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Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #61
Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




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07-03-2019 08:09 PM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 08:09 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




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Yeah, this entire conversation seems like busybodies thinking that "(insert state name here) State" means you're a viable candidate to move up. Colorado State's mediocre at best in just about everything they do, and while the Denver market's growing like a weed, it's a very poor college sports market. Even when CU had top ten teams regularly, Broncos preview shows would get better ratings than Buffs football. Air Force would honestly make more sense if you're pulling someone from Colorado, and even that's a weird fit.
07-03-2019 08:19 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #63
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 08:19 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:09 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




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Yeah, this entire conversation seems like busybodies thinking that "(insert state name here) State" means you're a viable candidate to move up. Colorado State's mediocre at best in just about everything they do, and while the Denver market's growing like a weed, it's a very poor college sports market. Even when CU had top ten teams regularly, Broncos preview shows would get better ratings than Buffs football. Air Force would honestly make more sense if you're pulling someone from Colorado, and even that's a weird fit.

I think its an indication of just how bare the cupboard is. Its either an institutional fit (like CSU, that is similar in academics, budget, brand, and facilities as many AAC schools) that is a little on the soft side in athletic performance, or a school thats fairly strong in football--but doesnt really fit in other ways (bad basketball/weak academics/low budget/poor facilties/no brand/no market/etc), or take a team thats very underdeveloped and currently not really a match----but has good potential and location.

Thats why I think the best option this round is split the slot. The only option that makes 100% sense right now is add VCU. You can always circle back around to take another full member---or you might be better off adding a school that is good at football---but maybe doesnt fit the "perfect match" metrics the league may desire in its potential 12th full member.
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2019 08:36 PM by Attackcoog.)
07-03-2019 08:34 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
VCU would be a positive add, but I think St. Louis makes more sense. It’s a major city right in the heart of the conference. The league could take over Arch Madness.
07-03-2019 10:21 PM
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panama Online
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Post: #65
Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
Why would CSU want to come across the country?

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(This post was last modified: 07-03-2019 10:29 PM by panama.)
07-03-2019 10:29 PM
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Post: #66
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 10:29 PM)panama Wrote:  Why would CSU want to come across the country?

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We arent hunting. If they are under consideration, then it will be because they themselves approached the AAC and asked to be considered. But, if you need a reason, just today the Las Vegas Journal Review had an expert saying that the MW probably would get no more than 2.8 million a team and possibly as little as $666K per team in their new deal. Other reasons---off the top of my head---maybe they like the superior exposure or the Texas recruiting grounds---or maybe they are just sick of the Boise special deal that pays Boise more than every other MW team.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 12:27 AM by Attackcoog.)
07-04-2019 12:25 AM
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DustMyBroom Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 08:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:19 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:09 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




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Yeah, this entire conversation seems like busybodies thinking that "(insert state name here) State" means you're a viable candidate to move up. Colorado State's mediocre at best in just about everything they do, and while the Denver market's growing like a weed, it's a very poor college sports market. Even when CU had top ten teams regularly, Broncos preview shows would get better ratings than Buffs football. Air Force would honestly make more sense if you're pulling someone from Colorado, and even that's a weird fit.

I think its an indication of just how bare the cupboard is. Its either an institutional fit (like CSU, that is similar in academics, budget, brand, and facilities as many AAC schools) that is a little on the soft side in athletic performance, or a school thats fairly strong in football--but doesnt really fit in other ways (bad basketball/weak academics/low budget/poor facilties/no brand/no market/etc), or take a team thats very underdeveloped and currently not really a match----but has good potential and location.

Thats why I think the best option this round is split the slot. The only option that makes 100% sense right now is add VCU. You can always circle back around to take another full member---or you might be better off adding a school that is good at football---but maybe doesnt fit the "perfect match" metrics the league may desire in its potential 12th full member.

Few posts illustrate the “grass is greener” attitude of the AAC board on this forum more eloquently than this one does. Schools that are thousands of miles from member schools and have no better academics, facilities, or other metrics than schools within the conference footprint are hot right now because...what, exactly?

