(07-21-2019 06:32 AM)jollyroger Wrote:  I do not understand this but it has gone on for decades. When a highly recruited kid commits to ECU, the ranking services will slide him back a little in ratings. Ahlers was close to a 4 star for his senior year, but a high 3 when he donned the ECU cap.
I think Garcia was derated just a smidge too. I am assuming this happens all over the league. If a kid chooses Houston over say an A&M or UT, he is dropped back a little.
I love getting big recruits but there area a TON of 3 star and even good 2 star players who will shine in FBS ball.

This is probably true. I know Tulsa had a guy committed for a long time in last year's class, but right before the fall signing day he flipped to Arkansas. After that he magically improved from a 2 star to a 3 star in about 2 days time. Incredible.

For what it's worth, some of Tulsa's best players are 2 stars out of high school. Often hidden gems we pick up. Like LB Zaven Collins. He was a Rivals 2 star who would probably start for OU right now if he had went to a place like that.

I've always said that if UC could just corner the Cincinnati/NKY area recruiting market, we would be a top 15 team every year.

There's a reason that Ohio St., Notre Dame, Michigan, Michigan St., BC and Penn St. went there to do their shopping for decades.

But alas, the "recruiting grounds" argument fell on deaf ears when the B12 and ACC had a chance to plant their flags there and chose WVU and Louisville instead.

Now Louisville is "school 6", Pitino and Petrino are nowhere to be found and suddenly they're not so cool anymore.

Holgerson left WVU to go to Houston. What does that tell you?

Keep up the good work, coach Fick. A-A-C !!

Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

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(07-21-2019 09:12 AM)mlb Wrote:  Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

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To clarify my point, I was leaning towards the WVU pick by the B12 not being all that everyone thought it would be.

Unless the new WVU guy comes and sets the world on fire, WVU's certainly not going to give up the B12 money but I think they secretly wish that things were different.

(07-21-2019 06:32 AM)jollyroger Wrote:  I do not understand this but it has gone on for decades. When a highly recruited kid commits to ECU a non-P5 school, the ranking services will slide him back a little in ratings. Ahlers was close to a 4 star for his senior year, but a high 3 when he donned the ECU cap.
I think Garcia was derated just a smidge too. I am assuming this happens all over the league. If a kid chooses Houston over say an A&M or UT, he is dropped back a little.
I love getting big recruits but there area a TON of 3 star and even good 2 star players who will shine in FBS ball.

FIFY. I never get caught up in recruiting rankings because the entire industry is driven by a desire to sell subscriptions, and the actuaries tell them that they maximize those by making sure their biggest cash cows are rated highly so people will keep paying. The best example is how Florida State was a perennial top 5 recruiting school in Jimbo Fisher's final years despite the fact that none of those players panned out and they went under .500 for two consecutive years in an ACC that was Clemson and the 13 dwarves.

USFFan

(07-21-2019 09:12 AM)mlb Wrote:  Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

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in a way yes and no
he is very open about it....he is like mike leech and just says whatever he is feeling

you could say its because of the "heat"...but thats leaving out a lot of context

he spoke of the unrealistic expectation of a school like WV, they want to compete for conference/national titles every year while being located in WV (worst recruiting grounds in the conference) and competing with budgets like texas and oklahoma..you wouldn't realize he averaged a top 4 finish in the big 12 with all the heat he gets.

you could ay it was becuase of the "heat"..but the real reason is becuase he didnt think any WVU coach could have long term success while in the big 12 with the expectation they have

he doesn't mind crazy expectation , as long as its feasible ...ie houston is the big fish in its pond, not the small fish with big fish expectations..

-- also i dont get why wanting to retire at a school is automatically equal to tubbs? tubbs was 20years older than dana, and had already accomplished elite things before cincy, his legacy was secure regardless....dana still has a lot to put on his resume to secure his legacy

(07-21-2019 07:36 AM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  I've always said that if UC could just corner the Cincinnati/NKY area recruiting market, we would be a top 15 team every year.

