity

Quote:A mother and business owner was forced to end her Brazilian waxing business after being taken to the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal for refusing to wax a transgender woman’s male genitalia.

No Country for Old Men :)

Seems to me you're approaching a sensitive topic with a 9th grader's sense of humor. I think you should consider how difficult life can be in a million different ways for trans folks and how little you're being asked to do by some section of society in order to make things better. I had a student transition last year. It was really hard for him. Jerks like the author of this article make it lots harder.

Do some reading on the recent phenomena of rapid onset gender dysphoria among teen natal females
and its sociogenic nature.

(07-27-2019 05:05 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  

(07-26-2019 05:22 PM)ess Wrote:  

(07-26-2019 11:33 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me that gender fluidity is a perfectly natural human tendency. There's plenty of historical examples of cultures that accept it, and plenty of historical examples of cultures that punish it and banish it into the shadows. I think the former is a better idea.

Agreed.

As should species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity

Quote:A mother and business owner was forced to end her Brazilian waxing business after being taken to the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal for refusing to wax a transgender woman’s male genitalia.

No Country for Old Men :)

Seems to me you're approaching a sensitive topic with a 9th grader's sense of humor. I think you should consider how difficult life can be in a million different ways for trans folks and how little you're being asked to do by some section of society in order to make things better. I had a student transition last year. It was really hard for him. Jerks like the author of this article make it lots harder.

Society needs to adjust to the “new” phenomenon of trans people. I only say new in that it’s just recently that trans identifying people are being brought to the forefront and their rights fought for. It almost feels “new” to non-trans people. Obviously humans haven’t changed and this group has always existed.

But any matter involving nudity and gender is complicated and I’m not sure the answer is as simple as “I identify this way and you have to treat me as such”. Not once the clothes come off. In all other matters, yes, society needs to respect those individuals wishes. Remember, we are sexually repressed Americans....we can’t handle this yet.

(07-27-2019 05:05 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me you're approaching a sensitive topic with a 9th grader's sense of humor.

It seems to me that you're wrong.

It told you that I agreed with you, and that society should "accept" trans people.

I'm the (self-described) libertarian, remember?

Who's political views are based on the NAP (non-aggression principle). A principle that you rejected.

Having said that.

The article is about a (trans) woman who believes that her HUMAN RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED (huh?) when another woman refused to wax her peni$.

Since that happened the business owner has been repeatedly attacked (she's a "trans-phobe"), and now has to answer to her government for her decision.

Say all of that out loud.

My only point is/that the world has changed.

And it's amusing to think about how many of the older generation must view these changes.

Hence the title of the thread. And the quote from the movie.

But

Why smile and waste a good chance to be offended?

So...like clockwork

(Some) folks were "triggered" by the article

And felt the need to make that known and to lecture us.

About what views and what speech are acceptable.

The same people who preach diversity and tolerance and inclusiveness.

Except (of course) when it comes to diversity of ideas.

That's when lines need to be drawn.

And when the insults and labels are used

With virtue signaling soon to follow.

(07-27-2019 10:23 AM)ess Wrote:  

(07-27-2019 05:05 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Seems to me you're approaching a sensitive topic with a 9th grader's sense of humor.

It seems to me that you're wrong.

It told you that I agreed with you, and that society should "accept" trans people.

I'm the (self-described) libertarian, remember?

Who's political views are based on the NAP (non-aggression principle). A principle that you rejected.

Having said that.

The article is about a (trans) woman who believes that her HUMAN RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED (huh?) when another woman refused to wax her peni$.

Since that happened the business owner has been repeatedly attacked (she's a "trans-phobe"), and now has to answer to her government for her decision.

Say all of that out loud.

My only point is/that the world has changed.

And it's amusing to think about how many of the older generation must view these changes.

Hence the title of the thread. And the quote from the movie.

But

Why smile and waste a good chance to be offended?

So...like clockwork

(Some) folks were "triggered" the article

And felt the need to make that known and to lecture us.

About what views and what speech are acceptable.