The obvious answer is because you haven’t played them much, and that’s a very flimsy reason to want to make a long term commitment to having them in your conference.
07-04-2019 02:46 AM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #68
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 08:09 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




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Not sure why you think they are so terrible. They arent Boise, but they aren't terrible. Here are CSU's win-loss football records for the last 20 years. They are a barely under .500 Thats way better than the team they are replacing.


2018.....3-9
2017.....7-6
2016.....7-6
2015.....7-6
2014....10-3
2013.....8-6
2012.....4-8
2011.....3-9
2010.....3-9
2009.....3-9
2008.....7-6
2007.....3-9
2006.....4-8
2005.....6-6
2004.....4-7
2003.....7-6
2002....10-4
2001.....7-5
2000....10-2
1999.....8-4

Total----121-128

10 NCAA basketball tournament appearances. Over the last 20 years they made the tournament 3 times ( 2003, 2012, and 2013). How does that compare with some AAC present members and some other candidates? Thats 2 less NCAA appearances than Tulsa, UAB, and ODU each has over the last 20 years and the same number of appearances as SMU, UMass, and S Miss have combined for over the last 20 years.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 09:51 AM by Attackcoog.)
07-04-2019 03:27 AM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #69
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 02:46 AM)DustMyBroom Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:19 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:09 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 08:01 PM)Mav Wrote:  Why would CSU give away their rivalries with Air Force and Wyoming? Even if they didn't have such deep ties to the MWC, it's not like the AAC is a huge upgrade from them, at least on the football field. Whatever they'd make in TV money they'd lose at the gate, since they'd be playing a bunch of schools their fanbase doesn't care about.


My question is why would the AAC want CSU? Anyone look at their standings in football and basketball? They generally suck.

Interest falls below all the pro teams and CU, so they are not a great draw either.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yeah, this entire conversation seems like busybodies thinking that "(insert state name here) State" means you're a viable candidate to move up. Colorado State's mediocre at best in just about everything they do, and while the Denver market's growing like a weed, it's a very poor college sports market. Even when CU had top ten teams regularly, Broncos preview shows would get better ratings than Buffs football. Air Force would honestly make more sense if you're pulling someone from Colorado, and even that's a weird fit.

I think its an indication of just how bare the cupboard is. Its either an institutional fit (like CSU, that is similar in academics, budget, brand, and facilities as many AAC schools) that is a little on the soft side in athletic performance, or a school thats fairly strong in football--but doesnt really fit in other ways (bad basketball/weak academics/low budget/poor facilties/no brand/no market/etc), or take a team thats very underdeveloped and currently not really a match----but has good potential and location.

Thats why I think the best option this round is split the slot. The only option that makes 100% sense right now is add VCU. You can always circle back around to take another full member---or you might be better off adding a school that is good at football---but maybe doesnt fit the "perfect match" metrics the league may desire in its potential 12th full member.

Few posts illustrate the “grass is greener” attitude of the AAC board on this forum more eloquently than this one does. Schools that are thousands of miles from member schools and have no better academics, facilities, or other metrics than schools within the conference footprint are hot right now because...what, exactly?

The obvious answer is because you haven’t played them much, and that’s a very flimsy reason to want to make a long term commitment to having them in your conference.

CSU shares a lot of the characteristics of the typical AAC schools and just built a top of the line G5 stadium. Their location is not a huge negative. That state literally borders on the current AAC footprint. That said, I wouldnt call CSU a "hot" pick---just a reasonable option.

Look--the only flashy picks are Boise and BYU. Those are the biggest and most well known brands. For a multitude of reasons, I dont see either one being the next member of the AAC. Army and Air Force have the next biggest brands and tv appeal. Those are extreme long shots.

After that, every option has some good stuff on their resume and some not so good stuff. It just comes down to what "good stuff" and "not so good stuff" the presidents and ESPN decide to weigh most.