There's a reason that Ohio St., Notre Dame, Michigan, Michigan St., BC and Penn St. went there to do their shopping for decades.

But alas, the "recruiting grounds" argument fell on deaf ears when the B12 and ACC had a chance to plant their flags there and chose WVU and Louisville instead.

Now Louisville is "school 6", Pitino and Petrino are nowhere to be found and suddenly they're not so cool anymore.

Holgerson left WVU to go to Houston. What does that tell you?

Keep up the good work, coach Fick. A-A-C !!

You're right about the high school talent in that area. Most old timers remember Massillon as a national power, but Elder always seems to be one of the top teams in the country and you guys have a damned fine group of Catholic teams in that area as well. Moeller was so good that Notre Dame hired their coach!

USFFan

(07-21-2019 09:52 AM)usffan Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 07:36 AM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  I've always said that if UC could just corner the Cincinnati/NKY area recruiting market, we would be a top 15 team every year.

There's a reason that Ohio St., Notre Dame, Michigan, Michigan St., BC and Penn St. went there to do their shopping for decades.

But alas, the "recruiting grounds" argument fell on deaf ears when the B12 and ACC had a chance to plant their flags there and chose WVU and Louisville instead.

Now Louisville is "school 6", Pitino and Petrino are nowhere to be found and suddenly they're not so cool anymore.

Holgerson left WVU to go to Houston. What does that tell you?

Keep up the good work, coach Fick. A-A-C !!

You're right about the high school talent in that area. Most old timers remember Massillon as a national power, but Elder always seems to be one of the top teams in the country and you guys have a damned fine group of Catholic teams in that area as well. Moeller was so good that Notre Dame hired their coach!

USFFan

Massilon football is a victim of the decline of industrial Midwestern towns. That region has been decimated over the last three decades. The Cincinnati Catholic schools - Elder, Moeller, Lasalle, and St. Xavier - dominate the urban areas (roughly) but some of the suburban schools in the northern parts of the city are beginning to thrive.

(07-21-2019 09:50 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 09:12 AM)mlb Wrote:  Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

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in a way yes and no
he is very open about it....he is like mike leech and just says whatever he is feeling

you could say its because of the "heat"...but thats leaving out a lot of context

he spoke of the unrealistic expectation of a school like WV, they want to compete for conference/national titles every year while being located in WV (worst recruiting grounds in the conference) and competing with budgets like texas and oklahoma..you wouldn't realize he averaged a top 4 finish in the big 12 with all the heat he gets.

you could ay it was becuase of the "heat"..but the real reason is becuase he didnt think any WVU coach could have long term success while in the big 12 with the expectation they have

he doesn't mind crazy expectation , as long as its feasible ...ie houston is the big fish in its pond, not the small fish with big fish expectations..

-- also i dont get why wanting to retire at a school is automatically equal to tubbs? tubbs was 20years older than dana, and had already accomplished elite things before cincy, his legacy was secure regardless....dana still has a lot to put on his resume to secure his legacy

He’s right about WVU. we’d all love to be in the B12 bc of the money but is it really a better situation? At Houston in the AAC he can go undefeated and maybe make the playoff, great shot at NY6 out of the AAC. That isn’t happening at WVU.

(07-21-2019 10:22 AM)First Mate Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 09:50 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 09:12 AM)mlb Wrote:  Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

in a way yes and no
he is very open about it....he is like mike leech and just says whatever he is feeling

you could say its because of the "heat"...but thats leaving out a lot of context

he spoke of the unrealistic expectation of a school like WV, they want to compete for conference/national titles every year while being located in WV (worst recruiting grounds in the conference) and competing with budgets like texas and oklahoma..you wouldn't realize he averaged a top 4 finish in the big 12 with all the heat he gets.

you could ay it was becuase of the "heat"..but the real reason is becuase he didnt think any WVU coach could have long term success while in the big 12 with the expectation they have

he doesn't mind crazy expectation , as long as its feasible ...ie houston is the big fish in its pond, not the small fish with big fish expectations..

