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This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
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HaymondAtThe4 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
Well I'm with you on the Forever War criticism!
06-16-2019 02:03 PM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #42
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 12:14 PM)ess Wrote:  
(06-16-2019 09:59 AM)Rasser Wrote:  That doesn't make it ok for Russia to do it to us at last check, and it CERTAINLY DOESN'T MAKE IT OK for someone who's running a national election domestically to encourage and accept help from a foreign GOVERNMENT, which is the real subject and seems to be getting overlooked in this discussion, and I doubt that's on purpose.

The question I posed was, shouldn't we hold the people who do those types of ops accountable? All I got was a denial that you weren't rationalizing.

As stated in my reply to Haymond (above).

I never suggested or implied that anything was OK.

BTW...who are the "the people" you are referring to? The Russians? U.S. citizens?

Mueller rendered his opinion.

No?

Hence this "outrage" is (somewhat) amusing to me.

It is (nothing more than) "political theatre" .

We have this LARGE group of people (neocons and "progressives", the deep state, the MSM, others who have a personal dislike for Donald Trump, etc) who are used to getting their way.

Their status quo has been upset (likely temporarily), and they don't like it.

They are beside themselves, and they don't know how to act

Their heads are ready to explode.

Hence they cling to "Russiagate".

Longing for the past, it's the best they can do.

And before anyone accuses me of liking/supporting Donald Trump.

Know that if I were forced to vote for a new president today, I'd vote for Tulsi Gababrd.

Mueller did give his opinion. "If the President didn't commit a crime, we would've said so".

That one? Right after STATING in his report, that he couldn't indict a sitting POTUS due to DOJ guidelines.

Plain as day. Not sure why being opinionated about the POTUS gaining office by illegal means is "outrage". And the ensuing investigation, which is still ongoing, rightfully so is a "RussiaGate" and political theater. Laws were broken, office was gained, and warrants an investigation.

We sure listened to Benghazi talk and investigations to ad nauseam which produced NOTHING. Unlike this one where people have been indicted, convicted and are serving time. That and the obstruction into that very same investigation is still being vetted and there are still attempts to thwart the same investigation.

You'd think if they were so innocent and this were all political theatre, both sides would let this run its course?
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2019 02:40 PM by Rasser.)
06-16-2019 02:35 PM
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ess Offline
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Post: #43
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 02:35 PM)Rasser Wrote:  Mueller did give his opinion. "If the President didn't commit a crime, we would've said so".

What a silly statement from Mueller.

It wasn't his place to say that.

His job wasn't to prove someone's innocence.

This is the United States of America.

That's not how things work here.

Mueller's statement couldn't have been more transparent.

"I don't have enough to recommend an indictment. It up to you (politicians) now to take the baton and run".

He could have VERY EASILY recommended an indictment for conspiracy. He could have VERY EASILY made his opinion known if he thought there was a case.

He didn't

Because there was none.

And those who are desperate now cling to the narrative of obstruction for a crime that didn't exist.
06-16-2019 04:48 PM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #44
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 04:48 PM)ess Wrote:  
(06-16-2019 02:35 PM)Rasser Wrote:  Mueller did give his opinion. "If the President didn't commit a crime, we would've said so".

What a silly statement from Mueller.

It wasn't his place to say that.

His job wasn't to prove someone's innocence.

This is the United States of America.

That's not how things work here.

Mueller's statement couldn't have been more transparent.

"I don't have enough to recommend an indictment. It up to you (politicians) now to take the baton and run".

He could have VERY EASILY recommended an indictment for conspiracy. He could have VERY EASILY made his opinion known if he thought there was a case.

He didn't

Because there was none.

And those who are desperate now cling to the narrative of obstruction for a crime that didn't exist.

Why wasn't it 'his place" to say that? Who states "his place"? How are things supposed to "work here"? Last I heard, the independent, special counsel is constantly being reviewed and revised.

We don't know the directives given to him at the end by Barr. To that note, there is a directive from the DOJ saying that you can't indict a sitting POTUS.

He gave the evidence, and examples, for the house, which the constitution spells out quite clearly, to investigate. The Special Counsel in this case was under the direction of the DOJ who had just recently got an appointee that was and is all about protecting Trump.

If Trump and everyone else in his campaign were so innocent, do you think they'd be lying, arrested, indicted and convicted at the rate that they have been? I do not.
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2019 04:55 PM by Rasser.)
06-16-2019 04:53 PM
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ess Offline
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Post: #45
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 04:53 PM)Rasser Wrote:  If Trump and everyone else in his campaign were so innocent, do you think they'd be lying, arrested, indicted and convicted at the rate that they have been? I do not.

Trump is a creep.

Many people who swim in his circle are creeps.

Being a creep isn't a crime.