That said---CUSA 1.0 and 2.0 were both failed experiments. CUSA 1.0 was envisioned as a "basketball first" conference (sort of a Big East lite clone) that would leverage big city markets and add football to the mix. It had limited success, but never came close to its expected potential. CUSA 2.0 was an attempt to go more regional with a stronger football focus. It failed badly as well---never placed anyone in a major BCS bowl, saw its national TV exposure decline, and never was able to earn more media money than the Mountain West. The former CUSA teams currently in the AAC, for the first time in decades, have actually managed to achieve some measure of financial and athletic success with the spread out Frankenstein like "best of the rest" conference building philosophy that you are criticizing. However, while you seem to believe the regional "just take whatever team is in the footprint" concept is the way to go----it hasnt really performed well for non-power schools since the dawn of the Bowl Coalition/BCS/CFP era. So now that they have finally begun to experience some success with a different unorthodox model, there really should be a strong level of hesitancy among AAC administrators to slowly reforming CUSA 2.0 or CUSA 3.0 under the AAC name. It didnt work multiple times before---why would it work now?
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 12:21 PM by Attackcoog.)
07-04-2019 03:41 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem. I don’t see either parties interested.
07-04-2019 07:16 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 10:29 PM)panama Wrote:  Why would CSU want to come across the country?

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How is it any different than UMass or FIU?

Outliers
07-04-2019 09:01 AM
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Post: #72
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-03-2019 10:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  VCU would be a positive add, but I think St. Louis makes more sense. It’s a major city right in the heart of the conference. The league could take over Arch Madness.

Good point on Arch Madness with Tulsa, Wichita, SLU, Memphis, Cincinnati all within a reasonable distance.
07-04-2019 09:03 AM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem. I don’t see either parties interested.
Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.
07-04-2019 09:15 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 09:01 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(07-03-2019 10:29 PM)panama Wrote:  Why would CSU want to come across the country?

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How is it any different than UMass or FIU?

Outliers

UConn was more of a philosophical outlier than one of distance.

UMass and FIU are in the eastern time zone at least. Adding a new time zone with a middle of the road MWC team, why is that a marquee option?
07-04-2019 09:41 AM
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Post: #75
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem. I don’t see either parties interested.

Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.

That's about as well as it can be said. 07-coffee3
07-04-2019 09:44 AM
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Post: #76
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 09:44 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem. I don’t see either parties interested.

Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.

That's about as well as it can be said. 07-coffee3

He's not wrong---but as I said before, the more regional CUSA 1.0. CUSA 2.0, and CUSA 3.0 models have all failed---each being less successful than its predecessor. The AAC, using its somewhat unorthodox "best of the rest" frankenstein conference model has actually managed to find a degree of success that eluded all the previous failed incarnations of CUSA. An ugly piece of cardboard duct taped into the frame keeps the cold out better than a broken window. Just because it isnt elegant doesn't mean it doesnt work. 04-cheers
07-04-2019 12:31 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem.
Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.
That is true, so far as it goes. It does not address the question: What are the other choices? Is there any fan of UCF that wants to rejoin the MAC? Any fan of South Florida that wants to go back to CUSA, or the Sun Belt? Any fan of Cincinnati that wants to take the troll’s suggestion of following UCONN’s example of becoming Independent (or FCS) in football, and joining the Big East for everything else?
07-04-2019 12:58 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 12:58 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem.
Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.
That is true, so far as it goes. It does not address the question: What are the other choices? Is there any fan of UCF that wants to rejoin the MAC? Any fan of South Florida that wants to go back to CUSA, or the Sun Belt? Any fan of Cincinnati that wants to take the troll’s suggestion of following UCONN’s example of becoming Independent (or FCS) in football, and joining the Big East for everything else?
There isn't one. The other conferences are in the position they're in because they have decades of other standards and culture in place from before TV was a major factor. The AAC has the same problem that the Big East had before it, and that the Sun Belt and to a lesser extent the C-USA has, where it's just a bunch of indies chasing money and realizing they can get more together than separate. The AAC can't really be faulted for what it is, since it's more of a symptom of where we're at than anything.