-- also i dont get why wanting to retire at a school is automatically equal to tubbs? tubbs was 20years older than dana, and had already accomplished elite things before cincy, his legacy was secure regardless....dana still has a lot to put on his resume to secure his legacy

He’s right about WVU. we’d all love to be in the B12 bc of the money but is it really a better situation? At Houston in the AAC he can go undefeated and maybe make the playoff, great shot at NY6 out of the AAC. That isn’t happening at WVU.

There's more to it than that. The state of West Virginia is pretty talent bare, and you're recruiting to a conference where the closest team is 900 miles away. Houston is smack dab in the middle of one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the nation.

(07-21-2019 09:45 AM)usffan Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 06:32 AM)jollyroger Wrote:  I do not understand this but it has gone on for decades. When a highly recruited kid commits to ECU a non-P5 school, the ranking services will slide him back a little in ratings. Ahlers was close to a 4 star for his senior year, but a high 3 when he donned the ECU cap.
I think Garcia was derated just a smidge too. I am assuming this happens all over the league. If a kid chooses Houston over say an A&M or UT, he is dropped back a little.
I love getting big recruits but there area a TON of 3 star and even good 2 star players who will shine in FBS ball.

FIFY. I never get caught up in recruiting rankings because the entire industry is driven by a desire to sell subscriptions, and the actuaries tell them that they maximize those by making sure their biggest cash cows are rated highly so people will keep paying. The best example is how Florida State was a perennial top 5 recruiting school in Jimbo Fisher's final years despite the fact that none of those players panned out and they went under .500 for two consecutive years in an ACC that was Clemson and the 13 dwarves.

USFFan

That's the way I see it, as well. For many years, Memphis had no fan presence on Rivals, and even now, it is minuscule. So we regularly had that happen with recruits in both sports.

(07-21-2019 09:45 AM)usffan Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 06:32 AM)jollyroger Wrote:  I do not understand this but it has gone on for decades. When a highly recruited kid commits to ECU a non-P5 school, the ranking services will slide him back a little in ratings. Ahlers was close to a 4 star for his senior year, but a high 3 when he donned the ECU cap.
I think Garcia was derated just a smidge too. I am assuming this happens all over the league. If a kid chooses Houston over say an A&M or UT, he is dropped back a little.
I love getting big recruits but there area a TON of 3 star and even good 2 star players who will shine in FBS ball.

FIFY. I never get caught up in recruiting rankings because the entire industry is driven by a desire to sell subscriptions, and the actuaries tell them that they maximize those by making sure their biggest cash cows are rated highly so people will keep paying. The best example is how Florida State was a perennial top 5 recruiting school in Jimbo Fisher's final years despite the fact that none of those players panned out and they went under .500 for two consecutive years in an ACC that was Clemson and the 13 dwarves.

USFFan

I agree, although the condition does not appear to apply to 247Sports basketball rankings.

If Dana was killing it at WVA, he would still be there and not at UH. Case closed.

(07-21-2019 12:36 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  If Dana was killing it at WVA, he would still be there and not at UH. Case closed.

wrong.. you just sent the wrong person to jail for life....case re-opened

If Dana was killing it at WVA, he'd be at a blue blood...
dana is very candid and made it obvious he wa at a crazy disadvantage in WVU while at WVU..west viriginia was never the final destination for him

and are we going to act like west virigina wasnt 7 points away from a playoff birth just 5 months ago?

(07-21-2019 01:10 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 12:36 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  If Dana was killing it at WVA, he would still be there and not at UH. Case closed.

wrong.. you just sent the wrong person to jail for life....case re-opened

If Dana was killing it at WVA, he'd be at a blue blood...
dana is very candid and made it obvious he wa at a crazy disadvantage in WVU while at WVU..west viriginia was never the final destination for him

and are we going to act like west virigina wasnt 7 points away from a playoff birth just 5 months ago?

If he was killing it, at WVA or at another P5 gig, he wouldn't be at UH.

How's that?

