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Why the AAC will hold at 11
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westwolf Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-26-2019 04:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  1. They need no waiver to play a CCG with 11

Aresco says they do need a waiver. Only with a round robin are you exempt. They won't play a 10 game conference sked.
06-29-2019 10:07 AM
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usffan Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 10:07 AM)westwolf Wrote:  
(06-26-2019 04:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  1. They need no waiver to play a CCG with 11

Aresco says they do need a waiver if they want to play without divisions. Only with a round robin are you exempt. They won't play a 10 game conference sked.

FTFY

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06-29-2019 10:09 AM
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Attackcoog Online
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2019 10:12 AM by Attackcoog.)
06-29-2019 10:10 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-28-2019 03:25 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Does a conference have to "declare" divisions or just stage a CCG and post-facto point to how they used their 13th-game exemption?

I'm not sure, but I think there are enough lawyers and "by-law lawyer wannabees" connected with NCAA sports to at least make the case that it does have to declare divisions. The precise wording is:

Quote:17.10.5.2.1. (b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game: (1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or (2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular season competition among all members of the conference.

The phrase "conducts round-robin, regular competition in each division" would certainly be argued (by the lawyers and lawyer wannabees opposing such a gimmick) to mean that the divisions have to exist at the time that the regular season round robin is being conducted ... which would require them to predate the winning of the division championship, so you can't form a division to pick a pair of winners after the regular season is concluded.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2019 10:18 AM by BruceMcF.)
06-29-2019 10:16 AM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 10:16 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(06-28-2019 03:25 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Does a conference have to "declare" divisions or just stage a CCG and post-facto point to how they used their 13th-game exemption?

I'm not sure, but I think there are enough lawyers and "by-law lawyer wannabees" connected with NCAA sports to at least make the case that it does have to declare divisions. The precise wording is:

Quote:17.10.5.2.1. (b) Conference Championship Game. One conference championship game: (1) Between division champions of a conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced in number as possible) and conducts round-robin, regular-season competition in each division; or (2) Between the top two teams in the conference standings following full round-robin regular season competition among all members of the conference.

The phrase "conducts round-robin, regular competition in each division" would certainly be argued (by the lawyers and lawyer wannabees opposing such a gimmick) to mean that the divisions have to exist at the time that the regular season round robin is being conducted ... which would require them to predate the winning of the division championship, so you can't form a division to pick a pair of winners after the regular season is concluded.

I think conferences as reasonable balance "and conduct". I am no lawyer but it appears the "and" would mandate conference round robin in the division.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2019 12:56 PM by msm96wolf.)
06-29-2019 12:55 PM
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
I think the rule is pretty clear the divisions are set before the start of play

I suppose if you get enough educated idiots in a room they could try and find a reason to believe that manipulating the divisions a the end of the year mattered like "we want a team that will lose to the good team, but not one that totally sucks bad"

see we want the 8-4 team not the 6-6 team and we don't want the 10-2 team though because they might beat the 12-0 team

this is the reasoning the Big 12 was stupidly looking at actually having divisions and maybe changing them up every two years based on past performance......but of course stupid stuff like that always fails and there is no way that humans locked in a room picking teams for a playoff would ignore that a conference purposely avoided a match up of a 10-2 team vs a 12-0 team so they could put the 8-4 team in there that looks "just good enough, but should still lose, but looks better than the 6-6 team"

or I think the other reason the Big 12 had was to avoid playing two teams that had played in the past month or so...which really how do you avoid that anyway when everyone plays everyone and still you are stupid enough to have everyone play everyone anyway so your CCG is a guaranteed rematch and no one is going to forget these teams have already played just because it was 7 weeks ago not 2 weeks ago
06-29-2019 01:23 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

AC,

With 11 and assume staying at 8 games, will it be possible for all teams to play the same amount of conference games? I truly have no clue if it is possible. I don't think that is a requirement but seems it could cause other issues if not everyone plays the same amount of conference games.
06-29-2019 02:12 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #68
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 02:12 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

AC,

With 11 and assume staying at 8 games, will it be possible for all teams to play the same amount of conference games? I truly have no clue if it is possible. I don't think that is a requirement but seems it could cause other issues if not everyone plays the same amount of conference games.