The same people who preach diversity and tolerance and inclusiveness.

Except (of course) when it comes to diversity of ideas.

That's when lines need to be drawn.

And when the insults and labels are used

With virtue signaling soon to follow.

I smiled, laffed, got faux offended because that's the pc thing to do, then smiled and laffed again.

The article made a specific claim, that transgenderism is a new and ridiculous phenomenon. I disagreed and provided evidence. You compared gender fluidity to "species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity." I took that as a jokey obfuscation and mentioned the actual significance of transphobic attitudes on real people's lives. You think that's lecturing and moralizing, and maybe it is. I'm not really sure how it's different than you arguing for this non-aggression principle, but maybe it is somehow. I'm not sure how I could look at trans people in my life and feel decent justifying "Yeah I argue full-throatedly about things like tax rates, climate change, basketball recruiting, who should play power forward, etc., but when I see people mocking your identity I just let it slide because I don't wanna appear as a PC lecturer." That doesn't make any sense to me.

(07-27-2019 08:56 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  I took that as a jokey obfuscation

Statements like that make you sound close-minded, bigoted, and intolerant.

An example of race fluidity:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017...ise-grovel

Which was not widely accepted:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ra...ncna871656

And another:

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2019/ap...-black-too

And (perhaps) our most famous example of ethnic fluidity:

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/16/17983250/...indian-dna

Along with the The Cherokee Nation response:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-el...ap-n965921

"Jokey"?

In this context.

Any (attempted) humor wasn't directed at any of these individuals (well...maybe excepting Elizabeth Warren a bit)

But it does seem to have found its mark.

C'mon man. You posted an article that mocks trans people and the concept of gender fluidity. Then when pressed on it, you compared it to "species fluidity and race fluidity and age fluidity and weight fluidity and height fluidity." And you said you're fine with all of the above as a libertarian. Then you provided some examples of race fluidity, one of which you seem to (rightfully) disapprove of (Warren). But it's the species, age, weight, and height ones that make it clear you were kidding around and doing the old "Well if a man can identify as a woman, what's next? a lizard? an asian person? a tall guy? lol" thing.

As a practical matter, I had hernia surgery. A female nurse shaved me down there. I assume she would have done a woman as well. One might ask what difference does it make if I self identify as a male or females. The service is basically identical any way you slice it (can’t help myself sometimes). It’s the label upsets people.

In the case of the waxoligists, I agree. It’s a sticky situation.

(07-28-2019 12:35 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  In the case of the waxoligists, I agree. It’s a sticky situation.

:)

(07-28-2019 10:06 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  "Well if a man can identify as a woman, what's next? a lizard?

Similar stuff has happened.

However, there are suggestions that certain neurological conditions and cultural influences may result in the expression of the human-animal transformation theme that defines the condition.

But "we" consider this condition to be abnormal, and view these people as being mentally ill.

Much the same way society viewed and treated homosexual people for years.

BTW

While this (below) is true with respect to my political leanings.

Quote:And you said you're fine with all of the above as a libertarian.

It's not really why I think society should "accept" trans people.

Given what I do for a living.

And given that I'm (sort of) old, and have experienced a few things.

I will spend my remaining days concentrating on what "we" have in common.

Not on how we differ.

No intelligent person would take that article seriously. It is a joke and ess I too read your response as humor. If that is not what you intended then perhaps you need to work on presentation. This is who jessica yaniv is https://kiwifarms.net/threads/jonathan-j...faq.58763/

It's like discussing rape with a rapist.

(07-28-2019 04:03 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  It is a joke and ess I too read your response as humor. If that is not what you intended then perhaps you need to work on presentation.

Maybe so.

Or maybe not.

Any "humor" (from me) was directed at the humor-less.

Not folks in the "trans community"

But rather the self-appointed guardians of acceptable thought and speech.

It (seemingly) hit the mark.

or not. words have meaning.

(07-28-2019 04:43 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  words have meaning.

True dat.

And we should celebrate the diversity of ideas expressed by those words

Along with the freedom to express them

No?