I think Dana is a good hire. You can win at WVU, but it is harder no longer playing east coast schools and having a Florida pipeline.

Houston is a fertile ground, crazy rich benefactor and maybe a chance to bust into the P5 in a few years. I don't know if he will be great (I am not betting against him), but I doubt he will suck as bad as Tubberville.

(07-21-2019 09:50 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(07-21-2019 09:12 AM)mlb Wrote:  Holgerson went to Houston because of the heat he had at WVU. Don't let him fool you. Hopefully he had more drive than Tuberville had when he got to UC.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

in a way yes and no
he is very open about it....he is like mike leech and just says whatever he is feeling

you could say its because of the "heat"...but thats leaving out a lot of context

he spoke of the unrealistic expectation of a school like WV, they want to compete for conference/national titles every year while being located in WV (worst recruiting grounds in the conference) and competing with budgets like texas and oklahoma..you wouldn't realize he averaged a top 4 finish in the big 12 with all the heat he gets.

you could ay it was becuase of the "heat"..but the real reason is becuase he didnt think any WVU coach could have long term success while in the big 12 with the expectation they have

he doesn't mind crazy expectation , as long as its feasible ...ie houston is the big fish in its pond, not the small fish with big fish expectations..

-- also i dont get why wanting to retire at a school is automatically equal to tubbs? tubbs was 20years older than dana, and had already accomplished elite things before cincy, his legacy was secure regardless....dana still has a lot to put on his resume to secure his legacy

I live in Morgantown and trust me... It wasn't "unrealistic" expectations that plagued Holgerson's time here. From "Day 1" he didn't do anything to help his case and even when he had a (supposed) "Heisman Candidate" in Will Grier, his teams failed to accomplish anything. The lack of discipline (as evidenced by bone-headed errors like fouling a guy a clear 10 years out-of-bounds against OU) and a "casual" atmosphere just wore thin on Mountaineer fans.

I know that you won't accept what I'm saying, but as a Bearcat fan I have no real worries about Holgs going to Houston. His ceiling is 8-9 wins per season. He's a rough analog to Dave Wansteadt...predictable and not going to win games based off his coaching acumen.

(07-21-2019 05:25 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I live in Morgantown and trust me... It wasn't "unrealistic" expectations that plagued Holgerson's time here. From "Day 1" he didn't do anything to help his case and even when he had a (supposed) "Heisman Candidate" in Will Grier, his teams failed to accomplish anything. The lack of discipline (as evidenced by bone-headed errors like fouling a guy a clear 10 years out-of-bounds against OU) and a "casual" atmosphere just wore thin on Mountaineer fans.

I know that you won't accept what I'm saying, but as a Bearcat fan I have no real worries about Holgs going to Houston. His ceiling is 8-9 wins per season. He's a rough analog to Dave Wansteadt...predictable and not going to win games based off his coaching acumen.

didnt accomplish anything? they were 7 points away from playing in the playoff....they finished top 25

you are part of that unrealistic expectations he is talking about...finishing top 25 with wvu resources while competing against the likes of texas and Oklahoma SHOULD be an accomplishment.. you are more proving my point ...top 10 finishes every year are the standard at wvu for success

i have no clue how holgerson will do...but ill see things more clearly than anyone from WV
None of you want to account for the fact that you are in West Virginia and how that is huge disadvantage ..you aren't in the big east where you could win with passable recruiting

averaging 4th place in the big 12/8-9 wins a season while being located in the worst recruiting ground in the conference while playing top 10 recruiting teams
is little indication he'll do 8/9wins in the AAC as probably the biggest recruiting power in the conference, playing mostly smaller private schools yearly

--interesting fact Oklahoma next season is the only game regular season game the next 6 years where we will be likely "out talented" (schedules already made no powers)

*rankings. Why are most of the threads rife with misspellings?

Derating kids when they choose an AAC team does not make them worse. It just shows you should not put that much faith in the ratings system. The problem for the AAC teams is getting good players for Depth, especially in the line play.