Not with uneven divisions and a round robin requirement. You're going to come up a few games short because the side with 6 teams will only need 18 (3 x 6) cross divisional games and the side with 5 teams will need 20 (4 x 5) cross divisional games get to 8 conference games. The two sides dont balance. Thus, you'll either need to give a few teams a waiver from having to complete the full divisional round robin or some teams will have to play one less or one more conference game (which actually doesnt require a waiver). Thats why I dont think anyone would actually vote against a waiver for that---because it doesnt stop the conference from having a CCG---it just stops complying with the rule from causing a major scheduling headache. Honstly, I think the ACC would vote for a full on rule change because it might come in handy one day if the ACC adds Notre Dame as a full member and dont really want to add a 16th.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2019 12:39 PM by Attackcoog.)
06-29-2019 02:33 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
Big 12 gets special treatment to get to play a CCG. AAC do not get that special treatment. I still think the SBC do not get the special treatment either until they add 2 more football all sports members like adding Chattanooga and Lamar to get to 12. AAC needs to grab ODU and they would not have to be worried about the future. None of the Indies will not join this unstable conference with unhappy campers.
06-29-2019 02:35 PM
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msm96wolf Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 02:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 02:12 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

AC,

With 11 and assume staying at 8 games, will it be possible for all teams to play the same amount of conference games? I truly have no clue if it is possible. I don't think that is a requirement but seems it could cause other issues if not everyone plays the same amount of conference games.

Not with uneven divisions and a round robin requirement. You're going to come up a few games short because the side with 6 teams will need 18 (3 x 6) cross divisional games and the side with 5 teams will only have 15 (3 x 5) cross divisional games to offset that need. Thus, you'll either need to give a few teams a waiver from having to complete the full divisional round robin or some teams will have to play one less or one more conference game (which actually doesnt require a waiver). Thats why I dont think anyone would actually vote against a waiver for that---because it doesnt stop the conference from having a CCG---it just stops complying with the rule from causing a major scheduling headache. Honstly, I think the ACC would vote for a full on rule change because it might come in handy one day if the ACC adds Notre Dame as a full member and dont really want to add a 16th.

I imagine the ACC and Big 10 might push the allowing for both options or none. AAC would need to vote with them and B12 probably will vote with it. I can see that helping the G5 conferences ensuring that get the two best teams which make NY6 spot more interesting. So the SEC would not be needed but I doubt the would have issue with this as well as long as they can keep 8 OOC games.
06-29-2019 03:04 PM
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TodgeRodge Offline
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 02:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Big 12 gets special treatment to get to play a CCG. AAC do not get that special treatment. I still think the SBC do not get the special treatment either until they add 2 more football all sports members like adding Chattanooga and Lamar to get to 12. AAC needs to grab ODU and they would not have to be worried about the future. None of the Indies will not join this unstable conference with unhappy campers.

they don't get special treatment the rules were changed

the rules were not strictly changed for the Big 12 the ACC was the first to make the proposal then the Big 10 eventually made changes that screwed the ACC.....that was not the fault of the Big 12
06-29-2019 04:10 PM
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 10:07 AM)westwolf Wrote:  
(06-26-2019 04:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  1. They need no waiver to play a CCG with 11

Aresco says they do need a waiver. Only with a round robin are you exempt. They won't play a 10 game conference sked.

They can play an unbalanced schedule. That wouldn't last long. They will go back to 12. Army & Air Force will be tried. After that its difficult to guess. Buffalo? UMass? Southern Miss? Northern Illinois? Rice? Marshall? I think that's about the extent of the list. Any of those 6 would say yes immediately.
06-29-2019 04:16 PM
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 02:33 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 02:12 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

AC,

With 11 and assume staying at 8 games, will it be possible for all teams to play the same amount of conference games? I truly have no clue if it is possible. I don't think that is a requirement but seems it could cause other issues if not everyone plays the same amount of conference games.