Nobody has been indicted for conspiring with Russia.
06-16-2019 05:15 PM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #46
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 05:15 PM)ess Wrote:  
(06-16-2019 04:53 PM)Rasser Wrote:  If Trump and everyone else in his campaign were so innocent, do you think they'd be lying, arrested, indicted and convicted at the rate that they have been? I do not.

Trump is a creep.

Many people who swim in his circle are creeps.

Being a creep isn't a crime.

Nobody has been indicted for conspiring with Russia.

Please. Now this is just getting insulting.

Flynn called the Russian ambassador to discuss the lifting of sanctions during the transition and lied about doing it later.

The rest were indicted and one, Manafort is serving quite some time for lying about his Russian ties as they related to Trump and his campaign. And to that note, Mueller was only one investigation. SDNY is ongoing and so is the State of New York's.

Stone was arrested for conspiring with Russia and Assange, is acting up now trying to get a pardon, and the investigations that Mueller's spawned are far from over. I think the state of New York squeezes Manafort, effectively breaking down his stonewall and the wall crumbles right there for Trump. He can't pardon anyone there.
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2019 06:20 PM by Rasser.)
06-16-2019 06:19 PM
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ess Offline
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Post: #47
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 06:19 PM)Rasser Wrote:  Please. Now this is just getting insulting.

Insulting?

There's just a lot of folks who dislike Trump, and who have no sympathy for Republicans, that strongly disagree with you.

From The Nation:

A (very) left-leaning publication

The Mueller Report Indicts the Trump-Russia Theory

The long-awaited completion of Mueller’s probe, and the release of his redacted report, reveals this narrative—and the expectations it fueled—to be unfounded. No American was indicted for conspiring with Russia to influence the 2016 election.


Regarding Flynn:

Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak’s conversations with Trump campaign officials and associates during and after the 2016 election were the focus of intense controversy and speculation, leading to the recusal of Jeff Sessions, then attorney general, and to the indictment of National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

After an exhaustive review, Mueller concluded that Kislyak’s interactions with Trump campaign officials at public events “were brief, public, and non-substantive.” As for Kislyak’s much–ballyhooed meeting which Sessions in September 2016, Mueller saw no reason to dispute that it “included any more than a passing mention of the presidential campaign.” When Kislyak spoke with other Trump aides after the August 2016 Republican National Convention, Mueller “did not identify evidence in those interactions of coordination between the Campaign and the Russian government.”

The same goes for Kislyak’s post-election conversations with Flynn. Mueller indicted Flynn for making “false statements and omissions” in an interview with the FBI about his contacts with Kislyak during the transition in December 2016. The prevailing supposition was that Flynn lied in order to hide from the FBI an election-related payoff or “quid pro quo” with the Kremlin. The report punctures that thesis by reaffirming the facts in Flynn’s indictment: What Flynn hid from agents was that he had “called Kislyak to request Russian restraint” in response to sanctions imposed by the outgoing Obama administration, and that Kislyak had agreed. Mueller ruled out the possibility that Flynn could have implicated Trump in anything criminal by noting the absence of evidence that Flynn “otherwise possessed information damaging to the President that would give the President a personal incentive to end the FBI’s inquiry into Flynn’s conduct.”

Regarding Stone:

In January, veteran Republican operative and conspiracy theorist Roger Stone caused a stir when he was indicted for lying to Congress about his efforts to make contact with WikiLeaks. But Mueller’s indictment actually showed that Stone had no communications with WikiLeaks before the election and no privileged information about its releases. Most significantly, it revealed that Trump officials were trying to learn about the WikiLeaks releases through Stone—a fact that underscored that the Trump campaign neither worked with WikiLeaks nor had advance knowledge of its e-mail dumps.

Mueller’s final report does nothing to alter that picture. Its sections on Stone are heavily redacted, owing to Stone’s pending trial. But they do make clear that Mueller conducted an extensive search to establish a tie between WikiLeaks, the Trump campaign, and Stone—and came up empty. New reporting from The Washington Post underscores just how far their farcical efforts went. The Mueller team devoted time and energy to determine whether far-right conspiracy theorist Jerome Corsi, best known for promoting the false claim that Barack Obama was born outside the United States, served as a link between Stone and WikiLeaks. Mueller’s prosecutors “spent weeks coaxing, cajoling and admonishing the conspiracy theorist, as they pressed him to stick to facts and not reconstruct stories,” the Post reports. “At times, they had debated the nature of memory itself.” It is unsurprising that this led Mueller’s prosecutors to ultimately declare, according to Corsi’s attorney, “We can’t use any of this.”

In summary:

The Mueller report does not just dispel the conspiracy theories that have engulfed political and media circles for two years; it puts to rest the most popular, recent one: that Attorney General William Barr engaged in a cover-up. According to the dominant narrative, Barr was somehow concealing Mueller’s damning evidence, while Mueller, even more improbably, stayed silent.