Maybe the AAC schools will build a sense of togetherness over time that you don't really see often outside of the P5. They'd have to want to stay together first, and let's be honest, the first P5 opening that pops up you're going to see every member of that conference except maybe Tulane and Tulsa trying to get in.
07-04-2019 01:38 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 01:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 12:58 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem.
Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.
That is true, so far as it goes. It does not address the question: What are the other choices? Is there any fan of UCF that wants to rejoin the MAC? Any fan of South Florida that wants to go back to CUSA, or the Sun Belt? Any fan of Cincinnati that wants to take the troll’s suggestion of following UCONN’s example of becoming Independent (or FCS) in football, and joining the Big East for everything else?
There isn't one. The other conferences are in the position they're in because they have decades of other standards and culture in place from before TV was a major factor. The AAC has the same problem that the Big East had before it, and that the Sun Belt and to a lesser extent the C-USA has, where it's just a bunch of indies chasing money and realizing they can get more together than separate. The AAC can't really be faulted for what it is, since it's more of a symptom of where we're at than anything.

Maybe the AAC schools will build a sense of togetherness over time that you don't really see often outside of the P5. They'd have to want to stay together first, and let's be honest, the first P5 opening that pops up you're going to see every member of that conference except maybe Tulane and Tulsa trying to get in.


Tulane won’t just be trying they will be getting in.... more likely with everyone in the American... but definitely before a few... just watch...
07-04-2019 02:07 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Aresco opens the door for Colorado State
(07-04-2019 01:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 12:58 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 09:15 AM)Mav Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 07:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  Replacing one outlier with another on the other side of the country would be exactly why this conference has had an identity problem.
Oh no, the conference has an identity, a bunch of P5 strivers trying to use one another as stepping stones so their name gets called during the next round of realignment. Reality's starting to set in that they're not getting called up, so they're trying to position themselves as a conference of programs better than the other G5s. The "P6" bluster should be proof of that.

There is an identity, it's just cynical and doesn't offer the cohesion that the MAC's does.
That is true, so far as it goes. It does not address the question: What are the other choices? Is there any fan of UCF that wants to rejoin the MAC? Any fan of South Florida that wants to go back to CUSA, or the Sun Belt? Any fan of Cincinnati that wants to take the troll’s suggestion of following UCONN’s example of becoming Independent (or FCS) in football, and joining the Big East for everything else?
There isn't one. The other conferences are in the position they're in because they have decades of other standards and culture in place from before TV was a major factor. The AAC has the same problem that the Big East had before it, and that the Sun Belt and to a lesser extent the C-USA has, where it's just a bunch of indies chasing money and realizing they can get more together than separate. The AAC can't really be faulted for what it is, since it's more of a symptom of where we're at than anything.

Maybe the AAC schools will build a sense of togetherness over time that you don't really see often outside of the P5. They'd have to want to stay together first, and let's be honest, the first P5 opening that pops up you're going to see every member of that conference except maybe Tulane and Tulsa trying to get in.

Unlikley. The AAC is a made for TV conference that makes more money than any possible regional configurations using basically the same teams. Much like the pairing of the C7 with the football playing schools of the old Big East----it is a marriage of convenience that will last as long as there is a sufficient financial benefit.

I only see two ways for the AAC to create an "identity" that might create some real cohesion. One possibility is the conference goes nationwide, giving the league a unique place as the only nationwide conference in the country. Being associated with a league marketed as "America's Conference" might have that kind of cohesive appeal. The other idea is similar play on that same theme. If the AAC can get Army and Air Force to join, the AAC will create an attractive and patriotic identity as the "Home of the Academies" that could be appealing and a possible source of cohesive pride.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 02:22 PM by Attackcoog.)
07-04-2019 02:12 PM
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