Not with uneven divisions and a round robin requirement. You're going to come up a few games short because the side with 6 teams will need 18 (3 x 6) cross divisional games and the side with 5 teams will only have 15 (3 x 5) cross divisional games to offset that need. Thus, you'll either need to give a few teams a waiver from having to complete the full divisional round robin or some teams will have to play one less or one more conference game (which actually doesnt require a waiver). Thats why I dont think anyone would actually vote against a waiver for that---because it doesnt stop the conference from having a CCG---it just stops complying with the rule from causing a major scheduling headache. Honstly, I think the ACC would vote for a full on rule change because it might come in handy one day if the ACC adds Notre Dame as a full member and dont really want to add a 16th.
Unbalanced schedules are a headache. AAC can do it. But somebody will tire of only having 7 or having to play 9 or having Navy play 6 and get to make Air Force and Army count as "conference games."
06-29-2019 04:20 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.
06-29-2019 04:59 PM
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RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 04:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.

The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2019 05:20 PM by TripleA.)
06-29-2019 05:18 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-29-2019 05:18 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 04:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:35 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  AAC Unlikely to Expand...Unless

NCAA by-laws state that any conference which holds a championship game (The AAC does) and is smaller than 12 teams MUST play a full round robin schedule. The initial sentiment among AAC members, who will hold a conference call on Friday, is to follow that path.

The conference is just starting a new 12-year $1 billion television contract with ESPN, which boosts payoff for each team from $2 million per season to slightly under $ 7 million per team. That amount was partially based on the AAC having a championship game in football.

For the AAC to meet the NCAA requirements, it would have to schedule an unprecedented 10 conference games per season. That is not likely to happen. AAC commissioner Mike Aresco said on Thursday he was confident the NCAA would grant the AAC a waiver on that requirement, wondering why the NCAA would enforce a rule that would basically require the AAC potentially raiding another conference to get back to 12 teams.

The quickest path for the AAC to get back to 12 teams would be to add one team in football only, similar to the arrangement Navy now has with the conference. The two most attractive teams who have independent status in football are Army and BYU

Link
https://collegesportsmaven.io/tmg/mark-b...jI3f7E2Qg/

This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.

The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.

No question, when the remaining G5 evaluate whatever the AAC proposes, they are going to do so in light of the impact it is likely to have on AAC chances to get the G5 autobid.

I think that what would pass muster with everyone would be a 9-game conference schedule with the two teams with the best conference records - regardless of their CFP ranking or overall record - playing in the CCG. IIRC, that is the Big 12 setup so that is the precedent.
06-30-2019 08:04 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-30-2019 08:04 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 05:18 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 04:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 09:47 AM)usffan Wrote:  This is not the first time I've seen this written. It is 100% factually untrue. Look no further than the Sun Belt Conference. They have 10 members. They play 8 conference games. They have 2 divisions. Their division champions play.

It is appalling how many "reporters" just write things without fact checking them. Or how easy it is to create a website, write something and have somebody cite it as fact.

USFFan

Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.

The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.

No question, when the remaining G5 evaluate whatever the AAC proposes, they are going to do so in light of the impact it is likely to have on AAC chances to get the G5 autobid.

I think that what would pass muster with everyone would be a 9-game conference schedule with the two teams with the best conference records - regardless of their CFP ranking or overall record - playing in the CCG. IIRC, that is the Big 12 setup so that is the precedent.

You can’t play nine games with 11 teams. You have the same problem: one team has to have an unbalanced schedule.
06-30-2019 11:50 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-30-2019 11:50 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 08:04 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 05:18 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 04:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 10:10 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Exactly. Ive already posted the exact verbiage from the NCAA handbook in another thread. There is no longer any reference to a minimum number of members required in a conference as a prerequisite for dividing into divisions (for the purpose of having a CCG). The only limitations are there can only be 2 divisions, the 2 divisions must be as close to equal as possible, and they must play a complete round robin within each division. There is no specific requirement that all teams play the same number of conference games.

I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.

The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.

No question, when the remaining G5 evaluate whatever the AAC proposes, they are going to do so in light of the impact it is likely to have on AAC chances to get the G5 autobid.

I think that what would pass muster with everyone would be a 9-game conference schedule with the two teams with the best conference records - regardless of their CFP ranking or overall record - playing in the CCG. IIRC, that is the Big 12 setup so that is the precedent.

You can’t play nine games with 11 teams. You have the same problem: one team has to have an unbalanced schedule.