One could argue that Barr’s summary downplays the obstruction findings, though it accurately relays that Mueller’s report does “not exonerate” Trump. It was Mueller’s decision to leave the verdict on obstruction to Barr and make clear that if Congress disagrees, it has the power to indict Trump on its own. Mueller’s office assisted with Barr’s redactions, which proved to be, as Barr had pledged, extremely limited. Despite containing numerous embarrassing details about Trump, no executive privilege was invoked to censor the report’s contents.

In the end, Mueller’s report shows that the Trump-Russia collusion narrative embraced and evangelized by the US political and media establishments to be a work of fiction. The American public was presented with a far different picture from what was expected, because leading pundits, outlets, and politicians ignored the countervailing facts and promoted maximalist interpretations of others. Anonymous officials also leaked explosive yet uncorroborated claims, leaving behind many stories that were subsequently discredited, retracted, or remain unconfirmed to this day.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2019 05:00 AM by ess.)
06-17-2019 04:24 AM
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Ken Barna Offline
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Post: #48
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
Dear ess,
What you fail to mention, because it would damage your case, is the very fact that many of Trump's associates, advisors, and cabinet members, were found guilty of lying. Many now in jail, and others to follow suit. If, they are found guilty of lying, what are they hiding?
This is the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding. Mueller left it up to the attorney general and congress to go after Trump. Strawman Barr won't do it, so it is up to congress to act, based on the silly notion that a sitting president cannot be indicted.
06-17-2019 09:33 AM
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ess Offline
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Post: #49
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-17-2019 09:33 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear ess,
What you fail to mention, because it would damage your case, is the very fact that many of Trump's associates, advisors, and cabinet members, were found guilty of lying. Many now in jail, and others to follow suit. If, they are found guilty of lying, what are they hiding?
This is the most corrupt administration since Warren Harding. Mueller left it up to the attorney general and congress to go after Trump. Strawman Barr won't do it, so it is up to congress to act, based on the silly notion that a sitting president cannot be indicted.

I don't have a case.

Mueller had a case

My "position" is that no American (Trump, his cronies, etc) were accused by Mueller of conspiring with the Russians

Try to follow along, Ken
06-17-2019 10:03 AM
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Ken Barna Offline
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Post: #50
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
Dear ess,
You most certainly have a case. You try and hide behind your logic that somehow there is no conspiring with the Russians, even though many people as I have stated are guilty of lying about their very contact with Russians. Try to at least be objective.
06-17-2019 10:40 AM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #51
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
Barr certainly downplayed the obstruction findings.

There are 10 counts of obstruction plainly outlined in the report if you read it and accepted the words for what they say, for yourself and not the summaries.

Flynn is awaiting sentencing as we speak, so the guilt was established. In fact the presiding judge at his first sentencing lost his cool and asked the prosecutors outright in an emotional moment if they had considered TREASON! He later apologized.

Manafort has been sentenced 7 years on one count and nearly 7 more on another, and is being transferred to GPOP, where I think he'll be forced to rethink his stance on not talking or making a deal. Plus, NYC is charging him and he won't be able to be pardoned. That story isn't finished in the least.

As for charging for conspiring with Russians, they didn't have enough evidence to charge.

NOT EXONERATED in the least.

And, this is far from over. Mueller isn't the only investigation, and his scope was limited from the start.

I especially like how on one hand, "Mueller is the final word", and then "Mueller is wrong and has an agenda" on the other.

Trump can stonewall the congress, dangle pardons indirectly, play his word games daily, it does't stop the investigation into whether he or his people committed illegal acts, conspired, financially or otherwise, to get elected.

Stone's trial is in November, and there are many more shoes to drop during this process. Which I suspect is why we're seeing such a rigorous stonewalling being performed now by Trump and the complicit GOP in the Senate.
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2019 03:04 PM by Rasser.)
06-17-2019 02:55 PM
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ess Offline
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Post: #52
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-17-2019 02:55 PM)Rasser Wrote:  As for charging for conspiring with Russians, they didn't have enough evidence to charge.

This has been my (only) point all along.

No recommendation ("not enough evidence") to charge anyone with conspiring.

Quote:NOT EXONERATED in the least.

Is that the/your standard?

Assumed guilty? Unless proven innocent?
06-17-2019 04:27 PM
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okgc Offline
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Post: #53
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-17-2019 04:27 PM)ess Wrote:  Assumed guilty? Unless proven innocent?

Widespread new standard in the USA except for the Clintons
(This post was last modified: 06-17-2019 05:32 PM by okgc.)
06-17-2019 05:30 PM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #54
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-17-2019 04:27 PM)ess Wrote:  
(06-17-2019 02:55 PM)Rasser Wrote:  As for charging for conspiring with Russians, they didn't have enough evidence to charge.