Alright, is that true with 8 as well? Is there any way that an 11-team league can't have an unbalanced schedule?
06-30-2019 12:11 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-30-2019 12:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 11:50 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 08:04 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 05:18 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 04:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I agree with you about the wording of the NCAA rule, but maybe one reason for that is that a conference would be nutso these days to have a CCG and a situation where some teams are playing more conference games than others. That is just patently unfair to the teams that have to play more.

The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.

No question, when the remaining G5 evaluate whatever the AAC proposes, they are going to do so in light of the impact it is likely to have on AAC chances to get the G5 autobid.

I think that what would pass muster with everyone would be a 9-game conference schedule with the two teams with the best conference records - regardless of their CFP ranking or overall record - playing in the CCG. IIRC, that is the Big 12 setup so that is the precedent.

You can’t play nine games with 11 teams. You have the same problem: one team has to have an unbalanced schedule.

Alright, is that true with 8 as well? Is there any way that an 11-team league can't have an unbalanced schedule?

Thats why Ive said---maybe now is the time to just go ahead and address the rules regarding odd numbered leagues holding CCG games. Instead of waivers---just do a permanent fix to the rules so odd numbered conferences will have a reasonable and established way of handling a CCG.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2019 12:47 PM by Attackcoog.)
06-30-2019 12:45 PM
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Foreverandever Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Why the AAC will hold at 11
(06-30-2019 12:45 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 12:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 11:50 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(06-30-2019 08:04 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-29-2019 05:18 PM)TripleA Wrote:  The only clean way is to get a waiver or a rule change, play 8 conference games (or maybe 9 if Navy would budge), and let the 2 highest ranked teams play the CCG.

BUT, I think the other G5 schools would object, if they used the top 2 highest ranked (which Aresco has mentioned), and not the 2 with the best conference game records.

No question, when the remaining G5 evaluate whatever the AAC proposes, they are going to do so in light of the impact it is likely to have on AAC chances to get the G5 autobid.

I think that what would pass muster with everyone would be a 9-game conference schedule with the two teams with the best conference records - regardless of their CFP ranking or overall record - playing in the CCG. IIRC, that is the Big 12 setup so that is the precedent.

You can’t play nine games with 11 teams. You have the same problem: one team has to have an unbalanced schedule.

Alright, is that true with 8 as well? Is there any way that an 11-team league can't have an unbalanced schedule?

Thats why Ive said---maybe now is the time to just go ahead and address the rules regarding odd numbered leagues holding CCG games. Instead of waivers---just do a permanent fix to the rules so odd numbered conferences will have a reasonable and established way of handling a CCG.

There will some sort of schedule requirements so people can't just work it up, probably something like a certain percentage of teams "permanently set" and a set number of years to rotate to play each team in the conference. Also the rules will be set that the best conference record teams will play and rankings may only used to tie break.

So something like:

To hold a championship game with out a round robin of one or two divisions, a conference must be larger than 10 and set the schedule such that each team is in permanent alignment with one third of the teams (rounded up when a fraction) and must play each school in its conference at least once every four years in a home and home series. The championship must be contested between the teams with the two best conference records. Rankings may not be used to decide the two participants unless it is as a conference record tie breaker.




Examples:

For the SEC, ACC, and B1G (CUSA) ~14 teams~ to go divisionless they would have to play 5 teams in a permanent set up, and than play 4 games to rotate through the other eight teams home and home in four years. Total of 9 games.

For the PAC (AAC, MWC, MAC) ~12 teams~ they would have to play 4 teams in a permanent set up and play 4 games to rotate through the other seven teams in home and home in four years . Total of 8 games.

Should a super league of 16 or ND be given a spot in the ACC..
15 teams would require 5 permanent set up and 5 games to rotate through. Total games 10
16 teams would require 6 permanent set up and 5 games to rotate through. Total games 11

For 11 it would require 4 permanent set up, then 3 games to rotate through the other 6 teams in in four years. Total 7 games.

Teams of course could have more than the minimum requirement of conference games.



Once a complete rotation of home and home have been played against each conference opponent the "permanent" alignment can be altered and a new championship cycle begins. Each cycle must be completed according to the divisionless championship rules before a new alignment or a return to divisions for a championship through round robin can occur.
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2019 01:54 PM by Foreverandever.)
06-30-2019 01:53 PM
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