This has been my (only) point all along.

No recommendation ("not enough evidence") to charge anyone with conspiring.

Quote:NOT EXONERATED in the least.

Is that the/your standard?

Assumed guilty? Unless proven innocent?

From Mueller in his scope of his investigation, although he provided the evidence to extend the scope to a normal, criminal investigation. And, if this guy wasn't a sitting POTUS, he'd be indicted and in jail.

My standard? Really? How disingenuous! Our society has that standard, unless you've been arrested and are on trial. The person suspected of committing a criminal act may be presumed innocent, that's about where it stops.

BTW, Hillary Clinton was investigated NUMEROUS times by Congress for any decision she made that led to the Benghazi attack and how it was managed. Ten at last count. That, and she testified before the COP Congress twice. The "outrage" over Trump being investigated rings hollow here.

To be clear, I'm not a HRC fan, not even close. Gosh, I wouldn't have voted for her, just like I didn't for Obama his first run, if she hadn't have been running against a mealy mouth'd untrustworthy con man.

Just the dual interpretation, and the "Hillary derangement outrage" is a little amusing to me. Heard any good "Pizzagate stories" lately?! :-)
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2019 08:16 AM by Rasser.)
06-18-2019 07:58 AM
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Rasser Offline
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RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-16-2019 09:02 AM)Broncos83 Wrote:  Simply stated...President Marmalade is a joke, a criminal (“Individual #1” plus Lord only knows what else) and frankly dumber than a post. His interview on ABC with George S. was classic Trump. Lie, lie and lie some more. He knows his supporters are sucked into his cult and too stupid (yes stupid) to disobey their master. He’s a complete farce. Just an f’ing liar, plain and simple.

There is THIS.
06-18-2019 08:10 AM
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HaymondAtThe4 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
Do you guys support impeachment? Do you think the Democrats should pursue that? I'm a yes fyi.
06-18-2019 12:44 PM
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SilentStryk09 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-18-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Do you guys support impeachment? Do you think the Democrats should pursue that? I'm a yes fyi.

I'm of the opinion that if there is a belief it is necessary, it should be pursued simply for the fact of getting all of the information out in the open. The only way trump ever gets removed via impeachment is if he both wins in 2020 AND Dems take the senate AND don't lose the house. Either that or over the course of the impeachment proceedings something so crucially damaging is revealed that nobody can back him any longer.
06-18-2019 01:46 PM
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Rasser Offline
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Post: #58
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-18-2019 01:46 PM)SilentStryk09 Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Do you guys support impeachment? Do you think the Democrats should pursue that? I'm a yes fyi.

I'm of the opinion that if there is a belief it is necessary, it should be pursued simply for the fact of getting all of the information out in the open. The only way trump ever gets removed via impeachment is if he both wins in 2020 AND Dems take the senate AND don't lose the house. Either that or over the course of the impeachment proceedings something so crucially damaging is revealed that nobody can back him any longer.

I think doing impeachment investigation is going to be needed soon (House's version of indicting, the "due process" as it relates to the POTUS, see, "presumed innocent"), but not so much to remove him, but to get to the bottom of his stonewalling and out in to open for the country to see and decide. Only if the House exhausts all their investigative options and his stonewalling is allowed to remain, right now is premature and could potentially play right into his wannabe gangster hands.

A lot of subpoena's are going to courts right now, that needs to play out.

NFW does the Senate convict, even if the Dems win in a landslide in 2020 do they have enough votes in the Senate, takes a super majority 2/3'rd. I don't see any GOP senator swinging over ever, this isn't 1974 and there is no Barry Goldwater amongst them with the spine.

If this clown show loses in 2020, I doubt he even leaves voluntarily. He's that disjointed.

He's nuts.
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2019 03:55 PM by Rasser.)
06-18-2019 03:22 PM
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ess Offline
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Post: #59
RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-18-2019 07:58 AM)Rasser Wrote:  And, if this guy wasn't a sitting POTUS, he'd be indicted and in jail.

For conspiring with the Russians?

Quote:Our society has that standard, unless you've been arrested and are on trial.


I would strongly disagree.

You feel that way toward your friends? Family? People in general?

Quote:The "outrage" over Trump being investigated rings hollow here.

Who around here is exhibiting "outrage"?
06-18-2019 06:24 PM
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ess Offline
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RE: This treasonous cork soaker needs to go STAT.
(06-18-2019 12:44 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Do you guys support impeachment? Do you think the Democrats should pursue that? I'm a yes fyi.

I'm neutral on the question.

I think it would be entertaining.

But the juice likely not worth the squeeze.

My question is this.

If the Democrats believe Trump is guilty.

How can they justify NOT pursuing impeachment?
06-18-2019 06:26 PM
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